Critical Hit Multipliers

[Grix]

Hello all. So I've a suggestion I'd like to run by you regarding the damage on critical hits with relation to weapons and combat. Specifically with relation to two handed weapons. In real life, I train with Greatswords, Longswords, Spears, Halberds and Axes. I have a dojo that I train at every Sunday for 4-5 hours with these weapons.

In NWN, the Sword is treated as the weakest critical hit weapon. Always x2 even in the case of a Greatsword. I feel this is perhaps in need of change. When we are talking about damage that can be performed on a battlefield or in a duel with real weapons, Greatswords are a bigger threat of bodily harm than Hammers, Axes and Spears. The only weapon to compete is a Polearm axe.

Greatswords are the most threatening because they have the most range out of all weapons where the damage can be done. A sword can take your limb, no matter if you are at full extended arms, or up close with arms pressed to chest. No matter which part of the blade you get hit by -you are losing a limb. A greatsword has a blade that is nearly five feet long and every square inch of that blade can take a limb, or your head. It's compared weapons are only deadly at their tips or at the weapon's 'head.'

Compared to an axe, they are only deadly very close. A hammer, only deadly very close. A spear only deadly at it's tip from range, the same with a polearm. With a greatsword you have 5 feet of death. With an axe you get maybe 1 foot of axe head. With a spear you get maybe 6 inches of tip. With a polearm, you get the same as an axe, slightly more reach. There is only one weapon designed to KILL with every square inch of its construction - The Greatsword. Even the hilt/cross guard and pommel can kill.

Neverwinter nights has the critical hit damage entirely reversed.

A longsword and a bastard sword do not have the cutting power to get through fullplate armor. No one handed weapon does. For these weapons most armored kills actually happen by ramming the cross-guard of the sword, into the eye-opening of the enemies helmet and gouging them after up-close grappling. For this reason I agree they should be x2 crit like most other 1 handed weapons. I would suggest 1 handed axes and hammers are actually the same when it comes to lethal damage.

I am of the opinion however that no two-handed weapon. Especially a greatsword should be left at x2 crit when spears and the such receive a x3. Especially considering in actual combat the Greatsword is the single most deadly, most scary and single easiest weapon to make heads roll from shoulders with minimal effort, from a safe distance of up to six feet from an enemy. Of all the weapons in a real setting, the greatsword is the only one that can kill from point blank and at full extending of the arms. And its the only one with leverage and swinging speed enough to consistently break through armor without having to search for a weak point like between the elbows or the arm-pits.

In conclusion.

The Two-Handed Greatsword deserves to be x3 crit. It just strikes me as odd that one of the absolute -most- damaging and -most- versatile battle weapons is given some of the weakest damage in NWN. I'd say however what it really comes down to is leverage. Using leverage to deliver damage. The greatsword is the most dangerous at this at all ranges of swing. It's comparisons are far too limited and rely on the stars aligning just right for any kind of damaging strike and they each have very restricted reach and threat.

Lets give the greatsword the love it deserves, shall we? Ultimately it changes very little as people already expect x3 crit from 2h weapons anyway. Why leave the most threatening and powerful of them as x2? It just does not make sense to my why NWN did this.

Lmao then again, NWN thinks longswords are a 1 handed weapon. And it thinks bastard swords are bigger than longswords xD. IRL Longswords are just skinny Greatswords. Bastard swords are just fat short swords with a longer hilt such as Arming Swords or Broad Swords.

And Claymore doesn't mean Greatsword. It is just scottish for 'Sword' and most Claymores are actually SHORT SWORDS! What!?

Sorry I digress. x3 crit for greatswords please, because logic.
Nwn has weapons backward as heck lol.

