Ok, This REALLY bugs me, so i had to make a post about it.

At least 50% of half orcs have "A strongly sophisticated voice" and are intelligent. This is annoying. Half-orcs are supposed to be hot-headed morons. Why are almost all who get to sanctuary intelligible?! It also goes for paladin Halflings.

Im done now.

Sanctuary is somewhere in the Underdark. I think it's safe to say that the surrounding environ helps to weed out the stupid ones such that a greater proportion of intelligent halforcs make it to Sanctuary.

This wasn't always the case, There was once a time where every half-orc used to speak like a two year old. I guess intelligent half-orcs are the craze these days.

Caster13 Sanctuary is somewhere in the Underdark. I think it's safe to say that the surrounding environ helps to weed out the stupid ones such that a greater proportion of intelligent halforcs make it to Sanctuary.

True, but wouldn't it essentially reflect the best of the race? Half orcs can go into a rage and fight of monsters 20x their size, in theory. So, the moronic ones would survive to some degree also, and as they vastly outnumber the smart ones, it would almost reflect it.. Im just saying that, for me, its always nice to have 5 or 6 characters who make up the stereotypical base of the race.

I am not an expert on Realm's lore but I think Strongheart Halflings alignment tendencies would fit Paladin, especially if followers of Arvoreen (haven't spelled that in a while, might be wrong, but close enough)

I guess intelligent half-orcs are the craze these days.

Might have something to do with that Caveman Geico commercial....or maybe not.

-Kalos

Just because they act intelligent doesn't mean you have to treat them that way. ;) Racism is fun.

In fact, being racist toward intelligent half-orcs is even more fun than being racist toward stupid ones. It makes them very angry, and then you can say, "See! It proves my point! They're all uncivilized barbarians!"

Half-orcs are supposed to be hot-headed morons.

Actually, that is very far from the truth. The race gets a 2 point penalty on the Int stat, not an ability score cap of 8. A half orc with an int of 10 is just as smart as any normal fully blooded human. Though on average as a race a bit slower than humankind, and stereotypically "dumb", the wide range of Intelligence score options make it possible to have a very smart half orc. Just like you can have a fairly non-uber dexterous elf or halfling (for their race), or a dwarf with some leadership potential.

The moronic half orcs are hanging out somewhere, having a strong ale with dwarves who make as much sense shit-faced as sober, listening to some androgynous elf playing the harp, and watching some hyperactive halfling with a lisp stealing sweets.

You forgot the big nose gnomes tinkering with some useless contraption

Erm, intelligence is determined by INT, not race. Half-orcs can absolutely be raised intelligently, among humans. They are not full orcs.

True, but wouldn't it essentially reflect the best of the race? Half orcs can go into a rage and fight of monsters 20x their size, in theory.

...no, they can't. No more than a gnome can. I think you're thinking of Barbarians, which can be any race!

And! And! And! You also forgot the halflings who act like children. They're short, not young.

I think it can be interesting to do new things with unusual racial or class choices. Moreover, with 6 races and 12 classes to choose from, the same tired halfling rogues and half-orc barbarians can encourage people to try things that aren't mechanically sound simply on the basis that it is different.

I wouldn't ever play a half-orc sorcerer or wizard, myself, just because you're essentially creating a character that will always be nerfed. If I could do something interesting (such as cross-class with another class and get decent buffs) I might consider such an option, but a pure d4 caster half-orc, never. This isn't because I feel people who choose to do these things are poor players or I don't feel it makes sense, it's just that I have plenty of competant characters that can't survive. If I made this character, and for whatever reason it survived or prospered, I would feel that DMs and players were assisting me simply because I chose a purposefully weak character.

That said, I don't fault players who do these things, and believe that half-orc sorcerers and halfing barbarians make EfU more realistic and interesting. It's just not something I can do myself.

Also, halfling paladins are totally normal.

This is why Human should be the only player race.

Halflings are as versatile as humans. I've seen all classes with them. I've yet to see a gnomish Barbarian....maybe I need to check out team urdlen.

