EFUPW Forums

Post your thoughts about Chapter 5 of EFU, "EFU: City of Rings" in this thread.

I believe a fair, accurate, and candid thread about this subject will be useful to new players checking out the possibility of playing here.

Aside from bugs here and there it's been pretty fantastic. The setting is great. It's suitably gloomy, but not so doomful that you feel hopeless at all times. There seems to be a place for all sorts of characters from the extreme risk takers to folk who want to be more laid back.

Can't say I think random quests are perfect. I would sort of like for those that drop keys to inner rings to lack level limits so that it's more difficult to get stuck in the outer rings. It's still a bit too early days to properly judge things like that though.

I think it's great. I would probably say equipment is skewed vastly towards mages and bards over any other class! Chainmails/shirts/leathers seem quite rare for some reason. Also shields..

I am in love with v5 so far.  Sure there a few bugs that are being worked through, that is part of a massive new project like v5.

Some of the key good points for me are as follows.

- A setting this is supportive of a wide range of concepts. A lot of v4, Sanctuary was under direct threat of the Empire of the Dread and as such I had difficulty finding a good fit for my less survival / war minded concepts. v5 by what I have seen so far could support a very wide range of concepts.

- A setting that is a massive area to explore. It looks like it will take a long / long time to explore the majority of it. This is great as it gives your character a default 'quest' to pursue when other things are slow for them.

- A setting where the factions aren't over-powering. Sanctuary needed the Spellguard (IMO), but after a time the Spellguard always dominating a large part of Sanctuary started to get stale. The new factions seem to be relatively balanced power wise (based on the first week weeks) and the new Faction Application rules will be a very good thing but limiting the number of players in any given faction.

Though I am still getting my feet wet with the new setting like everyone else I am very much enjoying v5 so far. I wish there was more direction for new players as it seems like you are pretty much thrown in without any real sense of direction. That's not a bad thing per say but if you're a new player who isn't familiar with EFU I would feel lost after getting past the first puzzle.

I'm enjoying what I've seen so far, but I'm also getting the distinct feeling that this chapter will be even more heavily reliant on OOC cliques to find content than in the past.

Possibly just a worthless worry, but I can't manage to shake it.

Howdy. Glad to be back.

Setting, from the outside:
This world is... strange. If you want to follow canon to the letter and immerse yourself in stories about characters you know from books you've already read, this isn't a great place. But if you're not sure about EFU because its story arcs are so different, it does meet you in the middle - the Forgotten Realms is noticeably present, not absent. Drow are still evil, dwarves are still greedy, elves are still haughty, and humans are as scummy or heroic as they can be in our own world.

Setting, from a few days on the inside:
Holy smokes. This setting is incredibly deep, with each facet being well-rounded and interesting. DnD is a game that can be about a dungeoncrawling battle, a political game of intrigue, or a high magic open world fantasy. This new setting seems to check every box. The core setting, with three distinct areas, gives every PC a fitting-enough place to call home and offers them an opportunity to play into the politics, espionage, intrigue, and so forth. I think that's always been crucial to what sets Persistent World DnD/NWN apart from other online games. Yet, it's still an avoidable part of the setting if you're not fancy for that kind of gameplay - because abstracting a bit, you realize that the whole world designed by the DM team is one kickass dungeon. If you just wanted to grab a few friends and play the toughest dungeoncrawl you could find and not talk to a soul, this might be it. The challenge of conquering the rings is great. But that means the world isn't open, right? Not exactly - because the introduction of the "planar seams" means that you've now got an open-world exploration game to go see new and interesting places with occasional breaks back into the main gameplay zones. It's basically a giant "West Marches" style game, with sufficient divergent paths to keep your interest high for years.

Opportunities and Concerns:
With a playerbase so well-established, I think changing some cultural norms is going to be hard. We've already seen in week one major escalations from the baseline, narrative degree of conflict between the political opponents. It's easy for players to turn up the temperature rapidly, to be more akin to the days of EfU1 and EfU4 (and the others in part, I'm sure). I think this is a mistake, and could readily lead to one of the problems EfU faces in allowing fights to go from politics and rhetoric and devolve into characters killing one another. DMs have, from what I have seen, encouraged this in previous chapters. I think this one should be different, and I think the (as thus far understood) compulsion of each of the factions makes a cold war more appropriate and desirable - to say nothing of being new and interesting. If murder happens, let it be distinctly personal and horrible (and hopefully, infrequent and narratively profound).

Quests:
A core part of character development in adventure RP games is the questing system. It's tough, since you're balancing the basic competency of playing the game with the fast-paced demands of an action game (with no pause button!) but the ability to play a hardcore, rogue-lite game with this kind of seriousness-of-purpose in roleplaying is simply impossible in other games. So yes, quests matter. Not all RP happens in the tavern, nor should it. So with that in mind, the quest design thus far has been great fun. I cannot speak to specifics, because find-out-in-game, but some of the new quests have had me laughing out loud (the act, not the typed-emote). They're funny, challenging, and/or downright creative. And given the ever-shifting nature of the gameworld, with new alleys and planar pockets to explore each day, it's great to enjoy the variety of over a decade of quest-making and refinement. Please sir, may I have some more.

Loot:
For a low-magic world, the loot continues to be creative and fun. Can't say much more for now. Bravo, team.

Self-guided Gameplay:
I've put in 10-15 hours into the server so far, with very limited (but always positive) DM interaction. No DM guided/boosted quests, no DM missions. It's just been seeing the world they built and living my best life - and I haven't felt like I've missed out on anything at all. There's so much content here. Holy crap. Bra-freaking-vo. Mysteries to solve, new quests to find and beat, you name it. I can't wait.

I haven't been this excited since EfU2's wild first days. Seriously, I'd write more, but I want to log in and play again.

I am having fun. Progressing in-game is certainly a great challenge, but it feels surmountable, but not too surmountable. Balance thoughts aside, the setting is very great and a much-needed break from the doom and gloom of the old EFU's chapters. Nothing apocalyptic is going to happen if your character simply decides to settle down for a life on the City of Rings, and that, in my opinion, opens things up a lot more for the non-action oriented concepts.

The quests in efu5 so far are amazing and, in my opinion, far better than most quests in efu4.

So many of these quests feel unique and inventive. Even those that are a bit more straight forward tend to have great writing, interesting puzzles or fun twists.

I'd write more but it's difficult to without going into specifics. I just really love those that I've seen so far.

Endless room music is 10/10, would quest train again.

No nature/hermit start, no wilderness areas in ring 100, and to pass beyond into 99 you have to cooperate with other players (yuck).

It's almost like you don't want me back, H.

Lado you don't need other players to pass to ring 99 if you can figure it out. There also is quite a lot of nature areas if you can look!!!  Ring 100 is more of a starting area than anything.

(TBH I wish there was a hardcore prelude.)

Quote from: I love cats on February 07, 2019, 07:13:13 PM

(TBH I wish there was a hardcore prelude.)

It kind of feels like the whole server is the hardcore prelude.

The hardcore prelude was basically never necessary and ultimately not a great addition to Chapter 4, IMO. The current prelude (Ring 100) accomplishes everything it did, really. We're not so far into the server's lifespan that everyone's done it so many times they've discovered every little thing and need to skip a bunch of boring quests they've done a million times before, much like the starting fetch quests a few years into EFUR.

As far as the lack of nature/hermit start, I actually think this is a good thing. "Nature" was very segregated off from the rest of the playerbase in R, and that ultimately lead to a lot of undesirable behaviors. Better they're outright integrated in the same set of circumstances that everyone else is. You wake up in the river, where you go from there is up to you. Whether you make the left to Pauper Ponds straight out of the door and start taking up the mantle of "nature" is up to you, it's right there if you want it, and probably a good bit more hardcore than the Ticker or Peerage experience to boot.

Quote from: I love cats on February 07, 2019, 07:13:13 PM
Lado you don't need other players to pass to ring 99 if you can figure it out. There also is quite a lot of nature areas if you can look!!!  Ring 100 is more of a starting area than anything.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought we started in ring 101. I meant no wilderness in 99 and you have to cooperate to move into ring 98.

Quote from: Ladocicea on February 08, 2019, 02:27:04 AM

Quote from: I love cats on February 07, 2019, 07:13:13 PM
Lado you don't need other players to pass to ring 99 if you can figure it out. There also is quite a lot of nature areas if you can look!!!  Ring 100 is more of a starting area than anything.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought we started in ring 101. I meant no wilderness in 99 and you have to cooperate to move into ring 98.

You don't.

Someone left the gate open, that's how I got into ring 98. Probably should be someone keeping an eye on these gates.

My feedback of V5 is mostly positive.

The world is alive. Randomized quests, placables, NPCS. You can't really know what's in an area until you actually go. There may be a time when people know general spawn locations, and learn the general content of those quests/placables, but for now there's a ton of new stuff. It's wild, it's fun, and exciting.  EFU isolates but makes the relative niche interests of the playerbase all accessible.

PVP centric concepts can focus on the commons/Dispensary
Explorers have the rings/seams
PVE people have the quests,
And non-combat fellows have tons of options in terms of the guilds and the peerage houses for people who want to RP and politic hard.

This is all super great.

