On Morals and EFU

[I love cats]

Perhaps I am wrong but I am noticing a very new trend in this chapter mode/of EFU.  In most of the realms/previouse chapters. Animating the dead/summoning spirits/doing obviously dark magics has been the equivalant of Murder, Treason ETC on levels of bad/evil/punishments.  In this chapter it seems like motivated by OOC factors loot, gold and items are deemed more valuable.

Yet the funny thing is in this chapter. Maybe I am mistaken what I seem to notice is that in terms of morals most PCS seem more concerned with banditry/pvp/looting over that.  I mean things reached an interesting trend where a dude in the middle of a public duel summoned an intellect devourer on the bridge without anyone batting an eye/a paladin making a reaction. I mean I find it amusing that after the very public display of a girl being beheaded, and animated and dropped off a building there is not more cries of "Burn the witch! Necromancer!"  Meanwhile if the "Honor of the dispensary" is violated  or "Big Fooking Bill" takes a toll there is no short of angry mobs. Heck I even had an angry paladin leading a mob and razing hell over dessecrating a shrine....Not much over animation of the dead! Its just a silly concept for me on this new chapter.

Its just extremely silly to me the turn in morals that good and neutral PCS seem to have more hatred towards bandits and thieves than well those that do the dark arts. I think its a semi OOC factor of gold/possesions involved that has breeched into the IG world.  As much as I think thieves are detestable its weird the lack of action/ball rolling. I"m noticing similar PCS that gladly chase after bandits because its the "right thing to do." do not do the same to necromancers, infernalists ETC. Which I think is very bizzare for this new world.

[Kinslayer988]

I think the moral standard once held by good aligned players has shifted towards an OOC good vs an actual IC good. If you are a good aligned pc bent on being a good person, you should not associate yourself with necromancers, aberrants, demons, devils, etc. If you are a neutral person the same will most likely appeal but at a lesser scale.

Those who do collaborate and work with these creatures and their owners will earn evil points. Those who collaborate and work with these creatures will be free roam to the likes of paladins, clerics, and other do-gooders to fight and possibly kill.

The dark arts hold a tremendous risk to them. This is how it should be.

[Dillusionist]

Remember the fear of being immediately robbed is more visceral to people than more abstract immoralities.  If my possessions are being taken, and I'm starving, I don't care so much about the guy dumping toxic waste in the river. Most characters in EFU are thrust into a rather extraordinary situation where survival means bending your morals. This is one of the most positive aspects of the server. Its balanced by clerics, paladins, druids, and faction members receiving a good deal of mechanical power for sticking to their ideals.

It really falls on necromancers and demon summoners to be provocative - blood sacrifice, hideous experimentation, etc. - not for adventurers to muster hatred toward them for those things. The same is true for monster PCs. Go ahead and protect your werewolf friend and try to redeem him, but that werewolf will be retired if it does not go on a nightly rampage.

Generally, I don't think its good form to comment on how other people's characters react to a situation. All you can do is try to play your own character well, and hope it rubs off.

[DYBIL]

Aberrants were a commonplace threat in v4. This is a different setting with different lore and different "big bads". It's not unreasonable for most PCs to not even know what an intellect devourer or any other aberrant monster is aside from "That thing looks freaky and otherwordly" but not necessarily inspire the same reaction as seeing Undead. If anything standing there stunned and dumbfounded would be a very human reaction to seeing someone summon some freakish aberrant creature you've never seen before.

With regards to the point you're trying to make about a very specific instance of Necromancy, a lot of neutral PCs reasonably took a stance of "She deserved to die. But she didn't deserve to die like that. A good service was done, but with the most vile of methods." The balance was actually something I'd call perfectly executed in such a way that neutral PCs don't really have a reason to go on a manhunt and FD on sight for what happened. Instead they are all disgusted and wary - as they should be. Good PCs, and especially Paladins, I'd argue it depends on their own Oaths and beliefs. Unless they have something (such as an Oath) that explicitly requires them to hunt down and kill any and all necromancers on sight, then it's not unreasonable for them to take a similar approach to neutral NPCs regarding those events. They may just be a lot harsher in encounters with a necromancer than a neutral PC would be and immediately respond with violence where as a neutral PC might not.

If anything I would say it goes to show just how good this setting is, that PCs are way more concerned with other things than to be so bored as to go hunting down every single Necromancer just for existing. I'd argue that people just didn't have anything better to do in v4. A lot of good/neutral PCs want to get out of 99 and stay out of 99 therefore keeping a place they don't even want to be in, in the first place, "clean" isn't on their agenda.

