I realize DE has been debated ceaselessly, and many think the ability is lame and torpedoes RP and detest it in general.

Personally I feel it is as much a burden than an advantage, and it generates more RP rather than less. I've tried to make the knowledge that someone is evil a responsibility of my character to try to save or help that person if possible, and have an active friendship with an evil that is quite interesting.

I agree that the, "Your heart is black, you may not assist us on this mission" announcement is lame and destroys the possibilities that exist.

Anyhow, I really don't like the response to a failed will check being that a character is somehow thrown to the ground in the overwhelming shock of an evil presence.

Please. Where's the fun in that? Why would a high level paladin or paladin build become completely useless for a while in the presence of strong evil?

I'd suggest another check be made to see if the character can hide their revulsion or overt reaction to the evil character. Or at least make the physical response as "dazed" rather than flopping on the ground.

I remember my own paladin only ever became dazed. I think you only get knocked down when someone is a near embodiment evil (or you only have a few paladin levels; it's relative).

The people that are most at risk for getting overwhelmed are people with only one or two paladin levels.

Paladins feel an amount of discomfort, nausea, or pain when they look at evil. Its not damaging, but its what they use to identify and understand the presence of evil. You only get dazed for faint when they are much higher level then you are, and then only if their aura is dark enough.

Edit: as ScottyB Said!

Gwydion Why would a high level paladin or paladin build become completely useless for a while in the presence of strong evil?

Yup, Snoteye's right. It uses your Paladin Levels and Good points against how high a level they are and how many evil points they have. The Evil points are quite possibly the most sensetive factor, as a level 4 who can't gain any more evil points can knock down someone who a level 8 on the same evil he started with can't.

I agree that the, "Your heart is black, you may not assist us on this mission" announcement is lame and destroys the possibilities that exist.

Who says this is lame? I certainly do not. This is far superior in most situations to a paladin LYING about why they're rejecting a character, which has never made sense to me at all yet is something I see a fair amount.

Anyhow, I really don't like the response to a failed will check being that a character is somehow thrown to the ground in the overwhelming shock of an evil presence.

Please. Where's the fun in that? Why would a high level paladin or paladin build become completely useless for a while in the presence of strong evil?

I'd suggest another check be made to see if the character can hide their revulsion or overt reaction to the evil character. Or at least make the physical response as "dazed" rather than flopping on the ground.

This is generally only an issue for extremely low level paladins fighting major evil or characters that are multi-classed. Any character with more than a handful of paladin levels is unlikely to be stunned. I will concede that a level 1paladin/20 character probably shouldn't be stunned so easily as a normal level 1 paladin, but it's something we'll have to think about whether we want to change it or not.

At present, I am pretty sure there are a series of checks relating to simply being overwhelmed, to disgusted/dazed, to collapsing.

Howland

I agree that the, "Your heart is black, you may not assist us on this mission" announcement is lame and destroys the possibilities that exist.

Who says this is lame? I certainly do not. This is far superior in most situations to a paladin LYING about why they're rejecting a character, which has never made sense to me at all yet is something I see a fair amount.

Sure seems unknightly to say that, not lame, but definitely not knightly. As a paladin, you're the embodiment of honor, tact, and justice.

It is honorless to insult someone for crimes or acts that you lack evidence of concretely, to label them as evil without knowing what misdeeds they've done--or if they today strive to correct those misdeeds.

It is tactless and rude to call someone tainted who you have met only a moment, even if they are tainted. Paladins must be polite and chivalrous in most, if not all orders.

It is unjust to hold one guilty of a crime, indeed, the crime of "evil" without actually knowing their deeds, acts, or the reason they fell from grace. Justice would demand that you speak to that person and learn the truth of what happened, and so judge them fairly.

Detect evil is an ability a god grants to paladins so they do not unwittingly travel with evil doers and aid them in their evil ways, and so they can know who in a battle they can smite.

It isn't there as a tool to say, "Joe's evil folks! I advise everyone on the townhall steps to avoid him."

Ah, it's a level thing then. I can understand that.

Thanks.

Perhaps some paladins are tactful, but many are not. Either way, the deity of that paladin is directly indicating through a divine, holy gift that the person/creature has an evil nature according to the cosmic and objective nature of good/evil. I think most paladins would make this clear, and not stoop to excuses or lies.

Every paladin will have their own way of doing it, of course.

That response hardly addresses that all paladins are honorable and seek justice.

Those pathetic "You is ev0l! responses" seem all too simplistic and not in keeping with the dignity and composure that a paladin should maintain. Holy gift or not, you have the ability only to sense a taint in someone's soul--not to see why it is there, whether the soul in question seeks redemption, whether the soul in question needs your aid--just to sense the taint.

