" If Only.."

[Cruzel]

Neverwinter nights is a pretty unique game. There are few games out that have a world building system that rivals the one sported by NWN. Sure, games like WoW and EVE and other MMORPG's have fan-made or leaked software to build/run custom servers, but few have the capability to mimic NWN's fairly easy to use toolset and accompanying scripting language. Neverwinter Nights, both original and Sequel, are maybe the Pinnacle of online role-playing games, in their truest form because of this. Despite the lore and history which is deep for some games, with intricate settings and storylines, many of the games recently released such as WoW and EVE, Age of Conan, Tabula Rasa, etc; Most players of these MMORPGs simply take the 'role' of the class as it is, for some/most their goals simply to level up, with no thought of role-playing as we know it.  Neverwinter Nights has servers like this, but they also have servers like EFU, Arabel, etc. Servers where people put their heart and soul into making the setting and world come alive; This in my opinion, is the purpose of an RPG. An amazing setting, coupled with dedicated Devs and Players, can make even a sub-par game, a truly amazing experience.

 Yet for all this awesome, there are still many things that NeverWinterNights cannot do; It has it's bugs, it has it's limitations.  For all the customisation the Toolset offers, we cannot change the hardcoded limits that sometimes stand in our way like a brick wall; Often we are forced to say "If only.." because the engine limits us in a way that without the source code, we cannot change. And so our environment will always be a flawed one, something I think we all already know;

But what if we could remove these limits, these hardcoded brick walls? What if we truly had the freedom to code and implement anything that we could possibly think of? What if we could design new mechanics, new classes, new rulesets? What if we could control every aspect of our server, to create a world that is truly our own; A world for role-players, designed for role-players in every aspect?

"If only.." - I say to hell with that. Today's gaming industry is convoluted with games designed to appeal to the A.D.D of today's youth. Today's "RPG"' is hardly so; The limit of the RPG being set as the character class being taken, defined when heading to a dungeon or area to smash enemies for XP to gain levels and loot. To me, True RPG's are a lost concept, which seems to only truly  live on in user made content in games like NWN.  The gaming companies of today will not likely make a 'true RPG' as somewhat defined above, simply because there is probably not enough market for it compared to the snivelling youth and adult alike who simply want to see blood, crushing, mayhem, and the bewbs of their hawt female gaming avatar.

By now you're probably wondering if I'm actually going anywhere with this; I am, actually.  

I am making this post, because even though NeverWinter Nights is not in itself a 'True RPG', servers like EFU have made  it so.  Servers like EFU have inspired me to try to start what the big companies will not; To build a new, True RPG. As self centered as I have made myself seem in the past; I cannot do this alone. Sure, I can work on coding for a client/server framework - But there is so much more that is needed. Graphic design, model work, most likely a website, writing/storyline, etc. And that is just the beginning. To make a long story somewhat shorter, I am asking for help in making this dream come true. It would take a long time, almost definately more than a few months and maybe even a year (or two) for a volunteer team to put out something like this, assuming we release a somewhat smaller sized world, and quickly expand from there.


TL : DR Version;

I am looking for a team to help make an entirely new game, designed to be a True RPG, inspired by worlds like EFU and CoA. If you have talent in the following and wish to help, send me a forum PM;

Art/Drawing/Graphic Design - Handrawn, computer art, computer animation. Even if you don't know how to use a computer but are a decent artist, concept art can go a long way towards planning/concepting the models on the computer.

Scripting/Programming; Most likely C++, HTML, SQL, PHP, Java, LUA, or other scripting languages will be very useful, as a number of things needed to be coded, such as the game client/server, map/item creation kits, admin tools, etc.. not all necessarily needing to be done in the same language.

Writing/Concepters; Every RPG needs a setting, background story, etc. At the moment this is a completely blank slate, anything and everything is possible at this time.

*Anyone at any level of experience at any of the above, your contribution to this team project is/will be appreciated. If you do not posess software to accomplish scripting/animation/modelling, I can most likely arrange for you to get what you need, free of charge + some tutorials to get you started if you need them.

