EfU: Unfair for New PC's?

[Valo56]

This may come off as a rant. But it's mostly a suggestion. Maybe I'm just having really, really bad luck. I don't know.. Anyway:

Since I came back, EfU has seemed quite a bit different than it used to. There have been many excellent updates that have really made the current chapter great (EfU:M remains my favorite because I love undead hunting), but there's also a problem, I think. It seems needlessly harsh on new characters/players. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we need to make it EASY, but at present it seems hopeless to try and climb up the ladder and become strong enough to hold your own on the server without being a burden to everyone around you.

Almost all of my characters except for rogues (there is no shortage of stuff for rogues) have failed to pick up much in the way of loot. It's a struggle to maintain level 5. 6 is almost out of the question. Unless I join a faction I can never get out of the armor/clothes I stepped through the portal with. Every time there's a DM quest I die, and then am either kicked out of the quest by other players or just don't get any loot, and often don't get XP. I walk away from these events penniless and typically writing up my next concept. At times when I see a shout or sending for a DM quest I feel like just logging out or running the other way.

In EfU:M and early EfU:R, this server was great because it felt like I could casually do a few quests but overall focus on my character's story and agenda. At this point, however, I feel like if I do anything I'm going to get shit on. Supplies are scarce and equipment is nowhere to be seen. After talking about it in IRC, I was told that these days there's an emphasis on buying stuff, rather than finding stuff on quests...

So I guess the road to having a good time will have to be paved with the blood of rothe. This seems like such a huge change from the server I joined back in the early 2nd chapter (under a different name), where slaughtering random monsters on the road was not the only way to succeed, and at many points in time wasn't even viable. But now it seems that I'm being pressured to do just that.

-Remove the "Dissipating" tag from all items from low-end quests EXCEPT for the purple crystals, which should keep the dissipating tag for obvious reasons. Overall I find this tag on low level loot does no good for anyone. Honestly, who cares if some new character gets a few bull's strength potions? Alternatively, let potion brewers spend a bit of gold and XP to "recharge" them and make them permanent, or make items that do the same.

-Either remove the penalties to starting room armor and weapons or make these weapons and armor more abundant in low level quests. I'm not asking for full plate to drop, just for some 6 and maybe, rarely, 7 ac armors to drop on low level quests, as well as other armors. Alternatively, let metalworkers go to the workmill or some place similar to have starter gear (either their own or someone else's) reforged/repaired into something basic, typically without penalties but, perhaps with the inclusion of additional ores and good rolls on metalworking, minor bonuses. I can understand why having worn out gear with penalties is good thematically, but when people arrive in Sanctuary it should be more than possible for them to pick up new gear or fix up their old gear.

-Include a wider variety of useful loot and less useless crap like herbs and cantrip scrolls. Even if it's just stuff like Bronze Bracers (+1 dicsipline) or other minor stuff. It used to be that you could readily get a full set of "crap gear" on a low level PC in a few resets. Most of this would have only very minor skill or save bonuses, and rarely be something considered "good," but it was still nice. Give us more stuff and less junk

But.. maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm just supremely unlucky and have become bitter after several failed concepts and bad experiences. But the server seems much harder and much less fun than it did in early EfUR, and certainly less fun than it was in EfUM and EfUA. Yes, you can say that there was supply bloat during those periods in EfU's history. But this is the opposite and it's much worse in my opinion because the things being thrown against us sure as hell aren't getting easier. (Note: I don't want them to get easier. I like going up against the Dread, and Orogs, and other things. I just want more of a reward for the things I do so I'm not perpetually stuck at levels 4 and 5 with no loot, no gear and honestly no fun.)

EfU has always been challenging and I liked that. It's been more challenging than any other NWN server, and even any other videogame. I was okay with this. I AM okay with this. I like this. But now it just seems unfair. :/

[VanillaPudding]

As someone who does well with gathering potions and supplies, I still cannot but help to agree with your basic feelings on this subject. The low and even mid-level content definitely leaves something to be desired anymore. There is a lack of things that allow a somewhat smooth transitioned towards the next "tier" of difficulties / quests, the dissipating potions are nothing but frustrating to a casual player (as they only benefit events following the one you took part in already, and perhaps you don't have time for that), and there really is too much "trash" floating around in the quest loot these days.

