Pure Rogue Improvements

[Damien]

This has nothing to do with their perks.

I believe as it stands pure rogues are just crippled, near enough to the point before reaching level 8. I'd suggest, since aside from a cloak iirc there is no other rogue loot to be found from the loot tables commonly or rarely, adding more rogue ONLY loot to the loot tables.

As it stands you can currently make a better rogue making a ranger, who can use (spoilers) to give him sneak damage (sneak damage doesn't stack with items and rogue sneak) and some perks to give him disable/set traps. Not to mention their better natural saves, stealth and hp.

On top of this I would suggest either reverting bilby loot to it's old efua/efum form but making it all for pure rogues only to prevent lameness or adding a variety of pure rogue loot as well.

I'd take even sellable rogue only low level gear at this point too, maybe from lower or upper.

[PanamaLane]

I think Rogues are pretty balanced for their role, so to speak. Hitting 8 is important, but once you do, your perks will remain with you, which gives some very nice advantages.

One thing I will say is that the rogue loot that is out there is sometimes wonky. I understand a rogue buckler fits the theme, but pure rogues can't use shields (without a feat). Bibly gives you a hammer at times rogue only, can't use them. Sometimes there are rogue only medium armors which drop…you get it by this point I'm sure.

There could probably be a few more rogue items out there that pure rogues can actually use.

[Zango_Unchained]

I don't understand why Bilby loot was nerfed. Just make it what it used to be with //Pure rogue only.

That should fix the issues that are being seen with it.

[Vault Shrike]

Pure rogues are not underpowered. Not at all, in no way shape or form. Especially not with the level 8 rogue perks. :)

They do, however, require an extremely careful, prudent playstyle if they are to be effective. Good CON is also a must, for survivability. They may take some time to mature, but Zsigmond was a pure rogue for a very long time, having little-to-no survivability issues (Harper Scout, even, being arguably worse than rogue levels). The most dangerous things he encountered on a semi-regular basis turned out to be defense obelisks and Vilstrak Tunnel Hunters.

Some of the loot is wonky though, as Panama points out!

[Paha]

Not all classes are meant to be equal, I will repeat this to the end of the world. That's not how D&D works or how it's meant to work around here.

Rogue has it's place, as does mages, warriors, what not else.

[Knight Of Pentacles]

Rogues are fine as they are really.  They're there for utilities and doing things outside the realm of combat. Though they have their place in combat certainly.  Though it is true that rogue multiclasses can often excel at being both combative and supportive.  Bilbys could be a nice way of keeping this from happening.  Supporting more support role rogues with loot others wouldn't be able to get or use. As it stands however Bilby's isn't worth doing due to its increased difficulty and the lessening of its loot's power.  Not to mention some of the loot being unusable.

[Damien]

People have misunderstood what I was suggesting here.

I was stating the fact you can mimic all the utility a rogue has in other classes. This is due to the lack of PURE ROGUE ONLY loot, and rangers, though most wizards and sorcerers with ooze pet can do just as well with locks.

The utility exists for rogues, but it would be great to see additional tools to help out. Such as the rogue shop in lower, or bibly in upper, selling rogue tools and pure rogue only items with skill for rogues.

This isn't a matter of balance really, it is a matter of other classes being better at what defines (or meant to) a rogue pretty much.

[PanamaLane]

If this suggestion was to add a few more items that would give utility to pure rogues, I agree. As I mentioned a lot of the rogue items are wonky. As for shops and the like, I suggest you ask around IG.

[Vlaid]

A lot of a rogues potential comes from the RP and plots.

You can dislike this if you wish, but focusing into a certain niche such as a forger, a smuggler, a conman, a thief and so on will then be likely to give you "hidden/intangible bonuses" during NPC/DM interactions in your relevant niche and style.

There are a lot of intangible benefits such as those in the class. The ability to be recognized as a "rogue" by certain shady NPC's (both scripted and not), thieves cant, DMs being more willing to let you get away with sly things...I could go on. Even things like UMD, Tumble and Sneak Attacks all make rogues very playable.

If you believe a ranger with a certain set of loot and perks would be a more optimized and powerful choice, as with all things build related you are free to do so at you leisure.

That said, there probably is a lack of enough Pure Rogue ambient loot in the server with the nerfing of Bilby's. But I haven't played a rogue in a while so I can't comment directly on the quality of loot in Bilby's.

As a sidenote I have felt that I wish more of the throwable items that scream "rogue" should be rogue only (if not scripted, done so as a note on them that says //Do not use unless pure rogue). They can be very expensive to buy also.