Paladins are suppose to have wisdom, and wisdom would dictate that rather than declare openly "You be tainted lollol" in the markets, that they evidence their decision not to travel with an honest, but just and honorable manner.

Of course, your setting surely can be different and if it is totally in line with the god's dogma that all paladins can ignore just and honorable statements about another man's soul in public, you can't argue with that.

That doesn't mean you lie, but statements such as, "I do not wish to travel with you until I know you better" are finer statements than "You're evil and my god hates you!" or "I sense an unholy taint in you bub". Even something as straight forward as, "Can I speak with you privately for a moment, over here sir?" followed by "I can not travel with you, I sense your taint, but will not seek to embarrass you publicly by declaring it unless you press the issue. Later, if you wish to aid me in the future, we should speak and discuss the state of your soul and how best to help you find salvation."

Those are paladin-like responses. Not shout outs for good on Townhall stairs. Unless this isn't up for discussion because its totally different in your setting.

All good arguments Oroborous, but in the world of D&D I think the ability to detect evil allows many paladins to skip the seek justice part and deal with the person as if they are evil.

Discovering their crime to seek proper justice is an effect of our modern day rules, or historical examples. Paladins have the ability to decide evil based on a holy power, and depending on the dogma of their god should act accordingly regardless of more modern or historical codes of chivalry/justice.

It definitely works better in a PnP game than an online game where you are using it against other players and not just NPCs.

Actually, those arguments come out of the Player's Guide to Paladins and the Book of Exalted Deeds.

You may want to look specifically at the section about how it is more important to redeem evil souls than to smite evil souls. The Detect Evil power is often seen as a tool to find evil and smite it, expose it, and fight it.

It is best explained in these books as a tool to find evil, and confront it. The worst way to confront evil is to meet someone for the first time and scream, "you're evil! I won't travel with you." The best way is to note someone who is evil, confront him about it, but give them the chance to ask for atonement before you turn them away completely.

Sadly, the hard-core NWN roleplay community seems to have latched onto the idea that paladins don't travel with evil much more thoroughly than they've accepted the idea that paladins seek above all to reclaim souls lost to evil. Again, sourcing the Book of Exalted Deeds and referencing basic Realmslore--afterall, every soul you smite and send to hell is a tool for a demon and another weapon in its armies--every soul you save is a soldier brought to fight for goodness and justice.

You save few souls with the "Hey! Jim's evil everyone!" approach, sure some paladins may take it, but I'd expect them to be ultimately guided down a more mature path by their superiors or by wiser souls.

You may even want to read Plato's Republic, Books 1-4 I think, which are in fact, the very origin of how justice is defined in Dungeons and Dragons according to Gygax and others. One of Plato's basic premises is that the truly just person can not be rude, or have rude thoughts, or show discourtesy.

I think DE, it's use and subsequent responses to it's IC use, is fine as it is for a single reason: it depends on the players involved.

Some of us in this community are fantastic storyweavers and excellent actors when it comes to RPing. Others are not. And even more still are somewhere in between.

Some people just may not have the ability, be it lack of time, creativity or knowledge of the english language, to come up with something more cordial or polite than 'yer evil, take a hike'.

While I don't disagree that Paladins should be cordial, paladins are still mortal beings charged with the duty of invoking the will of their god. If a god is particularly enraged by another god or his followers, the Paladin should (and likely would) also become equally enraged by the same thing having become, essentially, a mortal extension of his god.

So there will be times when the paladin is doing all he can to restrain himself from saying far worse things than "There is something about you sir that I don't feel comfortable with. I am sorry, I cannot allow you to join us."

Also keep in mind that party forming can take a while and I'll admit that when I've spent like 40 minutes trying to get a group for something going, sometimes I just don't want to stop and start a long-winded philosophical discussion with an evil person who comes up to me as we're clearly heading out as to why I don't want to bring them with me.

alright I talk too much....time to stop typing.

Oh, I don't disagree with you Djspectre--much. ;)

Paladins are just human, sometimes they're impatient and want to get their quest underway, and they may snap, they may be rude, they may just say "Look sir, stop nagging me to go on my adventure, you're evil as sin and I can see this as plain as day."

The point is, there are more chivalrous methods of resolving this situation, and those are the methods that paladins will generally be aspiring to. This factoid tends to get forgotten too readily.

To be honest, I've been arguing this for a few months now, and doing the pertinent reading that I was suggesting earlier--and its all making me want to play a paladin that truly tries to uphold the full gamut of the paladin code-not merely the bare bones version that I think is more widely embraced by the PW community we are in.

It'll certainly be a huge challenge to move beyond it, which can be entertaining.