 

[TimeOutForSwing]

I feel like the loot balance is a lot more variable now.  I've been on quests and gotten not a single useful thing then gone on the same quest later and been showered with riches.  DM content has seemed pretty fair in terms of reward vs. risk to me, though I have also done stupid things and ended up penniless for long stretches.

[Demure]

I mean, on some level yeah I agree that it's rough getting started. But it's also easier than it ever was before, with CAB to 6 and crazy rewarding low level quests in terms of gold. As far as equipment... yeah, that's still really hard to find. It hurts martials a lot more than it does casters, I think.

[Pigadig]

I think it's less that it hurts new PCs at low levels than it hurts new players. There's a known chain of quests that most experienced players, regardless of their overall skill, can easily go through on their Upper (and now Lower) based PCs to be fairly well supplied at lowish levels, without needing another PC as an ally. New players, or those who haven't played in a long time, either won't know or won't recall the route and therefore have fewer supplies than perhaps they "should".

The max six through to max eight quests though can vary wildly in rewards from basically nothing to sizeable returns, so it is pretty rough at times once you've reached that stage.

[Cruzel]

I agree with valo, and am noticing a lot of people mentioning that the low level grind is a pretty terrible experience now that we're having all these events killing long-lived and prominent PCs.

I mean, on some level yeah I agree that it's rough getting started. But it's also easier than it ever was before, with CAB to 6 and crazy rewarding low level quests in terms of gold. As far as equipment... yeah, that's still really hard to find. It hurts martials a lot more than it does casters, I think.

I beg to differ with this.  Yes, there are a couple of quests that have very high gold payouts. But, out of these there are quest take limits on most of them, and the best paying ones are also 2-4. Once you're level 5 you're cut off from a lot of the quests that are "crazy rewarding in terms of gold." Once you're level 6 and you go on an event or just have a rough explorable/questing experience/pvp that drains all your supplies... You're pretty much boned.

Personally, I would rather see it easier to get supplies and have everyone be supply bloated (With at least basic supplies like healing, barkskin, blur, PFE/PFG) and have the luxury buffs (divine favor, seeing, haste, etc.) remain in the domain of  high end quest drops, DM loot, and PC crafters.   This was generally the case in previous chapters, and it made pvp and questing generally more exciting IMO.

[Damien]

Good luck.

I agree with all of this, but this has already come up many times since efurs existence and is shot down.

Most hilariously of all was my idea to add in more dissipating potions, which was also shot down, which was ironic.

I mean this with bitter love as always.

[Howlando]

I am very sympathetic to Valo's situation and any new player who finds EFU (particularly at the low levels) to be challenging. I will remind players that, as written in the fugue, any player who is just legitimately lost in frustration at the low levels is more than welcome to approach me or another active DM for special help - we will spawn you your Wrap of Struggle, we will pat you on your head, and you will probably do just fine (until you get to high levels and then we snatch it away).

I and other DMs (all unprofessionals) are erratic and flighty presences in the EFU community, but I can assure you that our intentions are to keep things balanced - neither too hard, nor too easy. Unfortunately, it turns out that balancing things for such a diverse playerbase is extremely difficult.

Unfortunately as the server has aged, we have very little time for actual play-testing so are heavily reliant upon player feedback and what we observe in character inventories.

When established PCs have fortunes of tens of thousands of gold and every single inventory page clogged with the very best supplies, it makes us worried. And it is an observable fact that EFU players never let slip what things are too hilariously rewarding unless heavily prodded and guilt-tripped.

I fully encourage players to make specific suggestions when it feels like some content is too challenging, just as I do when it seems too rewarding (bearing in mind that most quests are heavily randomized).

I also welcome suggestions for how the low-level experience could be improved, ideally making it seem like less of a circuit and less of a "grind."

I don't like the necessity of quest-take-limits, but unfortunately many players are enthusiasts of staying at low-levels as long as possible in order to build up huge supplies of healing and gold. And believe me, it can get ridiculous.

I do have a few tips though:

1) Healing herbs are not useless. Being able to heal yourself is fairly essential, and it is deliberately the case that (unlike in previous chapters) you probably can't rely on on dropped healing potions and rods to get you through your healing needs. Taking either heal or having friends who do may be the key to change an unprofitable quest to a profitable one.

