The Bard

[Random_White_Guy]

It's not going to be an overly popular opinion but I'd like to talk about the problem of Bards on EFU. While it's always been known that Bards in EFU serve as an easy go to for a martial multiclass but in the past there was at least a degree of attempt to add RP to the pursuit. Recently It's almost so laughable that the EFU WIki even talks about it in the wrong context.

The Bard in EFU: City of Rings is many things. A tale spinner, a singer, a master of lore, an inspiring presence to allies and filling enemies with dread. Bards can be adept at a surprising number of roles that their namesake would not suggest. Some bards choose to focus on a more martial role - using their songs, magic and ability to use a wide array of trinkets, scrolls or wands to make up for the lack of might that a Fighter or Barbarian might have.

People use Bard multi-class to make up for their lack of buffs and wands. I can't think off hand of any Martial/Bard multiclass that played more Bardic than Martial in their pursuits whenver multiclassed. It's max AC from armor, shields, but still tumble and songs and wands and "ha ha I'm a martial with perks".

The amount of roleplaying expectation that is put into the bard multiclass by majority of the playerbase is something which can be called questionable at best. It's such a literal naked grab for power hammering default or specialzied bardsongs, even after all these years of EFU still stripping naked to buff themselves, and using wands and scrolls for a ridiculous amount of power shift over a pure class for the sake of using Shield Wands, Dispel wands, low level buffs, and scrolls.

In past chapters there have been some great bard multiclasses particularly trying to come up with interesting builds to augment PRCs before EFU gave us the "Uncapped and no requirement" when you tried to build a passable RDD or similar. Sometimes people would make really cool Barbarian/Bard Skalds, or even yes Bard/Fighter multiclasses that at least had some conceptual legs.

However in this new chapter it's just really uninspired to see the class most said to be inspired and creative reduced to the same repetitions purely for an edge.

A few suggestions:

1) Limit multiclass options similar to Monk or Paladin in need of approval. Bards are supposed to have a degree of flair and presence and could easily have the same amount of RP requirements as either class. If someone wants to Multi a bard at least put some sort of check on it.

Or

2) Bards are one of the only classes that have UMD for a reason. I don't know if it's even possible in current scripting but force UMD for all wands instead of auto casting from arcane wands/scroll unless the Bard has 6 levels of Bard or some such.

[cmenden]

+1

I really love bard conceptually, and would love to see more Pure Bards!

[CorstoTerrore]

One thing that might, and I do say might, not certain... would be to reinstate the bard perks, maybe as slightly modified versions. Since they require a pure bard, there'd be more incentive to go pure.

That doesn't stop multiclassing, though. I've never been that big on limiting things, but I agree, I've seen some rather, hum... "interesting" bard multiclasses on this server. There have been characters who clearly do not portray the bard in any way, you just see them randomly use a song in combat with no RP involved, whether it be a shout, hymn or whatever... or they just strip nude to buff up and Bob's your uncle.

[LoveLess]

I have to admit, it has been rather prolific this chapter. Last chapter they definitely existed but for the most part they RP'd it in some manner and there were more pure bards by a longshot as well.

The bit that they just strip down, cast all their spells, and re-equip really does make it just silly. Most of the time there is no RP involved in it as well, not even some silly comment about getting disrobed. Most people seem to just roll out a Fighter/Rogue, or Fighter/Bard. Now I don't really see too big of an issue with the rogue split, it's a power build for sure, but the bard one is definitely a bit more out of place.

[Ziya]

+1


A Bard 4 Fighter 4 has +7 BAB compared to a Fighter 8 who has +8 BAB.

For losing 1 BAB and 2 Fighter Feats, the Multiclass gets tumble AC, song, spells (can cast Bull's Strength on himself with enough charisma), UMD and, of course, the ability to freely use Scrolls and Wands of up to Level 4 (which includes Stoneskin, Improved Invisibility, Dispel Magic).

Both will have Weapon Specialization and can use Full Plate.

At level 9, a Bard 4 Fighter 5 can then get Improved Critical (and still, by the way, have +8 BAB).

It is insane how objectively superior an MC Bard/Fighter is compared to a monoclass Bard or a monoclass Fighter and that has led to a prolific propagation of the multiclass. This should be remedied, IMO.

[Stranger]

I can't think off hand of any Martial/Bard multiclass that played more Bardic than Martial in their pursuits whenver multiclassed.

Excuse me?  Excuse. Me?

