Messages

[L4 Rogue Perk: Ruins Raider]

L4 Rogue Perk: Ruins Raider
You have long experience of the undead and ancient constructs, and know just how best to break them
Bonus: 5% Negative Immunity. +1 Dodge AC vs Construct.
Pure Bonus: When you land a Sneak Attack on a target that is immune to Critical Hits, you deal 1d3 damage per 3 rogue levels instead.

Look at "Lunge Technique:Pierce the Soul" from Fencer. It's the perfect fix for a class that relies on things not being crit-immune.
Let rogues have something like this, given so much high level stuff is undead/constructs.
If that's too hard to code, could be a flat +1d4/4 Rogue levels or something.
Yes it's strong but only because it removes the utter disappointment of fighting crit-immune stuff.

L4 Rogue Feat: Combat Momentum
Pure Bonus: Gain the Cleave feat.

One of the reasons rogues struggle is they can kill things quick but then not follow up. And they are generally DEX builds that can't cleave.

[Grease and KD aren't unbeatable but they are absurdly good value]

Thanks Vlaid, some good points there. I hadn't considered the aspect stacking so much.
On reflection, I agree with you. I also think it supports my overall idea of:

• Disables kinda suck because you don't get a cool story out of losing to one. Theres no tension or risk. You either bounced the opener or Got Fucked.
• These are much better options than most other disables, as they are more reliable. Both for PVE and PVP.
• So I feel either they're fine and other ones are underpowered. Or they lack the counter-play other disables have been given by EfU.
• Consider how effective Clarity or Polarization are against their relevant disables, and how easily you can pump Mind saves
• Once again I've been nerd-sniped by the fascinating ways EfU's loot and quest design can massively affect how good Feats and Spells are, regardless of how powerful they might seem to be.

Grease and KD aren't unbeatable but they are absurdly good value

Give up that 1 AB or whatever if you really think KD is that oppressive.

I don't think KD effects are 'oppressive' so much as 'needlessly much better than similar options'.
Consider why Fight or Flight took a recent nerf.
KD (Feat) is good because combat moves are uncommon, but the opportunity cost of 'resist combat move' is high.
It's better than Disarm as it works on NPCs and stops PCs running away.

It's very easy to be nearly immune to KD/combat moves without a discipline potion... You just need to make slightly different gearing choices if that's something you want.

Very valid, and something that I think underlines the odd meta we have reached.

• It's unsatisfying to fight anything that is nigh-immune to stuff.
• NWN and EFU have always granted huge advantage to a buffed attacker
• Saves, Discipline, etc have become more available than ever and saves builds are very common.
• Which gives us a bit of a PvE arms race. Where one max 11 quest's threat level is in large part because Grease bypasses most defences.
• It also makes 'surprise attack and run away' even stronger. Because a buffed attacker is so hard to pin down, but a surprise KD or Grease has a very good shot at landing even on high reflex builds.

Discipline is expensive
Normal D&D rules are:
AB vs AC / DC vs Saves / Opposed Check where you both roll AB/Skill/Attribute

• NWN added AB vs Discipline. Which broke things because BAB is free.
• Yes, KD costs a Feat. But a Feat is normally only worth 3 Skill Points. Maxing Discipline costs 3-4 times that
• The attacker is rolling at -4 but with AB, a stat they already boosted to hit you with.
• The defender is rolling with a skill that has no other use but stopping combat moves.
• Imagine how broken Taunt would be, if it used your AB rather than a skill!

What might be more exciting to face?
Could it be better to lower the stakes of failing a save/Discipline check, rather than let PCs buy off their risk with save builds?
It's why Burst of Radiance is my very favourite spell. If you fail the save, blindness is bad but doesn't stop you acting. If you succeed, they still get to hit you with damage and a debuff! Same with Lunar Bolt being a save for half strength drain. They're always worth using, even vs a saves optimiser! Absolute genius design.

Watching a duel with a lot of back and forth and potion chugging is interesting. HP goes up and down, there's tension! A fight where one participant gets disabled and panel-beaten isn't. It's why DMs regularly jack up the CON and WIS on a possessed monster, so they won't go down to a single spell.

Grease didn't get better, everything else got less effective

Grease might be too good but it's the same it's always been.