I've played half orc bards

I've played dwarf's with 14+ charisma

lets face it, saying that a race is unfit for a class is just pure opinion. I've seen all powerful half orc mages, I've seen powerful gnomish Fighters, I've seen Halflings that held the front for there compatriots in the retreat, I've seen halflings tank a quest. I've seen half orc druids, I've seen ,,,

You get my point.

Do not say that any race is unsuited to any class, it's you.

Any race can be any class basically. Some of the more exotic ones like a Half-Orc Paladin might need an application, but they can be done.

Concentrate on your own roleplay, let the DM's worry about drastic inaccuracies, and never, ever tell anyone else how to play his or her character. You'll find yourself having much more fun this way.

Edit:

That post was amazing Grot_Herder :roll:

Grot_Herder's post was sweet, concur.

Keep it up, the more reasonably intelligent half-orcs, the happier I am!

Less "ME SMASH YOUS!! You hummie dumb dumb, ahahhaha!" orcs please.

But....who else will we buff to mash quests without dumb half-orcs that don't know their geting ripped off on pay, potions AND loot?

Someone has to carry all the heavy loot!

I've found that dumb half-orcs that don't know how to use pronouns properly are surprisingly astute with mathematics (Only when gold is involved though! They can calculate the gold to be divided down to a decimal in an instant, yet non-loot related mathematics is impossible for them, especially the incredibly complex '1+1') and always remember to ask for their reward. They also possess superior knowledge of the most complex magical spells (So mages and clerics buff them) and never, ever let themselves be tricked out of the loot. (If someone tries to trick you, make a threat about "Smashy time", the highly intelligent mage who spent all of his spells buffing you will quickly back down)

That's how successful 6 intelligent half-orcs are played, don't get caught behind because you wanted that 20 strength!

It's fun to be a smart orc but pretend your retarded. Than when you get all buffed up you -demand- everything you want and anyone who wants to argue gets smashed.

Shipwrecked and Comatose I've found that dumb half-orcs that don't know how to use pronouns properly are surprisingly astute with mathematics (Only when gold is involved though! They can calculate the gold to be divided down to a decimal in an instant, yet non-loot related mathematics is impossible for them, especially the incredibly complex '1+1') and always remember to ask for their reward. They also possess superior knowledge of the most complex magical spells (So mages and clerics buff them) and never, ever let themselves be tricked out of the loot. (If someone tries to trick you, make a threat about "Smashy time", the highly intelligent mage who spent all of his spells buffing you will quickly back down)

That's how successful 6 intelligent half-orcs are played, don't get caught behind because you wanted that 20 strength!

So very, very, very, very true.

It made me cry a little.

And by human Secutor means kobolds only.

All race stereotypes should die.

Hammerfist0 It also goes for paladin Halflings.

With the majority of Halfling gods being Lawful Good or Neutral Good, paladins are entirely normal. The only exceptions being Urogalan, whom is Lawful Neutral, and Brandobaris (CN).

Halflings who act like children should be limited to those that are suffering major head trauma. Though that's alright, since we'll just feed them all to the 'moronic' halforcs. Though one thing I'd like to say while on the topic of Halflings- An evil Halfling is like a good Thayan; rare, almost unheard of. Though not impossible. Although, there would need to have been a lot happen to that poor little Hin to sway him to evil. The vast majority of halflings are good aligned, those that aren't tend to be neutral.

As for moronic halforcs. One that was raised by orcs? Sure. But what about one who was raised by humans? Naturally, they'd be about as smart as a human commoner (10 Intelligence, perhaps 11). Given the stereotypical halforc personality, they'd rather be out picking fights with smaller kids than paying attention to mummy teaching them how to write, though.

It's the models. They just scream big and dumb; even though Half-orcs tend to be closer to the Human size than Orc size, I would guess.

Seven foot, hulking monstrosities are a little too common!

Blubie As for moronic halforcs. One that was raised by orcs? Sure. But what about one who was raised by humans? Naturally, they'd be about as smart as a human commoner (10 Intelligence, perhaps 11). Given the stereotypical halforc personality, they'd rather be out picking fights with smaller kids than paying attention to mummy teaching them how to write, though.