EXCUSE. ME. SIR?

[Kinslayer988]

I do not like the idea of adding even more hoops to playing a PC. EFU has always had cheap multiclasses and was fine when the restriction was just to ranger/monk, druid/monk, and barbarian/fighter. Over the years I have seen strong combinations mostly revolving around the monk and high BAB classes which led to locking down multiclass monk entirely. A few select cases of PCs ruined it for everyone else.

Adding more restrictions to classes only serves as a detriment to players jumping in to characters. The balance of the server in older chapters was that if you play such a power heavy class combination you would receive less powerful loot from a DM than you would if you were to play something less like a bard/wizard or bard/cleric. The fact is that fighter/bard, and fighter/rogue, are such strong for providing tumble/AC investment that it is worth the loss of AB. Always have been. The way that they were made less popular was the use of fighter perks, and bard perks to encourage them to break away.

This sounds like a problem with roleplay and expectation over the balancing of the class combination itself. It is up to DMs to enforce that, and I don't think restricting another class is a good idea. Have more faith in your fellow player and increase awareness of this feeling rather than cutting it off for everyone who doesn't want to app. There are many things I would rather see the team do than waste time trying baby proof and over balance a game nearing 15 years old.

EDIT: If you want to ruin/rebalance certain multiclasses, focus on direct changes such as opening monk up but giving them a BAB decrease for fighter. Obsessed about bard/rogue UMD being broken on fighter then provide a small penalty instead of locking it.

[Random_White_Guy]

The problem is though Kin is that at the end of the day it's up to the DMs to enforce it but I know DMs don't want to have to play RP police which I get, which is why I tossed out the less demanding restriction idea.  I believe Paladin and Monk don't need an application but just run an idea past a DM before you leap on it. At least have people thinking about their concept a bit before unfurling it. But if PCs make any suggestions to other PCs people will cover their ears and shriek "LA LA LA LA YOU CANT TELL ME HOW TO RP".

Roleplaying is all about trying to put in the effort. There's nothing wrong with building for a competent or capable warrior especially if your PC concept is one where you're going to find yourself in a hell of a lot of conflict against a majority of the server. Monsters, villains, etc I totally understand wanting the utmost power to survive the inevitable onslaught.

But there's just so much juice for so little RP expectation which seems like a serious disconnect.

Maybe tossing on fullplate disables the vaunted +7 bard second APR.

Maybe we introduce some high tier special magical instruments like Clerics have Relics which requires mandatory Bard levels.

I don't know, That's why it's a suggestion.

[Red Moon]

I find the perks a pretty neat way to incentivize people away from multi-classing.

When I first started playing, I was a bit disappointed to see that the bard perks weren't an option. They seemed really neat. I would be interested in playing a pure bard if they were to return actually.

[Grouch]

Now that rogue requires 5 levels to get evasion, Fighter Bard is the new way to go certainly if you want to be king tank. There are a lot less evasion-able evocations thrown around these days anyway.

A optimum fighter bard would be 6 fighter 3 bard at level 9 (10 would hypothetically be 4th bard level) Granting them 4 fighter feats and 4 or 5 general feats (Non human/human)

A pure fighter has laughable saving throws compared to a fighter bard just to begin with, the fighter bard with have at least 2 more will save, reflex save and up to +3 vs spells from spellcraft.

You will lose out on 12-16 hit points and 1 ab in exchange for +2 tumble ac, +3 fort +5 reflex +5 willsave, access to arcane wands up to the third circle (Dispel!) and scrolls you may find that you like (Keen.) and guess what, when you sing your bard song you don't have 1 missing ab anymore, and extra 2 damage what a deal, double weapon spec.

What fighter perk can compare to all of these things? Absolutely none. A fighter bard will outclass a pure fighter 9/10, but so will a ranger fighter (6/4), or a rogue fighter (6/4)

I have been mostly playing pure classes this chapter, but I am strongly against limiting multiclassing outside of OP/Silly ones like Paladin/Monk Druid/Monk Shifter/Monk (Strangely all monk) I don't even see a issue with Fighter Barbarian as it just has never been worth it to be a Fullplate Barbarian but I get the RP reason why the Wild Untamed warrior and Strict Disciplined Warrior can't fit in the same meat suit.

I personally believe that RP is not restricted to what you type into the chat box, RP is what your character is doing at any given time. When they sing, they are singing, when I am swinging my sword you can see me I don't have to type out that I am doing it, that is the advantage of a video game over pen and paper after all. TL:DR WYSIWYG.