I think the points you're trying to make would possibly be a lot more applicable if the Arbiter faction was already implemented and there were Arbiter PCs running around. In general, most PCs seem primarily concerned with things within their own sphere of influence (as they should be).

The only OOC thing when it comes to the points you're trying to make is that.. It's a lot easier for people to be excited about hunting down a very active and prominent PC than it is for them to chase after one that hardly logs on / makes themselves confrontable. No shots intended to be fired at anyone specifically with this statement, as play times and schedules are limited and differ. But that's just the way it is.

[Aethereal]

Yet the funny thing is in this chapter. Maybe I am mistaken what I seem to notice is that in terms of morals most PCS seem more concerned with banditry/pvp/looting over that.  I mean things reached an interesting trend where a dude in the middle of a public duel summoned an intellect devourer on the bridge without anyone batting an eye/a paladin making a reaction.

I don't disagree regarding the Dark Arts being a relevant cause for concern when it comes to morality. However I must address this specific example you present:

Errilam probably has very low LORE and SPELLCRAFT. Does he have a background in the storied understanding of the planes, the Underdark, and magical creatures in general? No? Then perhaps he should consult a proper mage for feedback and advice as to the appearance of a weird creature with a brain for a head and four legs. Sure he can think: oh that's weird, a strange experiment?  Some kind of illusion? A magical beast? A demon? If you immediately identify it as an intellect devourer as a non LORE/SPELLCRAFT character, perhaps that is the actual case of OOC reaction happening here. Also note, it may not actually be an intellect devourer IC, there are illusions of aberrations and other things out there (no spoilers).

Leave wizardy to the wizards. Or consult Ordo Arcanum who have a very public stance against the Dark Arts.

[Anonymous Lemur]

I've had people wanting to murder my character for animation and I have a 2000 gold bounty on her head. People do want to "burn the witch" the problem is said "Witch" is rarely without her bodyguard and together they are quite formidable. Making it unappealing to attack them openly in spite of the sentiments.

Also the fact that she tends to be otherwise quite friendly when approached. Thanks in part to having high charisma.  When she does perform necromancy in front of people, unless it's a situation where hostiles are rampaging about and she's haphazardly trying to piece them together it is portrayed as suitably horrifying and not in the slightest bit pleasant.

In spite of the character lacking much in the way of aggression I've found myself in a situation where I can't go anywhere or quest with people I don't know for fear one of them might strike the character down. I think people are reacting very appropriately to necromancy in that regard. It's just that people become less transfixed on killing someone after a few people make the attempt and find themselves on the floor. Which is also IC. It's been about a week or so since she's even been able to animate a skeleton due to the eyes on her and her public "recanting."

Edit:

Also with regard to paladins. A lot of them value redemption. If a necromancy is confronted with threats of violence and vows never to again do necromancy. They may give them a single chance. This may or may not have happened!

[Pandip]

I think everyone above has done a really good job of addressing your issues from the perspective of the server and setting as a whole, but it looks like I am the one being called out in this post's specific examples, so I feel the need to briefly defend myself.

Lawful Good does not mean gullible and stupid. You are playing an unabashedly evil character who goes out of his way to berate, taunt, and steal from others whenever he wins PvP. Goodly characters, particularly paladins, are not in any way obligated to help Errilam whenever he has a grievance with another character because he is perceivably just as bad as those who have wronged him. You invite the enemies you create through your actions, as has been evidenced by Gallad, Billy, and Errilam all being treated similarly.

As for the necromancer in question, the problem is largely just a matter of time zones. It's unreasonable to try and doggedly pursue the redemption or vanquishing of a necromancer when there is no way to interact with them. However, the suggestion that House Nephezar hasn't suffered for the incident with Naomi is a bit silly. The reputation of the house has diminished greatly considering they're now the "necromancy house," and the perpetrator has a large bounty on her head.

Perhaps if you were paying more attention you would know that people have tried and failed to make good on that bounty. Or that there have been several instances of the characters you are criticizing trying to take decisive action against infernalists, necromancers, etc.

And, yes, imagine that -- a paladin is going to want to punish the man that unapologetically desecrated their sacred shrine instead of the pleasant girl who swore never to animate again.

[I love cats]

I think everyone above has done a really good job of addressing your issues from the perspective of the server and setting as a whole, but it looks like I am the one being called out in this post's specific examples, so I feel the need to briefly defend myself.

Lawful Good does not mean gullible and stupid. You are playing an unabashedly evil character who goes out of his way to berate, taunt, and steal from others whenever he wins PvP. Goodly characters, particularly paladins, are not in any way obligated to help Errilam whenever he has a grievance with another character because he is perceivably just as bad as those who have wronged him. You invite the enemies you create through your actions, as has been evidenced by Gallad, Billy, and Errilam all being treated similarly.