It might frustrate them, it might make them seem ponderous, it will certainly affect their choice of specialization as an adventurer if they choose to become one, but it doesn't make them retarded. If Int 12 doesn't make you an Einstein, then Int 8 doesn't make you an animal that can talk.

Dear reader,

Even though I was merely making fun of the stereotypes themselves and nothing else, I still felt an apology was in order. Therefore, included is a transcript of the apologies made to the representitives of each stereotype affected.

G. Herder: Mr. Representative of the Dwarven Stereotype, I apologize for implying that the members of your race are nothing but a bunch of incoherent drunkards. Having been an incoherent drunkard myself on more than a few occasions, I can say with certainty that I understand what you have to deal with. We're just misunderstood!

Dwarven Stereotype: Ye'bst b'tting'fr a'fr' y' a'pro' an' ur' mud' m' 'rse.

[The representative strongly insisted that his accent be fully represented in the transcript.]

---------------------------------

G. Herder: Mr. Half Orc Rep, I'm sorry for imp-

Half Orc Stereotype HELLO DER 2 UZ!

G. Herder: Mr. Half Orc Rep, I'm sorry for implying that the members of your race are not the sharpest weapons on the weapon rack.

Half Orc Stereotype: LGF - TROLLZ

---------------------------------

G. Herder: Mr. Representative of the Halfling Stereotype, I apologise for saying that most of the members of your race are down with riding the sugar express from here to SKY-HIGH.

Hafling Stereotype: Meesa weeesa feeessaaaaa beeeseeea.

G.Herder: Say, any relation between you and that Jar Jar Binks puppet from that Episode 1 pos?

Hafling Stereotype: Fuck No.

---------------------------------

G.Herder: Mr and/or Mrs Representative of the Elven stereotype, I'm sorry for implying that the males of your race are actually just females with a relatively higher degree of butch in them. My bad.

Also, what time do you finish this harp playing gig you have here? I mean I do not want to sound too forward, but I was wondering if you'd like to perhaps catch a movie after? Hmm? I know an awesome Italian place just down the road... Dinner and movie? Hmm? Perhaps I can just give you my digits and you can give me little ring ding ding sometime? Get me on the horn? Hmm? Perhaps a midnightbootycallYOUKNOWWHATEVER.

---------------------------------

Sincerely yours,

G. Herder CEO and Chief Herder of Grot Herding Incorporated. Grot Herding Inc. - Herding today, for a brighter tomorrow.

And now back to you, Ronnie, in the studio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txhIrE99HMc

Gold, Mr. Herder.

Your post gets my seal of approval.

Grot Herder - Crying out our dark desires about affeminate Elves all night long.

That Forrest Gump person might have been me. I remember chiming in on this issue of low INT some time ago. As a teacher who deal s with special and regular ed students with access to IQ tests - I can say that there are plenty of low IQ people (80 or so) who can function quite normally, hold down a job, tlak about teh weather, and "survive" without looking dumb. Their deficiency comes out when put into an academic setting and they are asked to "compete" against average or above average IQ folks. Then their lack of ability to calculate, reason, and "think fast" is quite evident.

Anthee

Blubie As for moronic halforcs. One that was raised by orcs? Sure. But what about one who was raised by humans? Naturally, they'd be about as smart as a human commoner (10 Intelligence, perhaps 11). Given the stereotypical halforc personality, they'd rather be out picking fights with smaller kids than paying attention to mummy teaching them how to write, though.

No, half-orcs have naturally an Int of around 8-9 because of the -2 Int penalty. Modern theories about intelligence don't apply to FR, especially not to human-orc halfbreeds! The real issue is that people seriously overplay the effect of that -1 modifier in their character's day-to-day behaviour, personality, manner of speech, and so on. A person isn't mentally handicapped if they've an Int score of 8, they're just a bit slower than the rest. They're not drooling morons, they're more like Forrest Gump. (I recall someone else having mentioned this as an example before, props to them!)

It might frustrate them, it might make them seem ponderous, it will certainly affect their choice of specialization as an adventurer if they choose to become one, but it doesn't make them retarded. If Int 12 doesn't make you an Einstein, then Int 8 doesn't make you an animal that can talk.