As said above, PM me if you are interested.

[Garem]

Sounds neat. Best of luck.

-No-talent (computer-related) hack

[tooh]

Every game must have a concept, maybe not  new rules, maybe not a new engine.
I had see many "worlds" ported for NWN, with some drawbacks and some creativity, isn't only make a true RPG, is about define a vision and a dream.
Maybe like Dune, LOTR, Harry Potter, any those is a big challenge to realize.
What vision will be a shift ?

ps. I can code and script in any of those languages, but by power, design and portability (Linux, Windows and Macs) I prefer LUA.

[Lansert]

I would love to join you, but I too am making a game.  However it is not electronic (gasp) but is paper and pencil (more gasp).  It too is an RPG.

But the idea of making a story line for another whole RPG is very tempting.  Oh well, I am getting the final bits of it done now and it would be a bad idea to take my creative attention away from it, or put half into one game and half into another.

Good luck though!  May the gods of gaming help you create the RPers paradise.

[Letsplayforfun]

Cruzel, while i understand you wish to build a game as close as true rpg can come, i believe a computer game in itself has limitations one cannot overcome without the permanent presence of a DM. You will never script every possible option players can think of. If you are a perfectionnist, i'm afraid you will be frustrated by the ever present unsatisfaction that is bound to happen in your building project.

Your suggestion is certainly appealing for me, as i'm getting the essentials of scripting via the NWN community site, etc. More: I'm someone with time, more than 20 years of different paper rpg experiences, who like any older dm has build two or three (actually more) different world settings with custom rules, history geography, cultures, etc. I'm learning the scripting essentials of NWN, and can already do most basic stuff to run a basic module.

But the truth is, i'd rather help an existing project on under developped aspects, such as adding social stuff or building options, than start "yet another" persistent world from scratch, however good that world can become.

I'm watching EfUA and thinking; it's a good world, likely the best one i've visited. And although there's lots of excellent aspects that can be complimented, it always comes down to one thing: DM involvment, not game engine. So, i'm rather wondering why you're not a DM here...

I'm also concerned about about something more trivial: player base. NWN is an old game, and although i'm only taking a wild guess, i assume players are more or less already settled on 1 or 2 servers they know. There's not going to be a lot of new players to NWN, so that means your world will either not attract players, or disperse players form existing servers. Both options appeal little to me, because as good as a server is, one main asset to a PW is to be able to regularly find players.

Bottom line is, although i entirely agree with your vision of rpg vs. computer rpg, maybe a less ambitious project, with limited players at regular hours, can perhaps best answer your wish.

Or, the good old paper and pencil rpg. This one truly has only two limitations: finding regular players, and your imagination.

[Cruzel]

Some people seem to have misread my post or misinterpreted my intentions, based on the forum and IRC PM's I have gotten.

This is Not a neverwinter nights server I want to build.

While what I want to create is inspired by the success/concept that NWN PW's have had, This will be 100% a completely different game, with it's own engine and client. Every system, rule, mechanic, map, whatever. It is all 100% in control of the dev team. Total flexibility is the goal of this project. The only limits to what will be possible with this game, is only limited by the talent of the team ( which will ideally consist of people from multiple gaming communities/a couple wizards I know IRL)

This is a project where anything can and will be possible.

[Letsplayforfun]

True, Cruz, but my stand still holds.

It's great for you to do this, but then i will add: that's a full time job, needing full company support, not a hobby.

Or you have unsaid objectives about the number or type of players you wish to attract.

Anyhow, i truly wish you good luck on such a project.

[Sandstorm]

The NwN Engine can be programmed to do anything you want. You merely need to make a hak pak for it. I have seen hak paks for floating cities, deep underwater campaigns, new music and spells, new races and models, new tilesets. If you are clever enough, you can make the NwN engine do whatever you want, without spending years on it.