Not quite. EfU did add that scary -2 Reflex debuff if you have SF. Otherwise, hard agree that it's still too good, and boring to get hit by as as it's a cheap total lockdown.
The DM team have modified a lot of spells including Grease. I trust them to have the skills to make it more fun. 
Even just making the KD only apply on Round 1-2 could do it.

Otherwise, you're right, Grease has stayed the same! But other disables have got comparatively weaker.

• Because it's easier to get saves, the flat DCs of trinkets/Tanglebags are rather beatable in PVP, especially against a prepared opponent.
• I keep finding martials who have equal or higher buffed Will than Fort. Because NPCs use stuff like Fear and Sound Burst that wrecks you if you fail.
• Especially in high-level content, a lot of monsters are Immune to Mind-Affecting. And at least 1 Gloom also applies Mind Immunity. only I think 2 quests have some Grease-immune NPCs.

Arent you immune to grease with a blur potion now?

Didn't seem to work when I was doing a quest full of Grease.

[Why do people hate Grease?]

I've been in or around a few PvPs (and That Quest With the Grease) lately, and Grease and Knockdown seem to punch way above their weight now.
They just seem to hit and then well. You're screwed. Not even anything you can do to prebuff, as there's not a hard counter to either.
They were always good, but kind of stand out more against the current level of saves and supply. Because they bypass both quite handily.
Just search Grease on the Discord and see the amount of memeing and eye rolling about it.

Why do people hate Grease?

• It's a L1 spell that can outperform L3-4 disabling spells for anything other than a gank.
• Just compare it to Color Spray, or Gust of Wind.
• It's vs Reflex. A common Dump Save, as 90% of Reflex saves will not Just Stop You. And Reflex seems to be the weak save of most NPCs.
• It's pure Reflex and ignores Spell Resistance/Immunity. Most other disables have the drawback of being Mind, Fear or Negative, all of which there's decent gear and buffs against.
• Unlike Fear or Paralysis, the only counter move is to fireball your own ally 😲
• Similarly, why Horizakaul's Shout is so nasty. High DC, unblockable disable, plus damage. And targeting Sonic not Mind etc.

Grease dunks on both Enchanters and Necromancers

• Grease is the one disabling spell that can work on 95% of NPCs. Whereas lots of quest NPCs are immune to Mind spells and/or necromantic debuffs.
• Compare this to Mind spells. Which similarly will Fuck You Up. But have to get past Shell, Clarity, and/or an abundance of Mind/Fear Saves gear.
• You can face down a GSF enchanter as an 8 Wis barbarian just fine if you dunk a Clarity!
• Just make sure to reapply if you get dispelled. We have play and counter-play. It's pretty fun and proactive!

Similarly, Knockdown is brutally effective because:

• It's free to use. It's -4AB but you can do it forever with no cooldown, and it also does damage.
• AB boosters are more available than the +12 Discipline from Potions of Discipline. Which you can't prebuff with as it's not a Spell.
• The defence is a class skill many PCs don't have, but everyone has saves. NPCs seem to have worse AC but better saves than in earlier chapters.
• Some characters have worse saves, but we still get Martial PCs looted out with better Will than Fort 🤔.
• It's just uncommon enough to be useful. Stacking saves will protect you more reliably than stacking Discipline, so most PCs go for saves.
• It's one of the extremely few disables you might be able to get a Druid with.

How could KD be a bit more like other disabling effects?
I think, either nerf the supply a bit, or give it a stack of defences to beat in the same way as Mind spells?

• What if Grease did 1 Round Slow not 1 round KD? Still strong for a L1 but not a total lockdown.
• What if Expeditious Retreat granted Immunity: Knockdown for the duration? That seems on par with Clarity vs Mind spells, as Clarity lasts longer and removes effects too.
• Could Disarm, KD and Called shot be a check against Athletics instead? As that's not just the 'don't get KDed and die' skill.
• What if Knockdown/Disarm had a 12s cooldown like Taunt does now? This seems a popular mod on other servers.

Inked Scroll, Fermented Potion Bottle, Charged Wand

Items for Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, and Craft Wand that allow someone with the appropriate feat to produce a finished item for free or at significantly reduced gold cost.

Maybe have a minimum painting/alchemy rank to take advantage of it. Maybe have the Wand come in with 10 or 5 charges when finished for balance.

