On Mass PvP (and a bit of mass PvE) - A Discussion

[Luke Danger]

So, there's an IG event recently that got me thinking about what happens with mass PvP. Some of the things about it, and some musings. I'm not hoping to encourage one line of thought or another, but I figure it's as good an opener to the discussion as possible and I think it's something worth discussing.

​Many fantasy or medieval stories have major battles as the climax or high points - Lord of the Rings has the Battle of Minas Tirith. Game of Thrones has the Battle of the Bastards in its latest season. How to Train Your Dragon 2 had the Glacial Sanctuary battle. So on and so forth - mass events where the plot all comes to ahead in a violent clash of force between two or more sides.
   
  Now it all falls in nicely in the movies, books, so on, but in Neverwinter Nights, particularly EfU, it's not so easy. Which is perhaps befitting of real battles, which were chaotic affairs where units had to rely heavily on their formations to maintain cohesion in the chaos.
   
  But this isn't just IC coordination, I feel. I think it is also, in part, OOC responsibility on all sides. It's okay to try and provoke the other side into an off the cuff LEEROY! as an IC matter - but from the OOC, it also means that such affairs will get confusing, fast. Dedicated PvP servers tend to have an advantage of having inbuilt teams. EfU lacks that, but it also means that it's not uncommon for off the cuff PvP to be blue on blue - guys who are blue attacking those who also are. Then NPCs sometimes get added to the mix and it gets worse, making it near impossible to maintain situational awareness. On one hand this is actually immersive -  battles are confusing, especially when it's irregualrs in an off the cuff on. But on the other hand, is it really FUN to be in an utter mess where you really are down to the luck and hoping you whack the right guy?
   
  There's also the build up - should there be restraint towards taking out players intended to be part of a major upcoming battle in order to have it play out in full story for all invovled, or should it be a free for all to seize every advantage before the battle is joined?
   
  This has been some tired rambling, but I do hope that it at least serves as a springboard for some discussion. Mass PvP can make some of the best events of the server, but are there OOC responsibilities tied to the IC ones as well to make a good story and battle fun for everyone, including the losers? Or is it ultimately a story that must write itself regardless of the complications, and there will be those who feel bitter over events?
   
  What are your thoughts, EfU?

[Knight Of Pentacles]

This "discussion" could easily be mistaken for a knee-jerk reaction to a particular incident and I'm not entirely certain I would understand the "outrage" given that there were no long term consequences for anyone involved.

But I'll humor it by saying that If you know there's a pretty good chance there's going to be mass pvp you really need to "/c setally" your known allies and hostile everyone else ahead of time. This is your responsibility and failure to do so is extremely discourteous. I've found that people who certainly know better are the worst for this and sometimes I think it's deliberate in order to give themselves an upper hand.

Further more if you intend on attacking you need to let a DM know ahead of time. Be specific about what you have in mind because it'll allow them to set up the npcs more easily if there are npcs nearby.

Apply a little common sense and it'll make everything so much easier...

[Mathamune]

ambiguity is good. enemy of my enemy is my friend. setally is very useful as KOP said. FDing someone always needs some type of justification. killing people before a battle seems like an IC decision rather than an OOC one. is that the type of character you're playing? should that character youre thinking about FDing have been more careful? maybe

[GorkaMorka]

This "discussion" could easily be mistaken for a knee-jerk reaction to a particular incident and I'm not entirely certain I would understand the "outrage" given that there were no long term consequences for anyone involved.

So it's a perfect opportunity to discuss things with a clear mind, isn't it?
 

[Luke Danger]

This "discussion" could easily be mistaken for a knee-jerk reaction to a particular incident and I'm not entirely certain I would understand the "outrage" given that there were no long term consequences for anyone involved.

  Then you've misread it heavily - it was not meant to be a rage post about something, but a springboard into a topic because in the aftermath it had me thinking on some of the complications that had arisen and made me wonder some things about other mass PvP events I had participated in my EfU career, and I thought it might be a topic worth discussing in the hopes of establishing some things clearer. I'm not miffed about the recent event (or at least the PvP itself), just became thoughtful after it had all ended.

But I'll humor it by saying that If you know there's a pretty good chance there's going to be mass pvp you really need to "/c setally" your known allies and hostile everyone else ahead of time. This is your responsibility and failure to do so is extremely discourteous. I've found that people who certainly know better are the worst for this and sometimes I think it's deliberate in order to give themselves an upper hand.

Further more if you intend on attacking you need to let a DM know ahead of time. Be specific about what you have in mind because it'll allow them to set up the npcs more easily if there are npcs nearby.

Apply a little common sense and it'll make everything so much easier...

  See, discussion like this.
 

[Anonymous Lemur]

I'm inclined to agree with Knight of Pentacles. Nothing transpired last night that was untoward on either side from an ooc perspective and I don't think you're trying to imply so even though it could read as such. I feel as though the chaotic nature of such battles is indeed ic and in fact extremely enjoyable. I'm not exactly sure what you want to establish clearer. Generally speaking beyond "/c setally your allies" before hand there's nothing more to consider and if you choose not to do so (or forget to) that's your prerogative.

[Paha]

Roleplaying by nature does not have a perfect process. None of the eventual events that transpire in events or individual encounters will satisfy everyone, nor will it meet standards of very different people.

As many have mentioned here, and what has been repeated over all the lengthy years of efu, is good sportmanship, common sense and good spirited competitive mind. This is a game. You all have your own stories to tell. You spin and weave your personal image of it, and it will clash with those of our other patrons views of the world and what should happen. It is both the beauty and danger of everything that is RP. However, because it is a game, we can invest in it, and we can also move on after all is said and done. Whether the attempt this time was a success or a failure in terms of ones aspirations. Sometimes it will be shitty, but that is also part of it. Sometimes it is glorious. Rarely is there truly situations where "losing" side does not feel regret, remorse, frustration or anger. Sometimes they do feel very satisfied. And all of it is fine. Oldest players have felt all of these feelings, and hopefully by now have learned that there are good and bad times, and truly, without the other there could not be any feeling achievement or joy in success.

Now more to the point - Always try to stay IC. Season your in character decisions with consideration and common sense, and steer away from clearly awkward or extremely confusing and situations you know would be very messy to handle. Usually mass events might be bit difficult to use for pvp, as individual attention is stretched very thin. Both DM and player alike. It is the nature of chaos and mass. With slight planning and considerate warning, things can surely be different. Even so, there will always be someone unsatisfied, and it is understandable. My advice is, use common sense, and if things turn sour, then take a breath. Take another breath, and remember that it's a game. It is not the first time you start anew. It is not the last. Your time up to this was not wasted, nor all the good experiences (or bad if it was only that) are void. We grow from them and we can assume new ideas and inspiration from our failures.

We won't have teams, or any of the sort, because EfU needs that freedom to turn around and attack your allies, if one so chooses. We also, while partly annoying because of the mechanics of the game, want there to that freedom and danger of mistakes, both from players handling of mouse and keyboard, or simple misunderstandings from IC point of view. It's part of it all. It's not perfect game, and that is fine. We've all accepted that. Honestly, perfection would be quite dull in long run. Make use of the tools you have, and try to find your own best situation and process to handle things.