However, there's one really really big downside to all this.  EFU has always had a lot of secrets. It's part of the server's' charm. But in a lot of cases in my opinion, this secrecy can actually be pretty toxic and detrimental to the overall experience. There's a few points to break that down into:

First, there's the 'obscure, unknowable things':

Howland loves to tell us after a chapter ends, about quests/puzzles that no one ever found/figured out. There are always interesting, neat things. Yet these things have no indications IG or have no practical possiblility to learn IC most of the time, that they even existedin the first place  (The pie delivery having an alternate recipient in earlier chapters, for example?)  A PC picking up the pie would have no reason to delay delivery, and the alternate recipient AFAIK made no mention of wanting a pie in his dialogue or description?

There's been tons of similar examples stated in irc/discord, about totally obscure things that were really cool, but never discovered because there was no actual means of doing so IG.  This is something I hope we can avoid with v5? If you guys make cool stuff, it doesn't need to be easy to find, but it should be at least hinted at?



Then, there's the "bad luck" thing. I think  this ruins a LOT of potential interactions. I completely understand you don't want new players or even vets who haven't seen something to be deprived of the chance to figure stuff out. It's 100% logical you don't want  chatty tom to roll up into ticker square selling guidebooks to navigating the rings.

But the idea of discussing the rings/city in general causing super harsh bad luck? It's a wonderful way to try and deal with OOC spoiling on an IC level. But ultimately I feel like  It kills a lot of scholarly type concepts of people who'd want to gather that information, even if they're not sharing it to the public. It's a generally unclear guideline of "dont talk about the rings" that eventually leads back to the first point of things being obscure/unknowable.

I don't think it's healthy for the server in the long run, and I think it's self-defeating. The players likely to Oocly spoil things will still do so, and this system mostly relies on players to report spoiling when it happens. All this bad luck thing really accomplishes, is limit genuine PC collaboration and interaction. The bad luck could simply affect people who publicly share this knowledge, and it would ultimately achieve the same goal without being a detriment to the server or the high quality RP/interactions that it's known for.


Then there's the stuff that's secret for the sake of being secret, which makes no sense:
Prime example: Ascetic Bonuses.
You need to apply for this class, which will affect your build from day 1, and not knowing what kind of things the ascetic can do forces people to build extremely generic or just pass over the class because all they have to go on is people saying "it's bad" because they're not supposed to discuss it with people.   This kind of secret is just straight up HARMFULL to the overall experience.   In contrast: Bonuses of something like Bloodmage, which don't affect your character from day 1 and are stated to be somewhat random? Completely fine to be a mystery, IMO.


There are a lot of the above,  and I think if EFU5 can break away from the "secrets for the sake of it" and keep secrecy confined to things which actually have a reason to be a mystery, then the efu experience can be enriched further as more people can see/enjoy things like that.

Just a few comments -

1 - You definitely don't need to cooperate to get through the first selection of Rings; getting through Ring 95 and beyond likely does require developing a close group of allies to tackle some hard stuff. I don't think this is a bad thing. As noted elsewhere, later on Ring-running can be theoretically approached solo (negating the need to find new allies if you lose your group) and will - I hope - be a whole new experience for EFU.

2 - There are some as yet unfinished Ring 99 areas that are more suitable for loner-types, and plenty of ideas for more druid-specific content in the future, but please don't take this as evidence that I like you Ladocicea.... *

3 - I think Cruzel misunderstands me on several levels.

OOC'ly, I just ask that players keep us informed about what kind of content they spoil for other players so we can ensure there's an appropriate reaction.

If you want to play a scholar concept, that's great. And you can test the edges of the "bad luck" - it will be handled appropriately and in a nuanced manner by IG things.

I am also ALL FOR scholar groups that examine the Rings, that speculate IG and IC, that study and learn new things, that share their knowledge... and that, perhaps, cooperate to delve deeper into the Rings and IN SO DOING directly learn new things that they can share among themselves.  We have built a server that absolutely is intended to be EXTREMELY encouraging for such concepts; the prospect of scholars uniting to band together to learn and discuss.... is great!

I just ask that, for goodness sake, you understand that I (and others) did not build this world for the benefit of the first group of hardcore players that figure everything out. Please try to be respectful for new players who come behind you and maintain the challenge for them also.

QuoteHowland loves to tell us after a chapter ends, about quests/puzzles that no one ever found/figured out. There are always interesting, neat things. Yet these things have no indications IG or have no practical possiblility to learn IC most of the time, that they even existedin the first place  (The pie delivery having an alternate recipient in earlier chapters, for example?)  A PC picking up the pie would have no reason to delay delivery, and the alternate recipient AFAIK made no mention of wanting a pie in his dialogue or description?

And as for this part, you're just being silly and perhaps taking too much irc/discord banter to heart.

Practically everything in EFU gets learned and I think it is nice that we have a server filled with some selection of secret little things. If I build something, you can bet that I will try to make it something people can figure out - which almost always, always, always happens. What I don't want is for players to feel like that they have ever "figured the whole server out."

Please understand that in v5 we have brought EFU to the next level in terms of content that you can readily figure out, learn, explore, discover....it is truly another level of EFU. We just have far more than any other chapter in terms of this kind of stuff.

QuoteThen there's the stuff that's secret for the sake of being secret, which makes no sense:
Prime example: Ascetic Bonuses.
You need to apply for this class, which will affect your build from day 1, and not knowing what kind of things the ascetic can do forces people to build extremely generic or just pass over the class because all they have to go on is people saying "it's bad" because they're not supposed to discuss it with people.   This kind of secret is just straight up HARMFULL to the overall experience.   In contrast: Bonuses of something like Bloodmage, which don't affect your character from day 1 and are stated to be somewhat random? Completely fine to be a mystery, IMO.

Don't think Ascetic properties was a secret? -  maybe we didn't list it publicly but I always told ascetic players if they asked. It was such a minor thing though with so few actual ascetic PCs.

To be honest I think it is a little unfair to criticize us for being too close-lipped about mechanical info in v5 as we have this brand new wiki that properly presents all this information in a clear and complete manner. If there is information you think is missing on the wiki, contact one of our wiki goblins and we can ensure it gets put there.


* Just kidding Lado, come back to us.

I have to say, I love the setting to tears. It's mysterious. Creepy. Laden with conflict, intrigue and POLITICS! Sweet, juicy politics...

But, I do have some suggestions on a mechanical level after playing a bit.

The first is the lack of 'loner-friendly' zones. One of the things I liked about ch. 4 was how you could, feasibly, wild it. Or in my case, creeper it (necromancers 4 life!). This was extremely valuable in that it permitted a plethora of different concepts to not only be able to survive, but in some cases flourish. As it stands, the few areas available for new arrivals do not necessarily permit this. Ring 98 desperately needs some new zones for crooks, loners, madmen and fish-dog worshiping loonies to skulk. Adding a sense of 'there can be anything out there' beyond the Pond, Ward or Square, while also allowing (in extreme cases) the flourishment of new gangs, cults, etc.

My second suggestion ties into this a bit. The city is massive, but it's very likely the vast majority of activity is going to remain in the 99-95 for awhile. One missed opportunity I'm noticing here is the lack of explorable buildings. Not ones for encounters, or quests. But huge sprawling urban complexes that could range from anything to 'abandoned estates infested with rodents/undead' to 'rows-upon-rows of apartment-like structures that are almost always empty and there purely to add a sense of vastness/organic feel to the setting'. Honestly, I wish we had just these HUGE mega-urban interior maps that fit the flavor of being entrapped in  a primarily-urban environment. Yes, I know and have seen we have a few; random explorables as well as the recyclable quest areas. I'm talking about, again, areas that exist for the sole sake of existence. Just these immense squalor-like interiors that play onto the sense of 'haunted city' and 'something is definately wrong/something horrible has happened' while also giving players, perhaps, more places to hide/turfs to seize. I mean... -that- many buildings can't possibly be caved in/locked... can they? Definately something that could expand as the server develops; primarily in its hub-rings.

Summons can also use a revamp. Look, I love my summons. I love them more than life. I want them more than I want world peace in EFU. I need summons more than I need air. But some of the themes are seriously overdue for a revamp (particularly those that have no unit onclusion). I'm not saying to touch old-time favorites like the elementals, but perhaps look at some such as illusions/insects/shadows (also celestials. GIMMIE THOSE CHERUBS!) ? You have so many more assets available now that weren't possible in vanilla toolsets (I know, I've played with them a bit ;) ). Insects could become ants, beetles, centipedes, wasps, scorpions and more. Shadows could literally be any creature from the plane of shadow (like mastiffs! rawff). And illusions? Please, PLEASE put singing dolphins into the illusion summoning theme. Get even more crazy/ludicrous. It feels like it should be a MAD HOUSE now that we're out of the Dunwarren. I guess what I'm saying is... OPERA-BEAR-KNIGHT!!! This bit's more for balance than anything else.

The last suggestion I could make right now about the server is maybe add some wage systems. If players are going to commit to factions (all of which HAVE wealth), it doesn't make a lick of sense for them not to get paid. Let's be sure not to belittle the ever-so-epic perks of politicians/merchants though ;) Also dye barrels (sweet, juicy dye barrels).

P.S I love the Royald Herald. May he be the ONLY survivor. Keep forever :3

I welcome suggestions, however please direct them them to the suggestions forum.

Summons definitely need a revamp - opinions about which themes are OP/under-powered is welcome. I just haven't had time to really dig into them. But yes... there will be new themes... alley cats is a much requested one.

