Paladins, evil and Detect Evil

[The Old Hack]

I've for a while thought about paladins and their relations to/opposition towards evil characters. One of the things that have troubled me is the reactions following their discovery of an evil character due to the 'Detect Evil' ability. From what I have seen, it is extremely common for paladins to instantly and dramatically proclaim the 'evil nature' of the person they have spotted and then subsequently refuse to have anything to do with that person. Now, I am not saying that this is a 'wrong' reaction -- it's just that it bothers me if it is supposed to be the only possible reaction for a paladin.

I think I should clarify my thoughts a little. While I've met many paladin characters over time, I tend to divide them into subcategories. One category is the 'crusader' paladin whose instant and knee-jerk reaction to evil is to out sword and hack away. Another is the 'defender' paladin who tends toward the more patient and planning and allows the enemy to reveal its intentions. A third and fairly rare type is the 'diplomat' paladin who likes to move in political circles and use the law itself as her weapon in the battle against evil. Fourth and rarest is the 'redeemer' paladin who, while certainly not afraid to out sword and do bloody work, will nonetheless first seek to understand the nature of the evil he confronts in an attempt to see if it cannot be swayed towards a peaceful solution and perhaps even turned away from evil.

As I see it, the instant rejection of evil characters might work fine and be in character for the first type but becomes rather more problematic for categories two, three and four. To be honest, I don't like the idea that a paladin character of mine should have to be that blunt and unsubtle. What concerns me here is whether it is considered RP acceptable behavior here on EfU: A for a paladin to bide her/his time and observe a detected 'evil' character for a while before deciding what to do about it, which includes grouping with the character on occasion, listening to her/his ideas and motivations and so forth. (I am not saying join their guilds or that sort of thing, only that the rules for the paladin says that the paladin cannot abide direct evil acts from her companions, not that she has to instantly and automatically reject anyone who pings evil on the detect evil ability.)

In short, what is acceptable behavior for the paladin here? Is the automatic rejection mandatory, do you feel, or are shades of subtlety permissible for paladins? And in the latter case, what is permissible and when is it 'too much'?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts,
~Hack

[Howlando]

You can certainly interact with evil characters, but you should not be questing with them.

Quests for paladins are serious business. And being put in a situation in which you might divide up rewards/treasure earned with evil members of your group is a moral hazard for them.

[Paha]

You can be just as you want. People have different personalities, but paladins carry that certain code. One matter is sure, if you work with evil, you will slowly lose your powers as paladin - there is no going around that, no matter what, what ever the reason.
Naturally we can't count being on the same battlefield against orcs and evil guys happen to be on your side.

If you google paladins with keywords 'Forgotten realm paladin', it gives quite good opinions and variety on ideals - but certain rules and codes still apply. Some yell out the evil, but maybe more common paladins would not. Evil, tainted or not, some may agree it does not excuse the paladin to go out of his manners or honour even then.

[Drakill Tannan]

From what I have seen, it is extremely common for paladins to instantly and dramatically proclaim the 'evil nature' of the person they have spotted and then subsequently refuse to have anything to do with that person.

Personally, i hate such paladins. Limits storytelling a huge lot.

Secondly because D&D morality just doesn't get along with rational thinking, "evil" is an inhate energy on the person, and a paladin can see the person is "evil" just by seeing this energy, but a person that hasn't done anything "evil" shouldn't be confornted and instantly killed by a paladin even if it is seen as "evil" with the detect evil ability.

What if the person is trying to be good? What if the person is under the influence of some evil force or just being dragged down the path of evil by truly evil people with lots of persuation? What if the person must do evil acts in order to survive? This are all questions a good paladin should ask himself before behading a random person who had the evil aura on them.

Personally, i think the only reason why a paladin should directly confront an evil PC is because he has proof or at least enough convincing evidence that PC hoas done something evil. "Detect evil" should make a paladin suspicious of the persn (And because of that, he wouldn't quest with them, help them in major schemes or things he doesn't know the purpose for, or belive what they say without proof) and have him keep an eye out for actual proof the person is evil. Then, depending on the personality of the paladin, he takes action.

On a side note, when speaking about the taint or the fact that "detect evil" shows the PC is evil, screaming "OMG HEZ EVIL!!!!!11111" should not be the reaction. And no "OMG HEZ TAINED!!!!111" shoudln't be the reaction either. When an evil PC is leading the party, why not come up with somehting more resonable like "I don't trust this man, and i don't think any of you should."  Name his crimes, or what the paladin thinks he has done, but give a reason for actually naming him evil.

[Thomas_Not_very_wise]

Think of evil as the greeks did. Zeus held two pots, one filled with good, the other evil.

An evil person would have more 'evil' liquid inside of him.

A good person would have more 'good'.

A neutral would have about equal portions.

A person who is evil, but trying to become good, would slowly gain good or loose some of his evil until the good clearly overpowers the evil.

Until this happened, he is still evil

Perhaps its a bad analogy, but its the closest I can think of to what FR represents as evil.

[9lives]

An Evil person is someone who would or, or has done, many Evil acts.