That Forrest Gump person might have been me. I remember chiming in on this issue of low INT some time ago. As a teacher who deal s with special and regular ed students with access to IQ tests - I can say that there are plenty of low IQ people (80 or so) who can function quite normally, hold down a job, tlak about teh weather, and "survive" without looking dumb. Their deficiency comes out when put into an academic setting and they are asked to "compete" against average or above average IQ folks. Then their lack of ability to calculate, reason, and "think fast" is quite evident.

Anthee

Blubie As for moronic halforcs. One that was raised by orcs? Sure. But what about one who was raised by humans? Naturally, they'd be about as smart as a human commoner (10 Intelligence, perhaps 11). Given the stereotypical halforc personality, they'd rather be out picking fights with smaller kids than paying attention to mummy teaching them how to write, though.

No, half-orcs have naturally an Int of around 8-9 because of the -2 Int penalty. Modern theories about intelligence don't apply to FR, especially not to human-orc halfbreeds! The real issue is that people seriously overplay the effect of that -1 modifier in their character's day-to-day behaviour, personality, manner of speech, and so on. A person isn't mentally handicapped if they've an Int score of 8, they're just a bit slower than the rest. They're not drooling morons, they're more like Forrest Gump. (I recall someone else having mentioned this as an example before, props to them!)

It might frustrate them, it might make them seem ponderous, it will certainly affect their choice of specialization as an adventurer if they choose to become one, but it doesn't make them retarded. If Int 12 doesn't make you an Einstein, then Int 8 doesn't make you an animal that can talk.

I love orcs, they represent the "Other" in the way no other literary figure does. They are more other than any RL other, although the have elements of all of the classic stereotypes - the black man, the female, the privative. From Tolkien through to early DnD, they are always on the periphery, living away from the centers of civilisation, acting as a constant threat. The flip side of this is they are unambiguously evil, and killing one is seen to be a moral action. They are agents of chaos and destruction, they seek only to pull down civilisation and use its trappings to sate their own base desires.

Not surprising then, than somewhere along DnD's (and other RP games) history, the fascination of the other became strong enough that people wanted to play orcs. The urge to play the mythical wildman, the incarnation of destruction and havoc, became slowly appealing. Perhaps as a reflection of the increasing complexity of self/other relations in the 80's and onwards, or perhaps simply the desire to kill the boss at work. Of course today this transformation is complete, and on World of Warcrack one finds an orc or undead player no more unusual than a human or jew (*cough* sorry, gnome).

I think the half-orc has the most potential for interest of all the DnD races. Halfway between the privative and the civilised, they get to explore the line between self and other, between the tropes of stupidity and clarity. It is for this reason that I like smart half orcs, I like any half orcs that push the boundaries. Unfortunately they are so often associated with min-max and poor RP. The half-orc is still the most interesting race in DnD for me, because just by playing one you are automatically exposing the most interesting areas of morality in the game.

I think that Half-Orcs have as much a right as any to be smart and well spoken. The only thing is being able to role play it, due to prejudices against Half-Orcs they might not be able to have access to the best tutors and are usually expected not to be able to read. But as with anyone there are exceptions, what if his mother was well educated and raped in an orc raid. She would be able to teach him without the racial stereotypes that others put on them. And even in a non forced scenario if the child was wanted there would be more of a reason to teach it and watch it grow because it is your child. Also I honestly would like to see someone try to roleplay a Half-Orc monk WELL. Monks are trained in monasteries and are taught to read and write along with learning spirituality and martial combat. They are not street brawlers who were raised on their own instincts! Nor are they a monk because they get darkvision in the underdark and a +2 Str bonus and you need that extra bit of unarmed power that much more. On top of that, a finesse fighter is not a poison, just because they are strong Half-Orcs have no aversion to dual weapon fighting or a rapier, they can be fully adept with the use of any weapon they please. So please stop with the Barbarian, greataxe wielding, Einstein smart super Orcs.

...Glances at his vault finding three half orc monks and a finesse fighter

Goddamnit- *takes deep breath, thinking of Caddies*

Nevermind.

But as with anyone there are exceptions, what if his mother was well educated and raped in an orc raid. She would be able to teach him without the racial stereotypes that others put on them. And even in a non forced scenario if the child was wanted there would be more of a reason to teach it and watch it grow because it is your child.