There will definitely be more content added to Ring 99.

The early game (levels 2-5), meaning the quests and areas, do a great job of explaining EfU's unique mechanics naturally through practice. There is consistency in messaging (orange names, descriptions, conversation content and layout), and intuitive level design (large, clearly-labeled regular transitions) throughout. Easily the best case of this in my memory. And that's just the hub.

Specifically, I'm talking about having your bearings enough to live out a day of adventuring, without yet knowing all the ins-and-outs of the land you're traveling in. 10/10

New players start learning not only in the first area but in the precise point they first spawn in. The advice to use the Tab key to highlight placeables is vital to navigation. The good news is that if you employ this technique, you'll find the module is designed around it. It's the least obtrusive it's ever been. All the tools work, all the optional settings work, everything but katanas is right where you'd want it. Excellent documentation on technical support, as well. 9/10 #nitenryuuichi

Briefly put: the setting is excellent and the designers deserve SO MUCH CREDIT (you guys are really pros). The world reflects a decade's worth of experience with NWN and EFU's brand of roleplay from the DM team.

Having said that, I have almost completely bounced off the new setting. These days, I usually have 60-90 minutes at a time to play, maybe 2-3 times a week. I know the highest priority of EFU has always been engaging roleplay, but it'd be nice to create some accessible, simple, fun content for the rest of us who only have the time to play minor-league adventurers.

A few factors/examples:
* expensive sendings - make it harder to catch a quest group from Discord or even while ingame and not in a hub
* "bad luck" means characters are afraid to take novice adventurers into deeper rings (even to 95)
* lack of mid-level quests in Ring 99
* randomized quest locations means you have to scout them before you can take them

That's my feedback, but I do recognize that EFU is a "hardcore" environment and that compromising the vision for "casuals" might not be an option...

Fair criticisms and I'm happy to hear suggestions for what things make easier for more casual players while still maintaining the general difficulty/atmosphere for others.

Just notes on the Peerage Ward. Pretty much everyone there is a retainer of one of the houses, I think it would be better to make retainer-ship more exclusive and also make it so you can't induct non humans without DM oversight and probably an application or something. Need more commoners.  I think it will bring the ward to life a lot more with variety.

I feel there should also be two levels to associations - basic entry level and then for PCs that have earnt prestige or done enough for the association to be "Promoted" as it were, by recognized for this (maybe an application). I don't know how all the associations work in this regard but from having played in one of the noble houses, I'm not sure spending favour to improve your station is the way to go, this feels like it should be more of an EIG through actions not through for example PvP at the dispensary.

I also appreciate that this requires DM input, but it would be cool to see more input on faction direction, as it comes across as PC's are just running the show at the moment in most cases with no consequences of their actions (whatever path they may choose) even if its in direct conflict with the factions ideals.

I think the rings/quest balance is really good, however I think that important quests that help one progress in the rings for example should have no level cap. I don't see this being too much of a problem early on but in a years time probably.

Although I am enjoying the idea of politics in the rings, it doesn't seem to have as much influence in this setting as far as I can see so far as you might like, it mostly seems to come down to might is right which I think would be a positive to steer away from. I think it would foster more interesting concepts if politics had a much bigger role to play.

Planar sickness is a cool concept, and I think it would be better to see more visual effects from it as well as the cool thematic messages, even in the earlier stages.

A "bannerman" position is definitely something the houses can use.

Peerage is by far the most successful ward as far as being interesting to interact with/within. Lots of colourful characters with reasons to hate each other. I do agree that letting non humans into houses should require dm oversight and maybe require an application. I also disagree that the players "running the show" is a bad thing. Given there hasn't been a single incident of someone going against their houses ideals without warnings from npc's and consequences.

I feel like the ticker needs to become more fiercely capitalistic. Somewhat similar to a duergar settlement with the poor being trod upon like the parasitic vermin they are etc. With the Pond being the place to be to be free of the tyranny of taxation and high prices.  The npc's seem to give off the same vibe as duergar with their miserly tones. I'd like to see the stonemasons encouraged to fiercely extort merchants who aren't "guild members" with the aim of keeping them poor and the membership small. 

The Pond being the place to go to escape from iron rule and the peerage ward, being less heavily taxed, but only allowing human merchants to prosper with the blessing of a household. Essentially it would be nice to discourage "peer/ticker" or "pond/ticker", but instead encourage folks to align with the peerage, ticker OR the pond.

I'm a big fan of the quests against a single boss enemy. I liked it when you had the Ziggu-Rat, I liked the giant ice elemental, I liked the potion golem, I liked the giant named deep lizard ghost, I liked the underwater shark fight club. Those quests are some of the most entertaining.

None of them compare to that Fighter-only quest from early EfU:A. It was in the north-east corner of the map, just before the transition to the temple ward. You'd go in, player limit 1, and have a fight with somebody. Obviously, nobody's gonna clear your body, so you had to win, die, or run away and quit.

-

I think the answer to mid-level content is to have single player quests that are class specific. Fighter duels, Bard performances, Monk meditation spots, etc. These could be designed unique to the class in terms of how many steps they take, and what rewards are available. These quests should not be a substitute for the multiplayer experience; they should give the character something to work on while they're logged in, or take place near other quest areas. The idea should be for, say, a Wizard to stop by Alice's Bookstore before they go on a quest with players, because they've been given a list of 3 random scrolls to find and deliver. The Rogue quest could be an obstacle course similar to Bilby's, but with a different aesthetic. For some, the idea would be risk/reward, while others are simply about concentrated effort. Just like the classes themselves.

This helps casual players by adding another quest they can do at mid-level regardless of who else is on.

Quote from: Anonymous Lemur on February 20, 2019, 11:15:00 AM
I feel like the ticker needs to become more fiercely capitalistic. Somewhat similar to a duergar settlement with the poor being trod upon like the parasitic vermin they are etc. With the Pond being the place to be to be free of the tyranny of taxation and high prices.  The npc's seem to give off the same vibe as duergar with their miserly tones. I'd like to see the stonemasons encouraged to fiercely extort merchants who aren't "guild members" with the aim of keeping them poor and the membership small. 

I agree with this guy here. I feel like Ticker Square isn't really 'represented' very well by the players - it feels like this generally 'good' organization of merchants and ringrunners. I'm sure part of this was intended but having more depth in the square I feel is something that needs to be addressed.  Added below I feel Butchers/Stone Masons could add internal conflict in the square.

So, I asked some DM on what the story is with the 20,000GP Merchant Guild Entry Fee you pay for the property-owning ability (- several DMs and it has been a rather vague answers on it. I know of atleast one other person that has accomplished this - I feel Ticker Square could do with some more internal politics and intrigue. I would propose that the DM/Devs work out some kind of additional system to this - it's a damn feat to get this amount of gold to join and just the ability to own a piece of property seems shallow - becoming an elector for guildmaster positions would be interesting - elections is what I'm saying we add to Ticker Square. - Only for merchant guild members only though + guildmasters. Besides ~the ability~ to own property on the square, what else is there to this 20k gp deposit? More depth would be awesome. Also, strongly agreed with the Peerage point earlier - needs to be some better form of hierarchy and rank to achieve

. The Butchers versus the Stonemasons would be a cool avenue to explore for within the square. Perhaps both get promoted for security of the square and are at internal odds? (Not direct pvp battles, I feel like the server already has enough of that, shared jursidictions, same goals, far different methods of handling.) Merchants in the square and players have to pick sides and play politics thusly within, and promote this somehow in the players with plots, rewards and DM events.

Upvoting the above. Ticker Square is in need of some sort of friction; it is boring at the moment.

Actually, I'd like just one iteration of the server where CONFLICT isn't shoe-horned in. What's wrong with 99 being a hub? What's wrong with capitalism being benign? I think repeating the same conflict-for-conflict-sake attitude of previous modules would be boring. And I think the odds are good, based on external messaging from the DM team, that all the tools necessary to create conflict naturally are further in.

The King awaits.

Because conflict is the essence of narrative. The resolution of opposing forces, metaphysical or physical, is what makes stories interesting.

Quote from: Hound on February 23, 2019, 09:07:59 PM
Because conflict is the essence of narrative. The resolution of opposing forces, metaphysical or physical, is what makes stories interesting.

This 115%. And anyone with half a brain would know hes not refering just to PvP.  If the goal of the server is just to ringrun..?

If all there was to do on the server was ring run it would get very boring within a month. This server really has something for everyone and that's why it's so enjoyable. You can make entire concepts that never touch the rings, or you can make concepts that do exclusively that.

Quote from: Hollow_Mage on February 23, 2019, 08:49:26 PM
Actually, I'd like just one iteration of the server where CONFLICT isn't shoe-horned in. What's wrong with 99 being a hub? What's wrong with capitalism being benign? I think repeating the same conflict-for-conflict-sake attitude of previous modules would be boring.

"Conflict-for-conflict-sake" is not somehow more boring than a goodly hub of merchants with peaceful guards who all help each-other out. As it is, Ticker Square lacks the real tools or reasons for anyone to have any sort of attitude toward anything other than to say "Cash is King" and honestly people don't even do that. I've my issues with the Peerage Ward too, but I will say that as someone who has exclusively played in Ticker Square, the latest dramas are absolutely almost entirely ignorable. I'm not saying that "what Ticker Square needs is the Reformed Order of the Spellguard" but having everyone sitting in a circle, holding hands and singing Kumbaya is dreadful.