Put these on the general loot table as a 'pick your own reward' token that requires dragging it to a crafter to take advantage of.

Neat idea. Given the scarcity of crafters this chapter (especially Astros) that makes me think.
A really useful bit of loot could be Gloves of Crafting. Items that Expire on Reset but give you the Craft Wand, Scribe Scroll, or Brew Potion feat.
Rather than letting people just buy the feat and profit forever, it could be a way to let people do the occasional job lot. 

I have realised that these have the added benefit of 'You can't wield a knife or shield with them as they are a two-handed weapon'. It seems like Magic Staves proliferated when we got the fantastic new low-fantasy skins for them. But they don't disable the offhand, which is one reason we have lots of Shield Arcanists. The other being +1 Aspect Slot.

A few good two-handed Wizard/Sorc/Astro/Priest weapons would really up the aesthetic variety of the server. Right now, you may as well have a Torch or Tray or Gem just as an Aspects/Stat Stick as it looks alright. Leaving that offhand slot open is just a waste.

Point Blank Shot at L4 was a brilliant idea in v5, that gave rangers a little bit of compensatory shooty power.

But since Improved Critical became available at 6, it's become a cursed feat.
If you wait for your free Point Blank Shot at 4, you don't have enough feats to get Rapid Shot and Improved Critical at 6.
Steppes Archer got given Point Blank Shot at L1, solving this issue. Plus +2 undispellable DEX and free good arrows!

Giving Ranger Point Blank Shot at 3 would be enough, as then you could take Rapid Shot at L3.
Giving Ranger Rapid Shot at 4 or 5 instead could be interesting. Wouldn't boost the power of a Ranger dip, but would mean you can have the same feat stack of Point Blank/Rapid/Improved Critical that a Steppes Archer or Marksman can have. And would open up the possibility of playing a Zen Archer caster-ranger without having to take 13 DEX.

Even though you are far weaker with the lack of a stacking DEX boost and free ammo.

[deliberately get yourself surrounded]

I love this spell and have used it a lot. Very cool in the right scenario, decent-ish and thematic L3 attack spell for a Hatred Cleric. Just because you don't normally get a L3 AoE Attack spell on a Cleric.
Even so, you have to be slightly mad to use it. Because the only way to get the full use out of the AoE is to deliberately get yourself surrounded .
It's so rarely used that I've literally had players ask me what I just did when I cast it!

It's not really a L4 spell. It's more like a L3 spell that you only get from Hatred Domain.
It's got a lot of good points, but too many drawbacks. Hammer of the Gods does a better job for most of what you want a L4 Evocation with no friendly fire for.
The damage type is fantastic, but actually aiming it is it a right pain compared to HoTG, which also does Divine Damage.

Essentially, Castigate is a cone spell with considerably worse range.

• It's Target Self, Radius 6.66m
• A Cone is Length 10m
• If you want it to hit the whole group, you have to run up and deliver it from inside the group, not from just behind your own lines.

Castigate does about 50% more average damage than Hammer of the Gods but Hammer:

• Does that nasty 1d6 Round of Daze, which is usually better, as that's a big AoE disabling effect
• Targets Will, a save that characters, especially monsters, are usually worse at than Fortitude.
• Has a nice comfy 20m range, so it's both lower risk and much easier to place where you need it.

It's really bad vs posessed bosses or in PVP, because it is zero range and slow.
Any sort of moving target will escape this spell.

• If I use Hammer of the Gods, I will track my target. The spell will land on them if they were within 20m when I started casting.
• If I use Inflict Critical Wounds, I will chase my target. They will be hit if they were within Touch Range when I started casting.
• If I use Castigate, it drops on my final location. The enemy has to be within the 6.66m range when I finish casting.
• Castigate is wierdly a lot better off an item, as items fire at the start of your round, not the end.

Making Castigate Touch Range (or short, if you can't have a Touch Range AoE) would make it work properly

• If it was Touch Range, then the enemy couldn't casually evade it by moving.
• It would also get a 2m range boost that would mean it was viable to fire point-blank, rather than from ahead of your own frontline.

Yeah. I think it would work best if you can't use runner and have to leave town personally.
It could be a nice way to add risk/reward for high level merchants, by getting them out where they might get banditted on a known route. Especially if it involves an NPC sending of HEY BRO YOUR STUFF IS READY FOR PICKUP.