A second suggestion would be instead of x3 crit, because its so EASY to critical hit IRL with a greatsword, perhaps it should be made on par with the falchion? A reduced critical hit threat, starting at 18-20 instead of 19. This would make sense. Any strike from a greatsword IRL that hits you -is- a critical hit. With other weapons they need perfect alignment of stars to hit you in the face for a big crit. So with this logic it would make sense that perhaps the axe and such would have to roll perfect 20 for big crit. But things like falchions and greatswords are more likely to crit with reduced range.

Either way, I do feel something needs changed. The greatsword does not get the love it deserves in nwn. It gets treated like crap and it deserves better! lmao

[Thricefold]

You totaly disregard critical threat ranges, which in my opinion are a far more acurate way to represent lethality.
Besides that, if we equal damage to cutting power, try chopping wood with a "greatsword".

And yeah dont bring up realism in fantasy games... thats just will lead to silly things..

[Grix]

I added an update related to threat ranges. I do believe that is a good point worth considering. I do not believe the greatsword is properly represented though. Given how deadly they are by comparison to literally any other weapon. I very much believe they either deserve reduced critical threat, or increased multiplier to actually be 'on par' with the other 2 handed weapons out there. It just drives me nuts that the most powerful 2h weapon of all, is treated as the least powerful by NWN.

[Grix]

Also I want to add! I actually have chopped wood with my greatsword. And with my battle axe. They both worked equally. Try chopping wood with a battle-axe or great axe and you'll have the same issue. It's about the shape of the edge on the weapon. A battle weapon, such as a Great Axe or Greatsword have a very fine, thin edge. Wood-cutting implements have very fat edges because they cut more so by bludgeoning the wood and not by actually slicing it. We've done demonstrations of this in the dojo. A wood axe will only cut a stationary non-moving target. The edge is too fat to actually impact a moving target enough to break through even heavily padded clothing. It's all about edge geometry.

That is the big difference between a tool and a weapon when we're talking about slashing or cutting implements.

[Egon the Monkey]

If there was a push to get some realism up in here, it would have resulted in vastly more powerful ranged weapons ages ago :P
The point of a game is to be an interesting entertainment and storytelling machine.
NWN is based on D&D, where hitpoints claim to be an abstraction, but don't behave like one.  Any "realism" in combat runs up against the existence of magic armour anyway.  What's more important to the game is in providing a variety of good weapon picks and tactics that are interesting to fight against.

Greatswords are powerful two-handed weapons in NWN because they are 2d6 not 1d12. This gives them an average of (3.5+3.5=7) damage per swing as opposed to the greataxe's 6.5. They are less likely to dish out anticlimactic fight-ending crits, and deliver consistently better damage against uncrittable monsters.

If I were to suggest any change to crits it would be to  balance all great weapons for 2x crit, and remove the "buff your STR and pray for a 20" tactic of melee combat. As it's very boring to go up against, coming down to if the lucky shot lands. Having more x3 crits in the game will just lead to more uncounterable Warlord rage deaths and silly duels where you're up against that big-crit chance of instawin.

[Grix]

The IRL to Fantasy thing is a matter of balance always. Just the right amount of each to make a compelling fantasy world. I'd say when comparing Greatsword to any other 2h weapon, sure the idea is the damage is more consistent but it doesn't actually work out that way. Both of them do almost the same damage on regular hits. The greatsword relies on 2 lucky rolls where as the other 2h weapons can end a fight in 1 lucky roll.

It seems though, the best option would be an adjustment to threat range to be equal to the falchion, rather than the multiplier. I think this would balance the 2h weapons well and make greatswords shine a little more. Right now they are just so very weak compared to literally every other 2h weapon option. Especially when you factor in folks with the other 2h weapons who have imp crit or keen edge. The balance just goes out the window

[SamB123]

Honestly, this would require a TON of work. If you're going to do it for one, do it for every weapon. Furthermore, consider that weapons such as greatswords are almost polearms in terms of length and size. (See: https://external-preview.redd.it/gCaDTgEQNcCRopHEdLyMTk_ZdWL1p-jFQHZP6JibJtc.jpg?auto=webp&s=f768d632bdbcc686aa65d066d98c649bc0c4df71 ).