Sanctuary at least had different groups (be they Red and Black, Society/Spellguard or Exile/Spellguard) who had competing dogmas and visions for the City that gave people reasons to bicker, squabble, and yes even PVP. There was a reason to play the "Game of Thrones" and to try to eek out influence over one-another. Ticker Square currently lacks any reason to do this at all, which creates a fairly stale environment that quickly grows old.

Quote from: Moonlighter on February 23, 2019, 10:14:33 PM

Quote from: Hollow_Mage on February 23, 2019, 08:49:26 PM
Actually, I'd like just one iteration of the server where CONFLICT isn't shoe-horned in. What's wrong with 99 being a hub? What's wrong with capitalism being benign? I think repeating the same conflict-for-conflict-sake attitude of previous modules would be boring.

"Conflict-for-conflict-sake" is not somehow more boring than a goodly hub of merchants with peaceful guards who all help each-other out. As it is, Ticker Square lacks the real tools or reasons for anyone to have any sort of attitude toward anything other than to say "Cash is King" and honestly people don't even do that. I've my issues with the Peerage Ward too, but I will say that as someone who has exclusively played in Ticker Square, the latest dramas are absolutely almost entirely ignorable. I'm not saying that "what Ticker Square needs is the Reformed Order of the Spellguard" but having everyone sitting in a circle, holding hands and singing Kumbaya is dreadful.

Sanctuary at least had different groups (be they Red and Black, Society/Spellguard or Exile/Spellguard) who had competing dogmas and visions for the City that gave people reasons to bicker, squabble, and yes even PVP. There was a reason to play the "Game of Thrones" and to try to eek out influence over one-another. Ticker Square currently lacks any reason to do this at all, which creates a fairly stale environment that quickly grows old.

Spot on.  ;D

Quote from: Moonlighter on February 23, 2019, 10:14:33 PM

Quote from: Hollow_Mage on February 23, 2019, 08:49:26 PM
Actually, I'd like just one iteration of the server where CONFLICT isn't shoe-horned in. What's wrong with 99 being a hub? What's wrong with capitalism being benign? I think repeating the same conflict-for-conflict-sake attitude of previous modules would be boring.

"Conflict-for-conflict-sake" is not somehow more boring than a goodly hub of merchants with peaceful guards who all help each-other out. As it is, Ticker Square lacks the real tools or reasons for anyone to have any sort of attitude toward anything other than to say "Cash is King" and honestly people don't even do that. I've my issues with the Peerage Ward too, but I will say that as someone who has exclusively played in Ticker Square, the latest dramas are absolutely almost entirely ignorable. I'm not saying that "what Ticker Square needs is the Reformed Order of the Spellguard" but having everyone sitting in a circle, holding hands and singing Kumbaya is dreadful.

Sanctuary at least had different groups (be they Red and Black, Society/Spellguard or Exile/Spellguard) who had competing dogmas and visions for the City that gave people reasons to bicker, squabble, and yes even PVP. There was a reason to play the "Game of Thrones" and to try to eek out influence over one-another. Ticker Square currently lacks any reason to do this at all, which creates a fairly stale environment that quickly grows old.

Big shock, but people have different opinions on what is or is not boring. Here's mine: Bickering and squabbling is boring. It's a little childish, and I often feel embarrassed to be in a digital space with grown adults whose ideal of narrative conflict is bickering and squabbling.

What I'm saying, and please god don't quote me if you're not going to read it, is that if you WANT conflict, go get it. It's not on the forums, unless you're strawmanning me. It's in the rings. The messaging is clear; nobody outside the DM team has any idea the potential of the server to host your wildest concepts AS IS.

Just once, let's have a hub of likeable people. Huh? Just once?

Edit: And maybe keep the dogma IG?

This was rude and probably not constructive. Rather than delete it and hide, I'll just say it's fine to enjoy EfU any way you want. Sorry.

I am sorry that you find it embarrassing to engage in roleplaying discourse with other EFU members, but it does not change the fact that the server has a very strong and well-ingrained tradition of player-oriented dispute as the main drive of drama and interest, rather than a player-to-DM focused relationship as might be found on PotM or the like which is characterised by long periods of downtime and brief flurries of activity and interest. This is the way EFU works, and it is quite time-tested to be successful and enjoyable as an approach to storytelling in a dynamic way.

I think whether someone is inherently 'good' or 'evil', you always have methods of rising up. Whether you become beloved or you play the game and rise up through cutthroat politics, there are so many ways to do it. I think it's very unfair of you, hollow, to say that people are being immature by wanting narrative conflict and calling their idea of it stupid or inappropriate. Conflict /is/ the basis of a good story. It's in every story. There is always a conflict. But I think the setting of ticker square is fine as it is. It's a status quo which could be easily transformed by player initiative into whatever dogma they wish. Just have to take risks and not be afraid to lose your PC, and focus on creating a solid narrative and environment for everyone that is enjoyable and interesting. What I've noticed so far is that a lot of people really don't actually care about doing that in this chapter- it seems to me that there are a few who have taken unique initiative to create interesting plotlines (Hervis Cross and Royland Blacks are two I can name that have really stuck out to me) but for the most part, people seem more interested so far in just being adventurers and becoming more powerful, which is fair. I think it's an awkward time for the setting. Long-term PCs are building up their power bases and making small moves. Groups and factions and ideologies are being established. Enemies and friends are being made. The social structure of the server is still being molded by player action. My word of advice to those who want more conflict is to create it themselves and let it naturally form. I think it's very intentional that ticker square is kind of a neutral hub right now. I mean, from an IC perspective, we don't really know how long this entire little society has been operating. We know that there are the old masters. We know that the nobles of the Peerage once ruled over the entire ring of 99. There is shadowed history that holds tension just in itself. And as players, we are not native to the city. We are still falling into place and learning about its history. I have no doubt that over time, there will be more conflict and separating ideologies/factions that create interesting stories and tension. For those trying to initiate stuff like that, bravo to you and keep it up!

It's pretty dishonest to read between the lines to find the worst possible interpretation and then argue to that. I've lost a bit of respect for some people in this thread.

I'm out.

This isn't what happened, I over-reacted. Sorry to the folks in this thread; that was immature.

  The Peerage has their daunting lords who abide by restrictive traditions and are strictly anti-demihuman.  The Pond is a sink hole of thieves, monsters, wild mages, and the fae touched.  The square is led by a guild of highly cooperative, inclusive merchants who seem to treat their members fairly well all things considered and have no greater aspiration than to make a profit.  One of these things is not like the others and doesn't really fit well into the traditional EFU mold.   Now if the Square were meant to be a nexus of sort for the other hubs and contending factions to interact on neutral territory,  that might be a neat thing.  But I don't think that is its intention. 

Couple observations:

V4, which is the only OTHER iteration of EFU I've seen, had a main hub (two main hubs, upper and lower?) and then an "outside". This outside being, of course, the untamed wilds of the deep dark. From what I understand this was also the case in A and M.

Efu5 however has no such thing. You have three wards, and the "outside" is technically just the rings, which are very small and gated spaces that require intensive collaboration to be breached. The closest thing to an "outside" so far is ring 94, and unless there's really vast, multiple-areas regions deeper in, this means that there's almost literally no "away" from ring 99. Everyone is roosting in there, for good or ill, and that alone promotes a certain amount of truces and cohesion.

V4 had an atmosphere of impending doom and scarcity of resources, as well as the absolute NEED for a big bad tyranny keeping things in check (spellguard). In v5, separation, divide and impera, creeping paranoia and exclusiveness seem rampant, with the "King" working hard to prevent large groups from forming. If you slap together all these details, conflict is bound to shift more and more along the lines of non-deadly competition.

It seems to me that the current IG priority is "escaping" from the King's Maze. If the team wanted, and I assume this will be the case at a certain point, player characters will be pitted against each other by the King himself, or will murder each other over something a bit more palatable than the Dispensary.

Big conflict tends to crop up when two parties are vying over something that cannot be split, over ownership of land and power (which is so far clearly and steadily in the hands of the King) or in general when there is something, anything to fight FOR. Monsters are likewise a little hard to handle, when there's around 20 areas for them to hide in. Less, if you consider they likely can't go questing and getting what they need to advance in the rings.

Currently, the server is structured under an all powerful, all knowing NPC Tyrant-God. It also has a very big, very clear PVE challenge. I kind of expect PVP and conflict will bloom once more and more people will have reached deeper rings/shops and resources that aren't exclusive to ring 99. Because the general (IG!) agreement seems to be that war in 99 is bad business for ringrunning, and in general pointless, since there's nothing to gain (king rules anyway) from conflict, except draining precious resources, potions, gold.

I honestly think this is intended. It'd take very, very little to make ring 99 hell, considering the King can literally issue a mandatory manhunt between, say, Tickers and Peerage. Or we could see a faction of "terrorists" defying the king's rule and opposed to its enforcers. Or districts could fight over a McGuffin that's really, really worth draining those 40 csw and making a bunch of enemies for...

EFU is well known for raining curveballs over its playerbase, and given previous eventfulness I VERY MUCH doubt V5 will just be about fighting over the dispensary, questing, and unlocking deeper rings. I also think all the options and tools for conflict haven't been laid down yet, and that we'll see more incentives in the long run.