As for the necromancer in question, the problem is largely just a matter of time zones. It's unreasonable to try and doggedly pursue the redemption or vanquishing of a necromancer when there is no way to interact with them. However, the suggestion that House Nephezar hasn't suffered for the incident with Naomi is a bit silly. The reputation of the house has diminished greatly considering they're now the "necromancy house," and the perpetrator has a large bounty on her head.

Perhaps if you were paying more attention you would know that people have tried and failed to make good on that bounty. Or that there have been several instances of the characters you are criticizing trying to take decisive action against infernalists, necromancers, etc.

And, yes, imagine that -- a paladin is going to want to punish the man that unapologetically desecrated their sacred shrine instead of the pleasant girl who swore never to animate again.

I never said lawful good meant gullible or stupid. I don't mind making enemies or conflict.  Yeah looting, taunting and dessecrating a shrine and threateaning to turn it into a brothel are all levels of bad.  They are all levels of scum. Big Fooking Bill deserved to die. I am only pointing out that in this/forgotten realms universe socially speaking Animation of the dead is on par with murder, rape, Treason etc in terms of socially unaceeptable things. A greater deal than a retainer that takes objects his lord requires of him or some scum who robs people. A mage or priest that deliberetly animates someone after killing them is an extremely evil act and is akin to a  pedofile or rapist saying they won't do it again. Its one of those grave crimes that warrants an extremely grave sentence even to "Attone." Its one of those things "I promise to never do again." should definetly be met with extreme skepticism.


I am saying that I have noticed in the broader playerbase, Tickers, peerage/whoever there is definetly a greater scorn/concern for looters than well necromancers. Heck maybe I am missing something maybe there are people plotting/trying to claim the bounty/going out with pitchforks! There was even some random sorc that casually suggested summoning demons. I simply wished to share some thoughts after I noticed I dueled someone that summoned an abberant and no one seemed to care or comment on it. It gave me the impression there is an extremely higher level of tolerance for the dark arts than looting.


I simply wished to note some observations I made and create some dialogue I am really not interested in naming specific PCS. I could entirerly be wrong! I"m simply seeing if its just me that sees there is a shift in morals that  its why I created a discussion.  I also think its understndable certain neutral PCs would think a necromancer that kills some scum isn't their concern over some guy who is prowling the streets robbing people.

[Emerald, Ruby and Steel]

I want to comment on the IC 'morality' of thieving and banditing (property crimes) specifically --

Without commenting on how it should be weighed on balance with other more metaphysical crimes like necromancy and consorting with fiends, I like that this chapter takes issues of property more seriously. It makes the server feel more realistic and mature -- in earlier chapters there was sometimes too much of a preponderance of romanticising thieves and brigands for my tastes. People loathing property crime also is perfectly in line with the server hub of this chapter, Ring 99 and Ticker Square more specifically, being all about COMMERCE and trade! Especially given that the DMs and builders have gone out of their way to make trading, merchanting and commerce much more dynamic, viable and dominant in this chapter, from a technical and design point of view.

So yes, if you're playing a thief, robber or bandit or whatever, your PC probably will be despised.

This has nothing to do with OOC morality. IRL, I don't believe in private property but that doesn't mean the chapter shouldn't.

[Emerald, Ruby and Steel]

If anything I would say it goes to show just how good this setting is, that PCs are way more concerned with other things than to be so bored as to go hunting down every single Necromancer just for existing. I'd argue that people just didn't have anything better to do in v4. A lot of good/neutral PCs want to get out of 99 and stay out of 99 therefore keeping a place they don't even want to be in, in the first place, "clean" isn't on their agenda.

Also, I agree with this.

[Arslefjun]

I'd love to see the day when DrD took half as much time to evaluate his own IC/OOC decisions as he does barking at others.

Its tiresome to read self-pity threads just because things don't go your way in the matters of diplomacy.
Without giving too much spoilers it could have to do with your portrayal of a slimy piece of shit, ICly.

Thanks.

[CB]

This seems to be an issue that should be addressed in character and not out of character.  And as was said above, if you're a lot more hated than a somewhat open necromancer, it could be a good idea to ask yourself why that is?

[Dillusionist]

This really is not a productive discussion.

Play your characters based on their motivations, backstories, and experiences. Try to make the game fun for other people, and trust that your fellow players are doing the same. That's really all you can do. If you are deeply concerned about the behavior of a monster PC feel free to bring it up with the DM team.