[Random_White_Guy]

All fair points Grouch, and I know even if something today was done to the Bard multi there'd be something new found either soon or down the road.

Sometimes part of the fun of multiclassing is finding different, weird class combinations that some how work despite the odds to reach higher levels. Magister for instance had some legendary hilarious builds like his Half orc that specialized in throwing weapons shelgarn's. Or like the first PCs to roll out the crazy Monk based PRC builds. That kind of stuff can be great for EFU and if it's well characterized can be some seriously cool and dynamic characters.

But part of WYSIWYG is what you see, and what isn't often seen is Bard RP to make up for that.  It's no different than if a Cleric never spoke of their deity. It's why some of the really crazy Circle V relics are soft-blocked by DM loot relics.

It'd be different if people were using it to push the limits of the unique or interesting builds.

Maybe a Bard/Fighter with a non-traditional weapon or something else. But usually the extent of debate seen is "Do I use my keen scroll on a rapier if i'm fancy or a keen scroll on a scimitar if i'm a cut-throat?"

I guess if anything the main suggestion then since DMs have said no enforcement-  Take some bardic gusto and throw some creative spin on your bardic pursuit.

Not every bard has to perform in a stage show
Not every bard has to carry a lute and riff on it.
Not every bard has to blast out paragraphs for every time they use bardsong.

A Gladiator who shares tales from time to time of all the tricks he picked up putting on performances for the crowd.
A Mercenary who fell in love with a singer at the tavern he was hired in for his first contract, so now he carries and plays her old lute
A Bard who sucks at playing instruments so he took up a sword to now kidnap people to force them to listen to his performances.
A traveling Bard who knows the dangers of the road so now he travels the Commons beating up Bandit PCs to become famous vigilante style.
A Soldier who dressed as a woman to desert his rank and now spends half his time working as a Tailor at Webber's shop designing non-combat outfits for other PCs.
A Troubador who was arrested for petty theft and after imprisonment learned to beat people with clubs to protect himself and now seeks to roll as a thug.
A bard who's troupe was hired for long term shows for a Baron so when he's not working for House Nephezar he's playing piano in the Groat.
A bard who got his entire arm cut off by an evil baron for poor violin play so now he can no longer wield a shield and is waging a one handed war upon the peerage.
A bard who has a nudists streak and doesn't mind stripping off his armor from time to time to licit a reaction from his fellow mercenaries. Sometimes even doing the occasional entertainment check to ease the tension before a big battle.

Not every concept has to be the highest brow server shifting altering the fate of the universe.

But there's so much more to play with RP wise than "I like to get naked for Magic Weapon and Bull's Strength before this quest, and Let's roll 9s for that shield wand."

[Scrappa-yeti]

Plus one for the original post.

Perhaps I am old and nostalgic, but it does seem to me the DM loot in this chapter has been less determined by the quality of the players build and more on how much PvP they do.

In chat, the newer players don't seem to have the vibe that weak builds will get support and strong builds will get less, as used to be the case. Instead loot is based on conflict, and so strong builds in general tend to get stronger, because they win more (either PvP or in contest events) and come away with more stuff.

As someone who had contributed his share of disgusting cross class characters in my time on EfU- Barb/fighter, Monk/fighter etc, I know I never saw much DM aid when I was power-gaming.

I am happy for there to be a specific bard/fighter fix, we have plenty of these already, so one more couldn't hurt (perhaps bard song gets the same % fail chance as cross classed clerics get?) But I wonder if the general problem might be better addressed by a recalibration of DM loot rewards?

[SunrypeSlim]

Rather than perks, give pure bards access to henchmen. Level 1 Commoners that you can name, dress up, and essentially add to your retinue, band, or other event.

Bards are social, so how do you play a social character during low activity periods, or when everyone else is doing combat?

Tie it to level 7, like the feat Leadership, and then just add hirelings to certain areas through conversations. Some you can pay for, some take skill checks, and some are just there as blank canvasses in Ring 99.

You could then tie the voice command "/v h" to emit from the hireling you have currently selected through Control Companion player tool.

[VanillaPudding]

Gross. Multiclassing is a huge part of the fun for some people and also a part of the core D&D experience.

There are perks in place to help the pure classes out and they do quite fine as it is. Gaining utility at the expense of HP / AB or whatever else is just fine!