I'd go as far as to say that conflict in v5 can make more sense than it did in v4. V4 had the somewhat unifying threat of the impending apocalypse constantly hovering over the head of every PC, and thus squabbling over petty things felt a little out of place sometimes. V5 is already designed to "split people up" in small-ish groups (up to 8?) even within larger organizations such as the noble houses. Give these small groups an incentive to murder each other (and V5 already hinted it could turn into a massive Battle Royale at a drop of the hat) rather than many reasons to collaborate, and you WILL see conflict.

Edit:

If you think people are holding hands, consider all of this and more happened in... the last three weeks, top?

- Several murder-tournaments.
- Naomi, brutal dispensary fights, reanimated and headless corpses being thrown from rooftops, characters turned into pincushions. If anything, that conflict could have been milked for longer! More house feuds!
- BANDITS. During the first week or so, walking through Commons was almost a death sentence.
- Crownless vs Peers plus multiple kidnappings, beatings, people being robbed, street-duels and more.
- Ten-Tonne's turf war.
- Bethany and Mazeed vs everyone.
- Hatcher, butchers, death of Skrol.

Quote from: TwoOClock on February 24, 2019, 01:03:52 PM
If you think people are holding hands, consider all of this and more happened in... the last three weeks, top?

- Several murder-tournaments.
- Naomi, brutal dispensary fights, reanimated and headless corpses being thrown from rooftops, characters turned into pincushions. If anything, that conflict could have been milked for longer! More house feuds!
- BANDITS. During the first week or so, walking through Commons was almost a death sentence.
- Crownless vs Peers plus multiple kidnappings, beatings, people being robbed, street-duels and more.
- Ten-Tonne's turf war.
- Bethany and Mazeed vs everyone.
- Hatcher, butchers, death of Skrol.

All of these are external sources of conflict, and most of them scarcely apply to Ticker PCs at all, and it more or less proves my point. Ticker being a peaceful, largely good and nice hub that simply "reacts" to bad things happening around them isn't good for the health of the server nor really all that entertaining from a player's point of view.

Not one of them pits any Ticker Square PC vs another. The closest thing I've seen to someone using Ticker Square as a platform to create conflict with other players is refusing to serve half-orcs at their merchant stall and others who do predatory gold lending.

From afar, Ticker Square feels like Sanctuary without the Spellguard or internal conflict, which is to say, boring, reactionary, and "friendlyman." I have yet to see any Ticker PCs really squabble with one another and they seem to largely stay in their own zone unless someone inspires them to other action through PvP, kidnapping, etc. Ticker appears to be a place for generic merchant PCs to thrive without conflict because the guilds largely get along despite supposedly being brutally capitalistic. I'd love to see more squabbling between guildmasters; territorial disputes, rampant poverty, disgust for the poor, etc. Peerage Ward has houses conflicting with each other, PCs striving for glory within their house, and fighting off the wants of the other areas while pursuing individual house goals. Pondsmen foster strongholds, deal with life labeled as bandits and societal rejects, and wrestle with the fact that everyone wants to take their freedom. I don't really understand what an individual Ticker PC can strive for to create drama without doing their own thing, a la the Crownless.

Ring 99 is the hub. It is Sanctuary/Dunwarren, it is Mistlocke/Forest, it is the Ziggurat/environs. Insisting that conflict should take place outside of Ring 99 and within the rings feels either ill informed or disingenuous.  I have been very happy with Ring 99 and have a lot of fun playing with #housesunsloths, but I can fully understand why people might feel like Ring 99 doesn't suit their thirst for drama and conflict from a different perspective.

For those of you who have been struggling, I will say that I think the DM team has been very helpful and open to dialogue since the transition. If you have a cool group or have an inclusive PC and you want to create drama or conflict, I would recommend reaching out to someone you have a rapport with and at least discussing your ideas.

---

About ringrunning- I have very much enjoyed ringrunning as a side endeavor to pursue with allies. Progressing through the rings feels like a challenging drain on resources that does just enough to knock you on your ass before letting you get back up and become victorious. I have had many great late nights getting further in the rings with my allies.

That said, from my (limited?) perspective of the system, ringrunning still feels very linear, jilted, poorly paced, and discouraging of interaction.

The rings and seams most closely resemble the Mistlocke / Forgotten Forest dynamic of traveling the mists. Only unlike the desert and the mists, the rings and the seams never actually meet, which makes the server feel very linear and makes it difficult to bump into other people while running. The rings don't feel like an extension of Ring 99, but a separate adventure from it, which makes the server feel claustrophobic and means that players who set out to ringrun are doing their own thing for hours on end without the possibility for interaction with others. This might be a contributing factor to the boredom that some players feel because they have to get in on the ground floor of a ringrunning group to experience the further rings; not doing so cuts the content they can interact with by a significant margin.

Some of the best moments of drama in EFU occur when two groups meet each other far from home. Stargazers clashing with a Ziggurat patrol. The Fury bumping into the Numinous Order at Marcail. Spellguard and Covenant standing off in the tramways.  These things don't happen when Ring 99 and the rest of the server are so mutually exclusive.

Ringrunning cannot be a full time endeavor or concept with a group of friends because the challenges demand you return to Ring 99 to recuperate without metagame knowledge of the tasks at hand. Further, some of the challenges are extremely time restrictive and do not allow for players/groups with limited play times to progress reasonably. I do not think these things are necessarily bad on their own -- I want to return to Ring 99 because that is where the roleplaying happens. But (a. changing spawn points) and (b. non-keystone barriers to entry) make this very difficult to do. I understand these things are meant to make people commit to ringrunning, but this is oftentimes impossible, impractical, and not fun to do in practice.

I don't want to post specific spoilers, but I'm more than happy to explain in more detail in PMs.

Quote from: Hollow_Mage on February 23, 2019, 08:49:26 PM
Actually, I'd like just one iteration of the server where CONFLICT isn't shoe-horned in. What's wrong with 99 being a hub? What's wrong with capitalism being benign? I think repeating the same conflict-for-conflict-sake attitude of previous modules would be boring. And I think the odds are good, based on external messaging from the DM team, that all the tools necessary to create conflict naturally are further in.

The King awaits.

I wanted to express my support for this statement.
There's nothing more boring to me than obviously shoe-horned conflict. Example:

Faction 1 is delicious potao-men and Faction 2 is hungry starving fry cooks.
Faction 1 is druids and Faction 2 is "I HATE DRUIDS" engineers.

I don't think this sort of forced conflict adds anything interesting to the setting or the game as a whole.
Furthermore I think it's quite appropriate to have a somewhat more mellow setting in which people don't instantly click on each other while hostile because they happen to be from the Peerage/Pond/Ticker square. You can still have that experience, and people have been having it, if that's what you want. But in the current, more long-term PC oriented setting I would prefer to avoid a "fast and furious" PC lifecycle where people brutally murder each other because they happen to sleep in the wrong inn.

There has been no lack of conflict this chapter but I find it fun and interesting.  Change can be exciting.  I can't agree with the post above enough.  Pretty pretty pretty please with cherries on top do not change it back to a situation where groups are forced to be mortal enemies ready to stab each other by default.  Right now the Peers/Ponds/Tickers already have plenty of reason to dislike each other and fight, I'd very much like to not see it moved to a state of permanent warfare as was often the case for Lower/Upper/Vaults.  Not always of course, but there were long periods of open warfare and things were rarely more than two steps away.

Quote from: Providence on February 24, 2019, 09:59:16 PM

Quote from: Hollow_Mage on February 23, 2019, 08:49:26 PM
Actually, I'd like just one iteration of the server where CONFLICT isn't shoe-horned in. What's wrong with 99 being a hub? What's wrong with capitalism being benign? I think repeating the same conflict-for-conflict-sake attitude of previous modules would be boring. And I think the odds are good, based on external messaging from the DM team, that all the tools necessary to create conflict naturally are further in.

The King awaits.

I wanted to express my support for this statement.
There's nothing more boring to me than obviously shoe-horned conflict. Example:

Faction 1 is delicious potao-men and Faction 2 is hungry starving fry cooks.
Faction 1 is druids and Faction 2 is "I HATE DRUIDS" engineers.

I don't think this sort of forced conflict adds anything interesting to the setting or the game as a whole.
Furthermore I think it's quite appropriate to have a somewhat more mellow setting in which people don't instantly click on each other while hostile because they happen to be from the Peerage/Pond/Ticker square. You can still have that experience, and people have been having it, if that's what you want. But in the current, more long-term PC oriented setting I would prefer to avoid a "fast and furious" PC lifecycle where people brutally murder each other because they happen to sleep in the wrong inn.

You literally just made a giant strawman and oversimplified everyones arguments, good job at attacking that strawman buck-o, snideness aside I can see what you're saying (but that's not what people are saying) but at the bottom and heart of any worthwhile story and roleplay is a basic rule and principle. - Conflict derives roleplay. Irregardless of the setting, where we are, or what the story is. This is a broadbrush principle that has driven story and roleplay since the dawn of mankind. 

But we are having an argument here that is off topic to this thread now.

I will state my point I made first.

There is no problem with creating internal conflict within the square, divided factions derive intrigue, roleplay, and interest, as of right now there - I feel it is very little. Yousef making remarks towards half orcs, really only source of conflict I've seen, and god bless 'em for doing it. It's like light beer and tavern roleplay at the minute internally.

imo:

Exile / Covenant / WaW conflict was often stale because the conflict was often seemed to be about their competing existences (grr thralls grr rebels grr cops) and dragged out forever as opposed to competing agendas / storylines with goals that have tangible in game consequences / changes set within a reasonable timeframe.