Using your example, sure she could teach him, but that still does not take away the fact that Half-Orcs suffer a -2 to Intelligence because their race (as a whole) is not that adept to learning. Have you ever tried your best to teach someone something and they just can't "get it"? This is what it would be like trying to teach "most" half-orcs. Are there exceptions? Of course. But I think the point of this discussion was that "most" half-orcs should be realtively dim-witted.

If you are going to roleplay that 20+ Str, 14+ Con your half-orc character has, its only right to roleplay that 8 Int you took to get him there ;)

-Kalos

If you have made your half-orc int 8 then I doubt anyone, at least iin this conversation, would say otherwise than that you should roleplay it that way, however, not all half-orcs have int 8, but they may just as well have int 10, 12, 14 or even greater, depending on how the player chose to make his half-orc, and allocate his ability points.

I remind people of the fact that 8 is slightly below intelligent, not so thick you walk into walls as a pass-time. The average Half-Orc will be a bit slower at learning, and understanding, but still be able to speak without saying "Is wanting smashies."

I remind people of the fact that 8 is slightly below intelligent, not so thick you walk into walls as a pass-time. The average Half-Orc will be a bit slower at learning, and understanding, but still be able to speak without saying "Is wanting smashies."

At what Int score do you think "Is wanting smashies" an acceptable phrase? ;)

Not sure the way someone talks is entirely decided by Intelligence. To use an example, I think Tarzan is typically portrayed as a relatively smart individual (surviving alone in the wildreness), but he is no linguist.

-Kalos

I once had an 8 intelligence elf for a prelude. The way I played him, was a little dim, but thinks he's as smart as his kin, however he would use the wrong words in sentences, turning the entire meaning of what he spoke on his head.

Halfbrood I once had an 8 intelligence elf for a prelude. The way I played him, was a little dim, but thinks he's as smart as his kin, however he would use the wrong words in sentences, turning the entire meaning of what he spoke on his head.

Shakespeare did that also. I need to go find my 12th grade English teacher, I think Im on to something. XD

Malapropisms, they're called. I got my idea for it from Shakespeare, I think.

Now i see many posts to the primary message, i will answer to that one since i guess the discussion has slightly slipped to other subjects.

I really enjoy playing orcs too, and after trying a few "dumb" half orcs with 18 or even more in Strenght i realized the RP becomes much more interesting when you boost INT and even CHA.

Therefore i would not see why "most" of them would be considered to be witless brutes; anyway such char would not survive and would die early (which eventually happens fast on the server)

Now everyone keeps control of that, i am not telling that dwarves should be high CON and low CHA; every char on the server is unique which makes the RP ambiance much more interesting; This would maybe logical to assume that the regular half orc is a bit less intelligent than the average, but don't be surprised if you meet the exception and I would not presume to tell other players how to build their char on the basis of the racial bonuses/maluses.

Keep playing half orcs who are not so dumb! Cheers all

I think you just hit on it, at what intelligence. Even the truly developmentally diabled are generally better than "Is want icecream". Now, take a look at the language learners in my classroom - there we have something! "Is want smashies" would not likely be just the result of low intelligence, but WOULD be the result of someone who might have a tenuous grasp of their native language and who was trying to speak in another without full mastery. So, sure, "Is want smashies" would be plausible but probably not a common error (of course, I'm not sure what sort of grammar orcish has or what sort of transferance errors would be likely to occur....)

I'll stop now :(

Kalos

I remind people of the fact that 8 is slightly below intelligent, not so thick you walk into walls as a pass-time. The average Half-Orc will be a bit slower at learning, and understanding, but still be able to speak without saying "Is wanting smashies."

At what Int score do you think "Is wanting smashies" an acceptable phrase? ;)

Not sure the way someone talks is entirely decided by Intelligence. To use an example, I think Tarzan is typically portrayed as a relatively smart individual (surviving alone in the wildreness), but he is no linguist.