An evil character of mine once got into a contact with a Paladin. We both decided to take our talk to more private chambers, and I, together with her and her servant, engaged in a courteous talk. We talked back and forth, I don't correctly remember what is was about -nor is it important-, but her servant brought in cups of wine on a tray, and then spilled it all over my character. My character was outraged, and for a moment his kind charade faltered and he just pummeled the servant in the face. It was then that the Paladin got a look on her face, a self-contempt smirk in which you could read "See, I've known it all along but here is my proof your a truly a wicked man. I, sir, see through your petty acting."

I found it marvelous, and I think this ought to be a good example for other Paladins.

Its possible that the idea of non detection of alignment items and spells could be introduced ..as most hidden evil types would be using non detect in some manner. One could not hope to infiltrate being around paladin without some type of warding .. not sure how this would work ..and paladin arent the only classes that can detect ..then theres the classic old detect good or detect evil spells ..allthough mech wise ..probably a non issue ? .

We have this already!

Phaze Its possible that the idea of non detection of alignment items and spells could be introduced ..as most hidden evil types would be using non detect in some manner. One could not hope to infiltrate being around paladin without some type of warding .. not sure how this would work ..and paladin arent the only classes that can detect ..then theres the classic old detect good or detect evil spells ..allthough mech wise ..probably a non issue ? .

I don't recognize your forum name, so I'll assume you're new (Welcome to the server by the way!)

There are ways to conceal your evil nature from the paladins detect evil ability already in place in EfU.

Oroborous

Howland

I agree that the, "Your heart is black, you may not assist us on this mission" announcement is lame and destroys the possibilities that exist.

Who says this is lame? I certainly do not. This is far superior in most situations to a paladin LYING about why they're rejecting a character, which has never made sense to me at all yet is something I see a fair amount.

Sure seems unknightly to say that, not lame, but definitely not knightly. As a paladin, you're the embodiment of honor, tact, and justice.

It is honorless to insult someone for crimes or acts that you lack evidence of concretely, to label them as evil without knowing what misdeeds they've done--or if they today strive to correct those misdeeds.

It is tactless and rude to call someone tainted who you have met only a moment, even if they are tainted. Paladins must be polite and chivalrous in most, if not all orders.

It is unjust to hold one guilty of a crime, indeed, the crime of "evil" without actually knowing their deeds, acts, or the reason they fell from grace. Justice would demand that you speak to that person and learn the truth of what happened, and so judge them fairly.

Detect evil is an ability a god grants to paladins so they do not unwittingly travel with evil doers and aid them in their evil ways, and so they can know who in a battle they can smite.

It isn't there as a tool to say, "Joe's evil folks! I advise everyone on the townhall steps to avoid him."

Knight is a seperate D&D class, though not a base one. A paladin is not a knight but a vanquisher of evil. Evil people can be just as knightly as the next person.

Just my 0.2 cent: I think the biggest issue with DE on EfU is that it is made as a chat text command instead of a useable item with proper animations. DE is a spell like ability which in PnP can get you an juicy attack of opportunity in your face. It is not just glancing on someone than knowing (s)he is evil. In PnP it needs 3 rounds of continous concentration to pinpoint the exact source/person.

As it is a chat command now it makes it constantly spammable without much fun on the evil char's side. If it were a usable item, like some clerical domain powers with visible animation tied to it it would make a good change.

Or, as an alternative, maybe when a char receives a DE attempt (s)he could get a message of something like "you feel some presence trying to touch your very soul".

Death Attack doesn't require you to spend three rounds studying your target, either. My (very) personal opinion is that, if you can't deal with paladins having DE, don't play evil or at least make sure you have access to means to hide your alignment. Making DE work like in PnP, aside from it requiring that we modify an already confusing script, isn't going to stop people from spamming the ability anyway.

We also don't like widgets. >.>

Having DE is not my problem. The possibility to abuse/spam it what concerns me a little. If it couldn't be done hidden way (chat text command) but a way which would be noticable for those around would help a lot to RP it out by both involved party and prevent spamming.

And if 'death on widgets' are the rule :) maybe just including a call for an animation sequence in the script of DE would be a solution?

I suppose that the DM team will probably reward a paladin that every time emotes like "he squints at the stranger, furrowing his brow and concentrating" or "his gaze pierces the newcomer, seemingly reaching deep into his soul" or "touching his temples, he mutters 'Helm, reveal the wicked to thy servant'". In opposition, a DE spammer will get the info, but not the potential juice.

TurtlePod I suppose that the DM team will probably reward a paladin that every time emotes like "he squints at the stranger, furrowing his brow and concentrating" or "his gaze pierces the newcomer, seemingly reaching deep into his soul" or "touching his temples, he mutters 'Helm, reveal the wicked to thy servant'". In opposition, a DE spammer will get the info, but not the potential juice.

Yeah... if you're optimistic that a DM will catch or pay attention to that >_>