Right now, the server doesn't feel as fleshed out as it should be, which is understandable as both players and DMs are trying to find a foothold in the new setting. With the closed status of applications and relatively untouchable NPCs of consequence, important aspects of the server are just inaccessible by players and player influence doesn't seem very valuable in a story telling sense yet, as the player conflict that I have observed often seems like a game of king of the hill and, while at times it is fun and interesting, does not hold much significance outside of itself.

What I would like to see is a game world that is encouraging and rewarding of conflict that make use of the setting and adds stakes for winning and losing to each side that focuses on building up a larger arc. For a vague example, the Rings are a great obstacle to overcome and success in ringrunning is an easily accessible and tangible  metric to incorporate into the success in the completion of competing faction agendas and goals. Incentive for diverse groups to find themselves in the same place for the same goal but with different reasons is a natural conflict.

Obviously you don't want to dump 100 useless unique objects into the loot tables with tags saying they're useful and valuable though stuff like that on a smaller scale I can look back on favorably.

The aspect of conflict, which, admittedly, is not something I'm super interested in, I think is having some issues for two main reasons.

1) Ticker Square is kind of a hub.

There's just too much of an economy in the square to be ignored by the other factions, combined with the fact that most PCs don't care if the Peerage come to shop.  Plus there are a lot of profitable low level quests.  But I think the more relevant one, in my opinion, is thus:

2) We're all too close to each other

It's cramped! It's hard to mark or claim territories because of how close the other factions are. It's like playing Team Fortress 2 and trying to get into the second floor of 2fort, the enemy team spawn is RIGHT THERE!

There is some good feedback here but good deal less good. I think I would love if everyone could not turn this into a discussion thread though. Give your feedback and move on. I do not want to see this thread become a dumping ground for angst and aimless salt. So say what you like, what you don't, maybe you have something you wish there was more or less of. That's all we really want. Please do not go around in endless circles arguing and debating each other here, we can already get that in discord! :)

Thanks.

In that case, here's some more:

I think the difficulty of Ringrunning is too high. This may sound odd since I like challenges, but... I want this to be something everyone can enjoy. The recent change to how the 95 key works, and the challenges ahead are all extremely mechanically demanding to the point that they will easily wipe all the supplies one has accrued. So after defeating a ring, you often end up having to regather supplies for a long time which I do not find interesting.

I get it - it's not meant to be easy or quick. But maybe the difficulty could not be as front-loaded as it is right now. As it stands right now, 95 demands a fairly powerful and well equipped group of PCs, and it doesn't get easier further in. If you frontload all the difficulty so early on, there's a lot less room to ramp things up in the later rings.

Quote from: Pandip on February 24, 2019, 08:18:51 PMmeans that players who set out to ringrun are doing their own thing for hours on end without the possibility for interaction with others.

that some players feel because they have to get in on the ground floor of a ringrunning group to experience the further rings; not doing so cuts the content they can interact with by a significant margin.

I think this could and should be worked on somehow. If ringrunning were somehow less about creating cliques but still preserving it's central idea. I like vibrant RP that involves a great array of characters - and to that you could say: well, don't focus on ringrunning. And for the most part, I'm not. It just doesn't feel like something that should be kept strictly in the realm of cliques unless there were ways of extending RP opportunities and encounters beyond Ring 99.

Maybe get Ordo Arcanum that tower in the Wizard Warrens where dedicated Ringrunners can stay awhile and listen... hire a mage, try their hand at alchemy, train against illusions, or have a bit of conjured food and drink before hitting the rings again (sorry, shameless, I know. But the idea is sound! RP opportunities beyond the 99th through thematic player-run, possibly even ringrunner clique-run mini-hubs!)

I imagine as the chapters goes on we'll see more and more people in rings deeper than 99;  I've really enjoyed the rings less than 99 how they are: difficult, dangerous, and somewhat isolated from civilization.  I like the fact that after facing a challenge you have to limp back to 99 to resupply.   It would be a real shame if the rings were easy enough that we were able to make it to the King's Keep within half a year.  Running into folks in deeper rings has been quite a pleasure because it's been so rare.

The dangerous and remote areas of EFU have never been interaction-heavy, exactly because they're remote and dangerous.  The Lowerdark in EFU:4 for example, wasn't a place you went to with high expectations of running into somebody and getting some interpersonal-RP going, although you would of course interact with your party.

I'd propose instead more ring 99 content (which I hear is coming) and more seam content to give folks more stuff to do together in the more accessible areas.

Keep ring-running difficult and dangerous.  Make us suffer, please.

Positives:
I love the setting (to many positives to name almost)
I like that your have to stay on your toes at all times with the random spawns.
Crafting system is 10/10, very addicting once you figure it out.

Negatives:
I feel the cut off  from quests and loot is to harsh once you reach 6.  This was especially glaring for me as a new joiner as i had suddenly nothing to do without a party.
If this could be made more gradual that would be nice, now its just a steep cliff down. I feel the best tactic now is to hoard gold and resources as much as possible before reaching 6.
I dislike quests you need to do to progress the rings are level capped.
Search is far to profitable/important, I made a new character with some search and he was rolling in gold and items.

Quote from: Astegard on February 28, 2019, 11:12:17 AM
Positives:
I love the setting (to many positives to name almost)
I like that your have to stay on your toes at all times with the random spawns.
Crafting system is 10/10, very addicting once you figure it out.

Negatives:
I feel the cut off  from quests and loot is to harsh once you reach 6.  This was especially glaring for me as a new joiner as i had suddenly nothing to do without a party.
If this could be made more gradual that would be nice, now its just a steep cliff down. I feel the best tactic now is to hoard gold and resources as much as possible before reaching 6.
I dislike quests you need to do to progress the rings are level capped.
Search is far to profitable/important, I made a new character with some search and he was rolling in gold and items.

Yeah once you teach level 6+ the majority of quests are not solo. This is something I hope DMS don't change. Search is a very important skill its also why when goong on adventurers it'd always good to bring at least one person with a lot of ranks in search.

A good way to get supplies is by spending your gold on PC crafters and PC merchants. DMs like a player driven economy. People often think that the pay out for quest loot is too little. Sometimes the loot on quests is abysmal other times you will find generouse portions of loot.

As for being cut off from quests. Socially interact IG and make friends/allies. Join an association, find groups of like minded PCS with similar goals wether it is to make as much gold as possible or slaughter cute puppies. Or even make a sending that you want to go on an adventure!

Back from my hiatus now that GMAT is over.

Couple of things. Maybe it is very well hidden but a rogue shop would be great with traps etc.

There seems to be a severe lack of invisibility items, which is fine for anyone with armour and a shield but painful for all other classes. Could I suggest dropping a few more invis items?

Something for further down the line but I'd agree with Lado, multiple ways to cross rings would be pretty interesting/great too!

Hi

I adore the setting. The writing and world building is beautiful. I can't wait to learn more and to see how it develops over time.

I love that the Peerage Ward is developing into its own and maturing beyond random combat pvp with strangers. Daily meetings, political and personal deals, favour trading and dealing with matters using prestige and influence instead of gold and treasure is so so good and in line with the setting. I came to EFU because I heard it can have deep, meaningful and explosive RP and I've not been disappointed.

The mechanical difficulty is in the right spot from where I can see it. Even though Eryeth can't take part in the majority of the content, with how she's designed I'd be disappointed if she could!

It feels like things in the Peerage are about to be turned upside down - that something big and important can happen. It's so rare to pull that off on a player world, in a setting so young.

Awesome job! I can't wait to see what happens next.

Some my feedback about Ponds.

After about three weeks playing on two druids in Ponds I came to my personal conclusion what Ponds as Hub and as area made very poorly and discourages to play characters with nature theme or monsters characters. I should to mention what I am personally do like to play my monsters and druids. I knew what I was signed for and I am all fine with it.

Firstly what I think is very important what there is no any faction and NPC support in Ponds.
As Pond character you can't feel yourself as home and as well you do not have even any reasons to sit in Ponds. Only thing what force you remain in Ponds it is what in other two hubs character probably not welcomed and not allowed but this not works same in both ways. And there is nothing stops characters from Peerage or Ticker Square visit Ponds. There is no NPCs or Faction what will stop them or will try rise conflict. From topic here https://www.efupw.com/forums/index.php?topic=690942.0 it is clearly stated about two other hubs but as I mentioned there no any kind of force what will prevent other characters to visit Ponds.

Absent of faction or any kind of NPC group support leads to constant issue with two strongholds which located in Ponds. There no special rules, nobody controls it and if you want to associate with one of strongholds you need seek rare Ponds character or claim/raid it with DMs.

Not major but it playes it's role too. As druidic hub it is very hardcore. There no druidic sites/groves with support like it was in EFUR, no lairs but only Stronghold(with their constant issue what I mentioned above) and only Mongrelwoods to explore/wandering which is always means death for new players. Adding Mongrelwoods I think was good step  but still whole druidic theme looks very very poor.