[cmenden]

Someone asked about this in IRC recently, and I told them that in my own opinion, I think a paladin would definitely want to spread knowledge of a person's "evilitude". But a lot of it does depend on dogma and character personality, the redeemer is one of my favorite paladin's to encounter, (maybe because I'm often a villain <_<) but I think that any 'quest' scripted or otherwise where loot distribution will occur, a paladin cannot allow an evil hearted person to work with them on. The money/items are going to a bad place in all likelihood, whether that wand of sleep the shifty guy in the hood took is going to be used to knock out a poor dwarf who got lost in the alleyways, or the money he obtained is going to be used to fund the next big attack on the establishment. The paladin can't and won't contribute to the prosperity of "evil".

[Howlando]

Name his crimes, or what the paladin thinks he has done, but give a reason for actually naming him evil.

The reason is that the paladin is the servant of a powerful celestial force that reveals to him when evil acts have stained the soul of an individual.

Evil in our setting is not like "evil" in the real world. It is not subjective, it is an objective and measurable force.

Paladins are bestowed with an extraordinary gift to detect this evil, and although they are often bound to a code of general courtesy they are also truthful.

[Decimate_The_Weak]

I think the conflict between a paladin & villain should be story building. I personally don't like when a paladin goes; "You're evil. Get out of my sight.", likely, a palading would understand it probably goes far deeper than that.
 
Often times, evil acts are commited out of desperation, survival, etc. Like mentioned above, these things would likely be taken into account before any actions are taken - unless your paladin has incredibly low wisdom.
 
As for the story building, I'd like to see the relationship between a villain and paladin involve others, possibly, or just be interesting to begin with, and interesting to watch.

[The Old Hack]

I thank all who have answered so far for your input. It has sparked a couple additional thoughts and questions.

For example, past burden of sin. I envisioned my character Ulfrin as a mainly Neutral personality who nonetheless had one very bad action on her conscience that she was trying to learn from and rise above. Would it have been better or at any rate acceptable roleplaying in this case to have started her as Neutral Evil but aiming at trying to be Neutral instead? Mentioning this in the private OOC character forum, of course.

Next: Accepting that questing with evil characters is either out or at least carries problematic consequences for one's paladinhood, I am still not certain that the paladin would proclaim why they rejected the person in question -- or at any rate, I feel that they might choose to spread their warning in a more diplomatic or subtle manner. Here I support those who feel that the paladin need not recoil in open horror and scream denunciations. Of course it is also plain that the paladin should warn others, but it need not be done at once and in a loud display of histrionics.

Third: What about other Lawful Good or at least strongly Good characters? Granted that they have no divine standing to endanger, do they risk alignment shifts for grouping with evil characters? Or perhaps I should say knowingly so -- I do not quite see that such shifts would be fair if the evil was an unknown quantity.

Once again, thank you for your input and thanks in advance for further thoughts.

~Hack.

[ScottyB]

Here I support those who feel that the paladin need not recoil in open horror and scream denunciations. Of course it is also plain that the paladin should warn others, but it need not be done at once and in a loud display of histrionics.

Some PCs are evil enough that the paladin will be dazed, stunned, or even knocked down, when they're detected.

Something to keep in mind; evil isn't just something that paladins can see, it's something that they have to make a saving throw against! :p

[The Old Hack]

Some PCs are evil enough that the paladin will be dazed, stunned, or even knocked down, when they're detected.

Well maybe, but surely DM-level evil can't be all that common among PCs. :cool:

[Drakill Tannan]

I think the conflict between a paladin & villain should be story building. I personally don't like when a paladin goes; "You're evil. Get out of my sight.", likely, a palading would understand it probably goes far deeper than that.
 
Often times, evil acts are commited out of desperation, survival, etc. Like mentioned above, these things would likely be taken into account before any actions are taken - unless your paladin has incredibly low wisdom.

That's what i was trying to say, thanks.

[Nightshadow]

Evil is serious shit. Don't take it lightly, if a paladin says someone is evil it is in my honest opinion that at least some other non-evil characters should be like "Oh shit, evil person? Bad guy? What, is he a thief? Murderer? Psychopath?" Evil isn't some obscure thing in this world, evil is a very real force, it goes out and raids defenseless villages for loot, it steals, it kills, it destroys, and accusing someone of being such is a serious accusation that people should listen to, whether or not they believe it.

Paladins typically use detect evil to make sure they don't quest with evil, and I don't mean to insult anyone by this, but the RP that comes from harpy group #58712 isn't probably as high in quality as the evil person feeling insulted, trying to counter the paladin's accusations, likely insulting the paladin a few times back, saying that he's good to have around, etc.

A paladin is opposed to evil, if you're evil, you're an enemy. They'll be courteous to a point, but don't expect them to tolerate you in the slightest.

[tspawn35]

I find that being a Paladin is hard trying to figure out what to say. I made the mistake for calling someone out for being evil when the group was forming and what i got was a "you are insane and need to go to the mental ward." From that experience i find the best approach is to instead of calling out said person I will instead just state that I sense something is a miss with the group and walk away. If it's for a quest group that is and i didn't form it. I try not to form groups for I do not know how to turn people away. The other thing is just because someone is evil does not mean you call them out on it you haven't seem them do anything. (Unless it's for a group that is.) so until they do something I just pretend that I did not know they were evil but I do not lie I just say nothing about it.. I have worked with evil and paid for it.. it made for good character development and my character learned from her mistake. Anther good place to look is:

http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/index.php?pageid=guide

for gods: http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38

Character:

Ivana Keralexis Paladin of Tyr