-Kalos

I played Vruuk - a certain 9 int and 11 wis half-orc. He knew rudimentary math (usually just rounded off gold and such) and I played him with more animal like insticts than anything. That was the key to his survival, he wasn't smart enough to figure out if someone was scamming him - but he knew it somehow, because his common sense told him that drows are vile and ebul! However, the speach impetiment I gave him was more for scenic and humouristic effect than anything!

The difference is that many who play half-orcs tend to either downplay their orcish heritage to much or overplay it completly? I think it's the fact that there are fewer qualitative half-orcs with interesting race-dilemma going on rather than players who actually want to play an orc or human with a huge muscules phenotype?

.. I don't know.

Voular I played Vruuk - a certain 9 int and 11 wis half-orc. He knew rudimentary math (usually just rounded off gold and such) and I played him with more animal like insticts than anything. That was the key to his survival, he wasn't smart enough to figure out if someone was scamming him - but he knew it somehow, because his common sense told him that drows are vile and ebul! However, the speach impetiment I gave him was more for scenic and humouristic effect than anything!

The difference is that many who play half-orcs tend to either downplay their orcish heritage to much or overplay it completly? I think it's the fact that there are fewer qualitative half-orcs with interesting race-dilemma going on rather than players who actually want to play an orc or human with a huge muscules phenotype?

.. I don't know.

I would play a half-orc.... but -insert good excuse here-

Well, If we cant got to the low Int level of "Me want smashies", do we have to app for an full orc for such pleasure?

The Beggar

Half-orcs are supposed to be hot-headed morons.

Actually, that is very far from the truth. The race gets a 2 point penalty on the Int stat, not an ability score cap of 8. A half orc with an int of 10 is just as smart as any normal fully blooded human. Though on average as a race a bit slower than humankind, and stereotypically "dumb", the wide range of Intelligence score options make it possible to have a very smart half orc. Just like you can have a fairly non-uber dexterous elf or halfling (for their race), or a dwarf with some leadership potential.

Small oppinionated correction on that, being that Half-orcs don't get a bonus skill point/level, or a bonus feat at level 1. They might be as intelligent, but don't seem have the learning capacity of humans. :P

Now for my commentary on smart half-orcs. I think this is a blessing to have on a RP server. Consider that many half-orcs may think they're fully human. Also, compared to the biography-lacking, dev-crit bound powerbuild with 6 intelligence and 8 charisma, I welcome sweet-talking, intelligent half-orcs looking to RP.

As for halfling paladins, it seems to me that if there was an established order of paladins in Sanctuary for a halfling God or Goddess, that this would be very possible. However with that said, I like ranger/fighter stronghearts much more than paladin stronghearts, for the reason that strongheart halflings have a sort of... martial intelligence about them as I see it, moreso than an overriding sense of piousness and loyalty.

How I would love to see an order of sling-wielding Strongheart halfling fighter/ranger/weaponmasters emerge in a persistant world.

EvilPig

Small oppinionated correction on that, being that Half-orcs don't get a bonus skill point/level, or a bonus feat at level 1. They might be as intelligent, but don't seem have the learning capacity of humans. :P

Now for my commentary on smart half-orcs. I think this is a blessing to have on a RP server. Consider that many half-orcs may think they're fully human. Also, compared to the biography-lacking, dev-crit bound powerbuild with 6 intelligence and 8 charisma, I welcome sweet-talking, intelligent half-orcs looking to RP.

As for halfling paladins, it seems to me that if there was an established order of paladins in Sanctuary for a halfling God or Goddess, that this would be very possible. However with that said, I like ranger/fighter stronghearts much more than paladin stronghearts, for the reason that strongheart halflings have a sort of... martial intelligence about them as I see it, moreso than an overriding sense of piousness and loyalty.

How I would love to see an order of sling-wielding Strongheart halfling fighter/ranger/weaponmasters emerge in a persistant world.

No weapon mastering Ranged weapons. :(

And you are right there, Powerbuilded h-orcs *are* annoying as hell. But at the same time having Half-orc wizards outnumber Half-orc barbs by far is.... annoying.

I can understand the source of that frustration. Perhaps it's people in search of a unique character concept, that being an intelligent half-orc. I wish we could see more of the "intelligent fighter" concept. Wizards aren't the only ones who can have high intelligence scores. How I love warriors that use their brains.