Furthermore, other weapons and armor would need reworks. None of what 3rd Edition/NWN decided were reasonable is actually consistent with IRL.


That said...

Right now they are just so very weak compared to literally every other 2h weapon option.

I think Greatswords have the best selection in the drop table right now, so I'm not sure how they're weak. They also do 2d6 damage, which gives them more chance to do better average damage.

[Poolson]

Oh man this is my jam. It is an absolute joy to chit-chat about this.

Anyways, let me head this post with a big ol': NWN doesn't strive for realism. It has double weapons, scythes as weapons, treats longswords as one handed weapons and everyone walking around in full-plate, which is custom-tailored to your measurements and expensive as sin. It is good, clean, sword and sorcery fun. You can do mental gymnastics as I do to make it fit with what you know (longswords being short swords, shortswords being daggers, daggers being knives, fullplate being ambiguous platemail like brigandine, banded mail, what have you) but ultimately: it don't matta.

That all said and done: As you may know as a practitioner of the martial arts yourself, blade alignment is crucial and armor was typically prepared to be rounded, so that the blow would glance, rather than hit dead-on. That said, an actual greatsword (not a longsword) of such heft still has a lot of weight to it, and would have more likelihood of inflicting internal injury (broken ribs, internal bleeding, what have), even if it never made contact with the skin, nor broke the armor that protected it. 2D6 on a 19-20/X2 is an honestly good depiction of its capability, I think. It inflicts pain in great abundance and the greatsword, I'd say, it is probably one of the best weapons in NWN, simply because of its consistency and being able to reduce it to 15-20/x2 via imp crits and keen. It's also a good depiction that you can inflict substantial, worthwhile injury with half-swording, by stabbing them in the gaps between the gorget and visor, armpits, groin, what have you.

As for one handed swords: I think they're capable enough in their capability. The function of the sword (why you'd ever use it over a mace) is the control over the weapon. It does sufficient damage and can crit more than a mace.  I think that's represented well enough in its stat.

Whereas the axe is different, in that the axe also has to worry about blade alignment, but all of that force is focused completely in the head. It's almost like a bludgeon of a sorts, which is why you'll see it dent barbutes, as opposed to the sword, where it just doesn't have a chance in the same practice. Hence why when an axe connects, it **really** connects. It might not split the helmet fullscale, or the pauldron, but the internal injury is assured. Broken bones, torn muscle, all that bad news.

It's the same logic behind the deathstroke technique with the sword, where all of that force of the blow is centered solely in the pommel or the width of the crossguard. (and, if you care for etymology, it's where the phrase 'pummeling someone' comes from.)

Both pale in comparison to a mace, which doesn't have to worry about blade alignment at all and is the ideal instrument of murder for men in armor, and the spear/halberd (reach is OP). I wish the maul was the 1d12 x3 martial weapon and the hammer was the exotic 2d4 x4 bludgeoning weapon, but, it is what it is,

I would be wholly on board for a 1d12 20/x3 piercing weapon though, like an Estoc, But I think the greatsword represents its capability perfectly as-is in numbers.

[Richørd]

It´s just a videogame and currently implemented swords are also balanced with the Greatsword´s current threat range and multiplier in mind.

Maybe the wrong game to be super nerdy about swish and swoosh sword techniques when we got anime-scythes apparently being the deadliest crit weapons aside from warmaces.

Not to mock your hobby, I am just saying that if this was something like For Honor, War of the Roses or any other weapon-based medieval fighting game ... you know. This would be making much more sense.

Also strength wise speaking swords are good weapons.

[SN]

Come on, Grix, the greatsword, according to all the NERDY statistics including massive NWN data-mining is actually the most DPS heavy weapon of all the weapons ?????

[Arslefjun]

I always considered greatsword to be the best 2hander in NWN myself.