[Allatum]

The NwN Engine can be programmed to do anything you want. You merely need to make a hak pak for it. I have seen hak paks for floating cities, deep underwater campaigns, new music and spells, new races and models, new tilesets. If you are clever enough, you can make the NwN engine do whatever you want, without spending years on it.

There are still hardcoded limitations for certain feats, spell effects, abilites, and skills. As well as adding weapons.

For example, the new streamlined skill systems that PAthfinder (and I believe 4th edition?) took could not be used in NWN due to hardcoding of the skills. Without a source code, there'd be no way to merge skills like hide and move silently to be a single 'stealth' skill.

I understand to a degree what Cruzel wants. I've had ideas about these things myself, but recognize some limitations of what could be done while keeping a game as simple as NWN.

[Sandstorm]

There are still hardcoded limitations for certain feats, spell effects, abilites, and skills. As well as adding weapons.

These can all be added in with a hak. Pathfinder may be trickier, but I'm sure you can mimic it with something else.

[Cruzel]

Allatum is right. Some things cannot be changed/added without the sources, which bioware has stated on the forums several times they will not release them.

NWN is a flawed game, filled with unfixable exploits, bugs, other random issues (tileset crashing, etc).  I am not saying this project will make a perfect game, but having the sources will allow us to look into/fix any bugs which may arise, and even change/add to the engine as time goes by to fit the needs of the players.

[tooh]

what is all about? a new rpg engine or a new rpg concept ?
Any skill of feat can be "free" with player tokens at NWN 1.69, has free code render from Enemy Territory, with classes, feats and skills.

[Badandexiled]

I see the great idea and I wish you luck, but if you are in dealings with programming, you should also see the few basic laws in making large systems.

In general, there is no perfect program, there are always flaws and bugs, and they just need to be fixed with time. Windows is a perfect example in my opinion, thinking that when XP came out it was flawed as hell in many parts, now it's the basic operating system with all the updates it has received.

With time, the programs come fragmented and broken as you fix bugs and find out they need more fixing and one fix creates two more bugs. Just as with windows, at some point they just throw updating on the side and create a new system, fixing their mistakes straight on the foundation. Not that this even works usually...

In short, games are always full of flaws, but they have been brought out in point where they are usually in relatively decent stable range. It also has taken alot, alot of time to get where they have got with their large working groups. I hope you have considered this, as with "amateur" group it is a great process, but by the time it'd be in the level you seem to wish now, it would already be outdated, and would have to be reworked again.

Reality is, people have thrown out programs and thinking "Just got to hope it has enough less bugs appearing than in the start, and that we can fix them before they come big enough problem"

[Kotenku]

Looool.

Effing naysayers, man.

[Cruzel]

but by the time it'd be in the level you seem to wish now, it would already be outdated, and would have to be reworked again.

Outdated is a ridiculous concept in gaming, tbh.  People still play FROGGER in arcades. It may not be top of the line, when it is in develpopment or when it is released. a game does not NEED super amazing graphics to be successful. while amazing graphics add to the flavour of the game, you can have good graphics and still have a completely shit game.  Tbh top of the line graphics were not even what I was aiming for. What I am aiming for is a game where it's systems are designed to complement RP, rather than people just roleplaying in a hack/slash environment.

As for the bug point you made, not to be condescending but I think anybody who has absolutely any level of skill in programming already knows you cannot have a perfect program, or fix all the bugs. Tbh, that is what beta/alpha testing are for, and programmers are the best people to recruit for it. Who better to try to break your system by finding the bugs, than people who actually understand how those systems work and their common vulnerabilities?

Yes, game production takes time. A lot of time. But it is totally worth it. (Iirc) more than one 'successful' game has been released which started as a project like this. (runescape?) afaik started out as a project like this. I am not really going for a 'runescape-esque' game, but as a basic example, it fits. Just a small team working on their free time can accomplish a LOT. It doesn't need to be the best game in the world, as long as it is fun and tailored to suit your target demographic. :)