This all togther and other minor things hugely discourages to play characters in Ponds and makes whole area not active at all. Currently, I think there is like less than ten characters active in Ponds(not counting goblins/kobolds). I see players suffers from boredom because they can't visit any hubs, they can't properly gather party to travel/explore in rings because this chapter all about group ringrunning, factions, group exploring/questing, secrets and plots. But without player numbers behind and lack of any kind of NPC/faction supports there is literally no way to try do something important. Only do crazy characters-driven things if you somehow managed get group players who can actively playe in same timezone.



What exactly should keep players interested to play in Ponds when there is nothing?

Thematically, Ponds looks great, anarchy and chaos but is there anything else?
Currently Ponds is like Lower Sanctuary from EFUR. Maybe even worse. Without any changes it will remain very empty without any characters and very unpopular hub as it is now.

This isn't meant to argue or claim anyone else wrong, not in the slightest, this is just my own two cents and my own experiences.

I've played a character in the pond/woods, who survived for a fairly decent while, with the self-imposed restriction of never dawdling in the Peer or Ticker without explicit reason to do so- IE being invited.
While I did have moments of regretting that decision, I was never actually tempted to break it, or change my mind.
Yes, the Ponds are "empty" of NPC guards and Factions. Personally I think that's a good thing. Some of my fondest memories of playing Anna was just huddling about the fire with another PC, and start talking, and watch as more and more PCs came and joined us. We'd usually end up some 4-5 PCs chatting away. I fucking loved that. It's amazing.

There's obviously a lot of potential issues with the setup, and down-periods are gonna be hellish, but on the other hand, I fully appreciate the Sandboxy feel of the "hub".
Only changes I'd ask for would be quality of life stuff, some of which have, to my understanding, already been put in.

As a side note- While the Mongrelwoods can be extremely punishing, but they can be just as rewarding. Saying there's no sort of "benefits" or "support system" for druids or other wildling PCs isn't true at all. Especially not for druids who'd need, what, level 5 and wildshape to have a high enough stealth to reliably get around the woods without too much trouble?

I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed playing a Ponder, with how it is now. And I look forward to doing so again.

As for a personal note on your comments, Derkot- You're already trying to do what would need be done to try and change some of it. Organize the Ponders. Push the "invaders" out. Make it unsafe for them. It won't be easy, but it's not about winning, it's about the journey!

Hi I just wanted to leave a positive note.

The mystery and extensive but not difficult to grasp Lore of this setting is amazing and makes you wish to explore the Rings, but also engage with factions, NPCs and books. It's great how something like this is made by a team of enthusiastic hobbyists (not to discredit).

Good job.

I wanted to dust off this old thread to re-hash some issues I'm still trying to reconcile.

Compared to the slog of EFUR, EFUV has been such a breath of fresh air. Getting away from the ever-looming menace of God-Tier Netherese NPCs and their machinations on the lore and such has been so great to break from. The amount of work, effort, energy, time, and focus put in by the DM staff into creating this new world and fresh lore is so very impressive. Considering it's all been done pro bono and as a passion project never fails to amaze.

To show this isn't just some knee-jerk reaction to recent events or otherwise, I wanted to cycle back around to the Pre-EFUV end of EFUR V4 Jan 19 Feedback Thread (https://www.efupw.com/forums/index.php?topic=690931.0).

Back before we knew the server was going to be changing to an entirely new setting I had two concerns.

QuoteThe last push of EFUR has been a great capstone but two thing I'd like to mention:

- Rentable Properties either tied to associations or factions was crippling.

- Please reduce/alter Associations going forward.

I've always been "The PC Faction Guy", it's the one thing you can get in EFU I feel you can't get anywhere else. There's plenty of dungeon games, or OOC Coordinated MMO raid games, or similar but in EFU has always had this feeling that you could potentially just roll up your sleeves and make something yourself.

A) Strongholds though are still too Niche and Association tied.

- Ticker requires 20k gold which is a huge investment and yet at the same time the Merchant Guild has no RP presence or expectations, which is like non-investment. PC Merchant Guild PCs have nothing to do politically and some have even actively said they don't want to get involved in politics. Which is just... a joke?

- Courthouse is too PVP heavy over investigative which I think is a mistake. It has such cool potential for investigation/policing changelings and otherwise but it just turns into instant cheap dirty messy PvP conflict

- Sunpurse Manor is tied to the entire sunpurse association.

- The Ponds Groundskeeper is beholden to Nature-Only PCs


B) The quality of Associations in EFUV compared to EFUR is light years advanced. There's so much lore and connection and efforts into the world building around Associations it can't be denied. Now more than ever they feel like they've got character and flavor.

The problem though is these associations have replaced DM factions but exist in a vacuum. Individual DM plots/actions Ruul destroyed A RING and DMs have him lulzing around, Velstra lost the King's Banner and it just means 'Oh no, out of wine', Nephezar slaughtered Krown's Daughter but that PC died and the Butcher faction empty, and most DMs don't want to touch Ticker Square so Solomon Krown doesn't matter now.

Because these  "Negatives" are tied to One-Off DM events rather than a larger plot there are never any negative repercussions for anything that happen to Associations in terms of plot or etc.

For current PCs in the association sure, you can lose support or your PC can be ended but the Association will just chug on towards its nebulous goal with an Immortal and Omnipowerful Lord and faceless army of NPCs with a few hero NPCs. And now Associations give so much to PCs to join up that there's no incentive to not hitch your wagon to these pursuits. It cultivates this culture of "Shooting for the Middle".

With no long term reprocussions from PC actions to associations it creates a zero sum game. So if you are playing an Association PC who fits what a current DM plot wants you're on top of the world.  Succeed and you get NPC support, resources and supplies, reputation and incentives, and similar.  At worst you fail and you get a reputation as a shit kicker and PCs and DMs see you as someone stirring conflict and you can maybe get some incentives in that regard.

This leads to a cycle of PCs just leaping through fire to accomplish NPC goals for DMs without lasting repercussion. Association's don't lose face, lose standing, lose prominence, lose anything. They just churn on all powerful.

The Stonebuilders lost the Defense Contract and they had... a slow spell? Fewer PCs joining for a while? That's a laughable outcome. But now PCs are rallying and trying a new direction.

And that just obliterates the desire to make a PC faction because nothing PCs can do ICly or OOCly will ever make PCs want to give PCs that kind of support, or if it is there's monumental negative repercussions. No one ever wants to "Kill Lord Grigori Orza because his Retainer beat me up", because PCs know these factions are invulnerable DM plot machines. But if Lord-Custodian Visimar's partially paid henchman who does something? You better pay up or you're a dead man.

People like to throw around "It's not about winning on EFU" but it's been proven time and again PCs will never support the losing side.

And against DM plots and Associations any PC faction will always lose, which seriously undercuts motivation to even try.

Quote from: Random_White_Guy on December 22, 2019, 05:30:59 PMRuul destroyed A RING and DMs have him lulzing around

Truth.

Quote from: Random_White_Guy on December 22, 2019, 05:30:59 PMBecause these  "Negatives" are tied to One-Off DM events rather than a larger plot there are never any negative repercussions for anything that happen to Associations in terms of plot or etc.

Perhaps though this can still be fixed, especially in regards to the above example.

Quote from: Random_White_Guy on December 22, 2019, 05:30:59 PMFor current PCs in the association sure, you can lose support or your PC can be ended but the Association will just chug on towards its nebulous goal with an Immortal and Omnipowerful Lord and faceless army of NPCs with a few hero NPCs. And now Associations give so much to PCs to join up that there's no incentive to not hitch your wagon to these pursuits. It cultivates this culture of "Shooting for the Middle".

Some effort to ensure continuity was made when the named NPC guardians were brought in to defend the Peerage Ward gate, as they started having association-specific conversations with PCs which varied by the PC's House affiliation, with references made to historical grievances involving PCs earlier in the chapter; but this is still a great critique. I think in general RWG's feedback has merit in terms of highlighting possible improvements that could be made to make the server feel more dynamic and alive.

I was going to make some gentle suggestions but since it's been six-ish months since I originally posted in this feedback thread I'm going to just start typing.

I think we ought to get rid of the Builders/Butchers, make Ticker Square guard-free faction wise. If you want protection in Ticker Square, you should pay for it by paying PCs, and buy you a band of Bloodbeards. Ticker Square should be mercenary crew city--the strongholds support several different flavors of group so the mechanics support it, the Guildmembers all have varying agendas so the RP will support it, and as is, the Builders/Butchers barely do anything of note in their current roles as protectors and rabble rousers (the plots attached to them don't require them to be an Association or even tied to the Square).

I don't think any of the Ticker Strongholds are niche, exactly, but with the associations that do exist at the moment, there's less incentive to go for them. Given the choice between gathering a crew and building your spot up from the ground and free resting/armor/perks/protection, I can't blame people for going the Association route. This has also cultivated a certain degree of dependence upon NPC's (and DM's) because rather than come up with your own goals as a PC group, players become content/encouraged to just fulfill the wishes of their chosen association, like ticking off boxes.

Butchers fight Orza, Stonebuilders fight Butchers. Peerage Houses chase the Banner.  The PCs who go against the grain of their faction and do something radically different- don't affect the status quo. Guildmember Knaves, Guildmember Monsters, Peerage Knaves and oathbreakers to their Houses-- none of this makes a impact on their respective groups, because it can't, because these associations/groups can't be destroyed by one PC. They have to last. And if they're going to last no matter what PC's do, then nothing matters. The associations become different shades to slap on a build and throw at the enemy of the day (so long as we unite to face the Orcan threat later). And it just makes sense to join whichever group has the highest population (and consequently, support) because I want to play with people rather than wander around solo for 30 mins trying to find a group.