2) The EFUR economy is much less drop dependent than in previous chapters. A lot more gold does indeed drop for players, but it is anticipated that - rather than being hoarded - characters will use this gold to buy what they need from other characters. Although I am sympathetic to arguments that this doesn't always work well in practice (due to issues of play time, etc.), I don't think that the solution is to invent NPCs to take the jobs of hard-working PCs would help either. But there may be room for some improvements here, like making crafting less caster-based somehow or more fun in general.

3) I don't think it's a secret to anyone, but maybe it could be repeated. Allied buff-caster/fighter-type is what breaks EFU and NWN and always has. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and it's not to say that it's a requirement, but it really makes an enormous difference. Two or three friends with similar play-times who are playing complimentary builds can just destroy things in a way that lonewolf PCs probably can't ever hope to match. And this is one reason that it's so hard to balance this place. That's not to say that I don't think lone-wolves are cool! I think they're great - just be aware it is a harder road.

[Stranger]

It might help if the dungeon masters were particularly generous when giving experience to lower level characters. Since character advancement ends at 6, everything leading up to that should be an open canvas for rewarding stellar roleplayers. Why give anything similar to the experience you're giving a level 8 character, for example, in the same party?

Even the board. Hard times are ahead for everyone, after all, and lowbies won't stand a whisper of a chance.

I remember when my priest of Mask was chewing out a paladin over the "sanctimony" of Detect Evil. derfo—a hidden observer—directly moved me from level 4 to 5 just for making him laugh. That was a very encouraging (if startling) moment for the character and definitely contributed to my sense of commitment.

Despite my personal aversion to being coddled with safety or sympathy resurrections in the hardcore environment of the server, I do like knowing when and how I am a good thing for this server. I'd bet everyone does. Experience points, in sums of all sizes, go a long way in showing that without the time commitment of personalized equipment rewards. Perhaps a lauding tell.

Alignment shifts are also something to speak of. Morality isn't exclusive to priests and paladins. It may not be everyone's cup of tea to receive a subtle indication that their character is slipping away from their original ethics. (I like dynamic alignments, but I've heard that it can be seen as punitive.) However, being given points toward evil on an evil character? Chaos on a chaotic character? Always a badge of pride for me—one that doesn't go away no matter how many times the character dies.

It means that they did something worth doing. And worth watching.

[sharkinajar]

1) Healing herbs are not useless. Being able to heal yourself is fairly essential, and it is deliberately the case that (unlike in previous chapters) you probably can't rely on on dropped healing potions and rods to get you through your healing needs. Taking either heal or having friends who do may be the key to change an unprofitable quest to a profitable one.

Word. Herbs are a big help. If you are at like 2 hp below, and drop an herb on yourself right before battle, you'll have regen while fighting essentially.

[GrumbarGrumbler]

Getting beaten into poverty is not as much of a problem if there is a more uh... gentle climb out.  I can appreciate how rough it must be to die, be deleveled and have no supplies.  I think getting rid of all second tier dissipating items and making them non dissipating may be a good idea.  So lower level PCs have a fair amount of low level healing?  Is that a problem? Are cure light wounds and cure moderates a serious balance issue? They have no real influence in PvP and won't matter in a tough DM quest.  Maybe take dissipating off all low level buffs besides the blurs?

[Paha]

Suggestions are always welcome, though we will always have different opinions of what level of difficult each likes, and it can always be argued. As it has always been, I hear points on both end from completely new players and those that have returned to efu after a while. As SC said, if there are concrete ideas and well thought insight on the matter, it is most definitely going to rouse up some thoughts in our end too.

[EventHorizon]

Alignment shifts are also something to speak of.

I totally agree and find these highly rewarding, even when I ask for them (which is fine and almost always appropriate both ways).

Since character advancement ends at 6,

I bring this up to question and/or disagree with it. It's definitely true that the system makes it hard to get past 6, but I feel like 6-9 is quite doable, yet challenging (I haven't quite broken into 8 yet, so many deaths midway!). And that's fine - I feel like those extra couple of levels can be a well-deserved, yet not overpowering edge. However, all that is predicated on this:

As an UPPER PC, it is trivially easy to reach 4, and almost difficult to avoid hitting 6 soon thereafter unless your PC is a particularly brave/paladinic one. The solo quest routes are quite organic and fairly easy to figure out, even as a cold-dropped player (as I was, with the slightest hints from my pal). I feel like if you can get to 5-6, you're pretty much viable in the "big boy stuff" on the server.