Great job, excellent Obviously Off The Rails Sorc who was genuinely unnerving to be around.
I loved every trip where I made Robert the FE Aberrant Ranger/Astral Enthusiast throw up after you Very Obviously RPed Teleporting Us Through the Madness Dimension.

I got my first magic bag from looting Robert's body. 100/10

So the punchline there was that up until L9, Robert did not have a single rank invested in Alchemy!
He was a detection ranger, healbot and herbmaxxer who got into Alchemy as a side gig and to teach Ramez.
And yet he was one of the Well's most prolific and profitable Alchemists while he was alive, and had 100% success with magic bag creation.
It was a combination of relentless gear scrounging, Crafter's Insight, Having Maqqari sing the Love Song To a Golem, and specialising in the DCs that were in his limits.

Generally I think the ideal case for petty crime/betrayal is 'easy to do/hard to get away with'.
Because that ensures a regular drip of Mysteries to Solve, but once you have a suspicion, proof is relatively easy.

Other option would be making them 0 weight and Untradeable. So it's just a representation of the knowledge you get off the records each morning.

Simply because how joining the faction is right now, combined with the fact that in the past, people have spread the other compendiums to people outside of the faction with little repercussion, because the culprit can be near impossible to figure out.

Could this be solvable by just making the Compendium assign the PC's name to it on purchase, like e.g. the Sandstone Ring/robes?

I think there's a point here. You can also see that Alter Self is Alright, but a lot better on a Bard who can make use of the extra APR to get use out of the comparatively weak forms. I played with Polymorph a lot in V5 but I did it on an Apothecary Rogue and so was benefiting hugely from 2 APR and sneak attack on Minotaur Mode.

The real selling points for mages are the special moves like Wyvern Poison, Spikes, long-duration Mind Immunity etc. And a lot of that's non-obvious. For example if you're running Stoneskin and using a form with a Creature Weapon, it'll bypass Stoneskin.

So everyone defaults to Manticore because it is obvious It's not even the most useful in most places! The spikes were always a bit overrated compared to other special moves IMO. You're an okay archer and don't need many buffs, but can't break DR, rapid shot, etc. The big, big tradeoff is usually 'can't use water'. So when someone Polymorphs you need to price in '-1 Healer' and them having a harder time self-healing. The amount of times I've yelled at wizards IC to stop plinking and heal :rofl:.

If the purely melee-focused shapes without any special moves took you up to 3/4 BAB, then I think they'd be competitive.

Given how many magic staves there are, quarterstaves feel kind of weirdly useless these days. They were the only two-handed weapon in wizard proficiency, and we now have two more classes that get that proficiency!

But quarterstaves got changed to a dual weapon years ago. So they require two feats to actually use, meaning they are *worse than useless* to most PCs who are likely to use them.

This feels odd for the simplest weapon in the game, literally six feet of wood.

Since the brilliant change where ambidexterity gives you weapon buffs to both weapons, a 1d6 Strength based double weapon isn't very appealing. Because you can't put your offhand away.

I think it could do with being a two-hander again. Please give us our suboptimal but iconic Beefy Wizard Headcracker of Last Resort back! 1d6 19-20 would not compete with all the powerful spears but it would mean it would be possible to actually hit someone with your skills stick.

It would mean that it is not an entirely useless weapon for Wizard Prof classes or STR rogues. Small wizards arguably do better at hitting people than big wizards. Because of how easy it is to get a high damage club that will have a 1.5 times strength multiplier for you.


Currently the only characters who use quarter staves are dual-wield monks, on account of being able to put out a ludicrous number of attacks and it having a better crit range than a kama.

It could probably also do with being a class skill for everyone, like for the other social skills, at that point.

I think there's something there, but only if decisions other than Taxes could have a big impact on store prices. If e.g. the presence of a lot of corruption (Jannies pocketing fines, people doing Brooking) etc jacked up the store prices like a tax rise did? Then we'd have interesting PC merchants because they'd be a source of conflict for people doing Shady Things. Otherwise it's just a smooth circuit of 'ask for low taxes, sell cheap potions, no risk'

Definitely, I think that making Merchant Lord just way better at reselling things would be more active and interesting than a wage, for example.