So concepts are softened as a result. You see less people making concepts that pick a side and take a stand on an issue, because being in the minority is hard and doing things ICly that are difficult to sustain OOCly is harder. And if that stand is against any kind of DM-backed faction, doubly so--which is why Ib'javi faced so little opposition and now the attitude has shifted to one of ambivalence at best. It is easier- and often more rewarding- to follow the NPC who tells you what to do. I've been guilty of this as well, and in hindsight, it was a mistake because it meant sacrificing what my PC would've done ICly for the sake of cheap conflict and a perhaps a pat on the head in the form of loot/exp/rank. I suspect I'm not alone in this.

Maybe this comes down to PCN's, and it's just harder, as a DM, to find that little guy trying to make something for himself outside of an association. I haven't bothered with them for a while personally, and I can't speak on how many do, and if they push things other than what their group would want. I just think of all the big swings people took in previous chapters; efforts sustained by PC groups over time. Building dwarven halls and razing them. Birthing and slaying dragons. Freeing ancient evils and chaining them up again. I don't think we've seen it yet this chapter, or if we have, I wouldn't be able to tell from the rumors thread, which has yet to feature a mention of a PC group to date. Plenty of PC individuals, though.

Ticker square could certainly use a change of pace. I would definitely agree the Stonebuilders have less presence there post-contract-loss. The ones living in ticker square are really just a guild for laborers and stonemasons. They definitely should not 'go away' as a faction though. The Stonebuilders are rich with story and lore well beyond what is commonly known about them. And the presence of the faction is actually based out of an entirely different ring all-together. The Ticker square builders are a small sub-faction who basically retired from the great quest to live quiet lives in an old abandoned Stonebuilder outpost.

I personally would like to see (and work toward) an evolution of the stonebuilders away from ticker square specifically. I think of them like the doorkeepers. Like custodians that can be found all along the city, searching for secrets, trying to repair damaged sections and helping people who need it all over the rings. This faction has a lot of story to be explored and frankly none of it is really in Ticker square any more aside from the npc laborers living and working there.

Do you have a system in mind that would be a good replacement for ticker square?

I think there needs to be an increase in ward vs ward vs ward.

The best way in my opinion is if something were to happen in the Commons that causes the three wards to be against each other more.
Right now there's a whole "You go live in your Ward. I'll live in my Ward. May we never see each other" going on.

The dispensary is just "sport" and no conflict spawns from that.
Perhaps it should be player initiative to attempt to "rule over the Commons" or perhaps faction NPC's should hint that way or something entirely new.

no please no more hub/faction tribalism

conflict should be synthesised from the clash of ideologies of respective pcs that players actually find interesting to pursue, not cheap conflict for the peanut gallery in discord to observe

if people want to play neutral hub friendly men/women, that's their prerogative

Agreed with the above.

There is, and will be, conflict between areas. It's not there all the time, but it develops organically when certain individuals get involved. Then their friends get involved and there you have it.

Having the Dispensary be more 'sporty' than a proper kill or be killed fight is actually a good thing. It used to be a very lethal thing to do, up to a point where only a handful of people dared attend and the whole thing lost its purpose. And even so, the more sporty image it has now was mainly achieved due to IC actions of characters punishing others who used it as a cheap way to murder someone downed during a bout. It can still happen, has happened already, but OOC enforcing it will just make it the playing ground of a strong group of buddy PCs, rendering it useless.

Also, with all the cataclysmic events happening recently, it's no wonder most (not all, mind you) PCs tend to suffer each other better, because there are bigger, common threats to face. And again, this is caused by IC things happening, not because players just agreed not to be at each others' throats.

With regards to the hubs. I've found it odd that the only (obvious, that I know of)  door to Ring 97 is in the Ponds.  If the idea is that PC hubs are meant to attract a certain sort of PC, then putting a major highway through one hub makes it into a "travel zone" rather than a "hub". Whereas Ticker's only got one high-traffic in and out route, and the Peerage Ward has the bridge and gates before you enter the Ward itself, so there's a clear internal boundary if you're passing through. You can always see what's happening in the Ponds. I think it reduces the sense it's "Someone Else's Area and We Don't Belong Here" when there's regular, apparently unavoidable travel through it. I reckon the three-hub structure would benefit from an obvious second gate into Ring 97. Or a longer distance and clearer boundary between the path through Ring 97, and the Ponds themselves. So you literally need to go off the beaten path to find it, and can't see things from the road.

In general though, WOW this is a step up. I left just near the end of EFU:A and the super-dark feel of EFU:Revelations didn't appeal to me. But I always loved playing Rangers or Rogues and just wandering the server in search of interesting places and lore. And recruiting teams to come tackle the randoms I found. It was so much more satisfying than a clockwork quest train. So this chapter is so far massively my jam. Simple changes like the gold sacks and supply crates mean there's an incentive to take big parties and more people get to see the cool stuff. The world feels just a bit less dangerous in the local areas, enough that I don't feel like running around without maxed stealth and/or invis is painting a giant target on my PC's back. For example, the Nightrisers meant that half the time on EFU:A, even the Hub was a bit risky. And a siege mentality encourages routine and optimisation rather than flair.  The randomised quest locations mean that exploring and variety are the order of the day. It's fun! It encourages you to push more, take more risks, and not powerbuild to survive.

AND THEN THERE'S THE RUNE PILLARS. I love the rune pillars, they're the best thing for questing. Powerful enough you often can get away without a caster or pick yourself up after a monster with dispel. Unpredictable enough you can't depend on them. Surprisingly useful at the end of a quest to buff you for the trek back. Again, an incentive to take some calculated risks, let the wizards pack numerous fireballs, and generally have some fun. And on the subject of fireballs, the various spell and GSF overhauls make me keen to play a kaboom caster. I've played a few, and I like to think I did well on them. But they never seemed that impressive in earlier chapters due to a preponderance of mind-immune foes, Spell Resistance, long quests, etc. Now I'm itching to have a GSF Acid sorcerer spamming cantrips and lowering AC, or a Wizardly evoker making everything burst into flames and keep burning.

The one negative bit of feedback I have about all this wonder and variety is that it's frustrating to carry round bag after bag of herbalist reagents in the hope you'll run into a lab at a convenient time.  Especially for dangerous/interesting alchemy and herbalism, you need the convenient alignment of "A full bag, a convenient lab, and someone to buff you up and watch your back". I think the server would benefit from the lab spaces having more than one type of workbench, increasing the chances both for players to find their fun, and for different sorts of crafter to meet and cooperate or conflict.

I think the people speaking against faction tribalism don't see what I see. Alot of PCs are just out there doing their own thing. Even when their own thing is awesome it doesnt mean others will support it.

I dont think it needs to be one or the other. Both should work fine. I'd personally like a better implemented Butcher vs Orza. The Peerage houses also have really vague goals I dont really see get picked up. They should have clearer primary goals that players can fill in with creative subgoals.

Groups are where the fun and character development is. Individuals are where the unique concepts are but atm I feel like a decent amount of people are way too divided and not interacting.

Not everyone is  a great creative and they should have a noob faction to jump in rather than afk a barstool and only quest.

QuoteIn general though, WOW this is a step up.

Love to hear this kind of feedback, keep it up.

QuoteWith regards to the hubs. I've found it odd that the only (obvious, that I know of)  door to Ring 97 is in the Ponds.  If the idea is that PC hubs are meant to attract a certain sort of PC, then putting a major highway through one hub makes it into a "travel zone" rather than a "hub".

The Ponds was originally not a travel-through area, but the decision was to make it such. Think of it like the outskirts, a camp of disreputables squatting in an old park through which other people travel. 

When the Ponds was just another area connected to the Commons it felt a bit sad and empty.

I think the current design is s working pretty well - there are other places to spawn if you want to stay out of sight.

After a few weeks back IG after a six year break. I'd like to start off giving a serious pat on the back to all involved. The mechanics changes, use of HAKs and more have really allowed the server to flourish.

Having played in all five settings for this story, EFU:COR is rapidly becoming my favourite.

The abilty and expansion towards player focused factions seems extremely obvious, which I am a HUGE  fan of. Allowing more and more player created factions/ associations to thrive without DM oversight needed is something that the server does really well.

The cannon changes to allow players to craft their own religious Deity, by far a huge addition to the server. FR gods whilst many have their merits, are limited. This change once again allows much more diverse and complex concepts based around religion.

It's very good to be back. Especially during this time of isolation for many, EFU:COR seems to be more active than ever.

Kudos, to players and DM's alike.

I'm only a few days in myself, and while my break was not nearly as long as my old friend EQ there, I have to fully agree with him! I'm already intrigued by the things I thought that I would not like with the setting and truly wish that I had hopped in far earlier!

Ring running  looks interesting to say the least (even if not full on gunning for ring 1)
The religious aspects are fantastic
The FEEL of the primary areas (peerage, ticker, ponds) is really nice. The multiple transitions from ticker / peerage into the King's Commons is awesome and has a really cool nostalgic feel for me from EFUA :D

My only concern has been finding other characters, but that will come as I get more familiar with where folks hang out (since it's usually not taverns :P )

Overall, really cool so far!