However, this is all limited to Upper-based PCs. I don't know that others (god forbid, Stewards and monsters) have nearly as easy a time ​getting to the "minimal" 4.

[Pandip]

A few ideas regarding adjusting the level 3-5 grind and its shortcomings:

Make the low level, soloable 2-4 content more visible to new and old players alike. There are several of these quests that are hidden away from the beaten paths and I could understand why there's some frustration from not knowing the 'circuit' of content. At the end of the default start delivery chain, make the NPC mention the plethora of things a player can solo. A "Is there any work for me?" that leads into the NPC talking about the opportunities, which leads into dialogue options that have the NPC elaborate might work to give the quests more visibility. A similar dialogue tree in the Grotto might help. Board postings in the Grotto / HoG of specific needs. Ambient sendings that trigger twice a day during peak times inviting characters to help with low level content.

To circumvent the 2-4 supply grind where PC's stick to those levels to grind out gold / loot, I'd recommend front loading the new PC experience with a healthy portion of supplies, either through a very prominent and very profitible low level quest that's a once or twice take limit or through just handing the supplies to new PC's once they get into the module proper. You could then adjust the other quests to be more modest / less exploitable while increasing their experience rewards so that PC's aren't stuck in an unfortunate situation where they've died too many times to do anything useful at their level.

I've always been a fan of favor turn-in systems as a means of promoting faction activity while giving a supply gain in exchange. Seeing more of those might help provide an alternative for 'quest crushing'.

Balancing the server to appeal to casual players who throw together quest groups on a whim versus those who have a trinity of quest crushers is incredibly awkward, though. On one hand, most of the quest content feels brutal / unrewarding for players who don't have a firm grasp of what they're doing, while being fairly rewarding (or at the very least, not a detriment) to players who are veterans. It's just a fact of life that someone more experienced is going to have an easier time at something than someone that isn't, but when there's such a significant gap between someone like Valo's enjoyment of the content and someone else's ability to crush, it's a bit staggering. But I'm not even sure if there's a scripted way to help alleviate the pains of this situation.

[Apocryphal Misconceptions]

Trying to change the status quo by playing around with lessening rewards in terms of gold or resources will really only have an impact on those that struggle to begin with. Veterans will find a way to coop so much more easily. It might be better to make supplies abundant for all and instead up the challenge on the NPC side of the game. Somewhat more AB, DMG or more use of Dispel Magic if needed. It'll take some delicate tweaking and it might never be just right for everyone.

Veterans generally reach level 9 or 10 with less effort than some people have to reach 7 or 8. So it might be an idea to just increase the drop rate of potions on most early & mid level quests. Give the less advanced players a little more of what they need to man up to the challenges of end game quests. It won't affect the veterans as much as it will for the less experienced and larger part of the playerbase, simply because vets don't struggle to begin with.

Some tips (you might have read them elsewhere here):

1. Don't get swarmed with enemies unless you're certain they cannot threaten you. If I don't play a heavy AC / HP character, I won't let more than 1 NPC attack me at the same time. I'll move them to the more tanky characters or I'll distract them by running around a bit (in a SAFE!!! direction). If you don't know what's safe: do what you need to survive. It's the responsibility of others to do the same. I mean: it's probably not your role to tank these mobs after all.

2. If it makes sense for your character: go to the sewers, kill rats and collect a score of invisibility potions. Get 10 or 20. It's very easy XP and very easy access to basic supplies (mind ward, invisibility).

3. Slingshot (BigOrcMan, 2016 - a few posts down). Generally speaking: if I see a group that I know will beat a more difficult quest without my help, I'll ask to tag along. Most people here are happy to include others so as long as there's no protests from an IC perspective, you're good to go.

4. No tumble? WALK into battle and WALK out of battle (the moment you're inside AOO range, or at least do it when around mobs). Practice this! Holding down shift while mouse clicking with make you walk as a good alternative to detect mode.