They do a crazy amount of damage, pretty much destroy any low hp classes and require no touch attacks and cannot be saved against. I died to 3 on 90hp cleric with resist elementals up for example.
Either add half damage from saving against it, or touch attack please.
I agree these should either have touch or a reflex save for half.
These are currently basically ranged combust for more damage on top of having a fort save or stun/slow/blind.
I'd agree. With a touch attack and no SR, things like Displacement and DEX AC worked against them, but SR did not. Making them effective as boss-killers and to hurt L9 Clerics with Spell Resistance up. It was good against rare defences and weaker against common defences, making it situational. It was a good spell for Wizards to use hurt things that were stronger than them. The issue was you could basically eliminate the weakness of needing a touch attack by throwing a True Strike out first. So it was bad against buffed targets but good in ganks and boss fights.
Now it's weak against rare defences, but tears right through all common ones. Because they have no save for half, they are a foolproof weapon that requires no feat investment. Making it a great spell for all Wizards to use to oneshot PCs that are lower level than them. Which is especially annoying if you are a Monk or Rogue getting hit by one of these. No Reflex, no evasion, no DEX AC. It's another case where the only defence is "16 Con Dwarven Barbarian, for Hitpoints".
They are lvl 4 spells, and casters have few lvl 4 spells. They should be powerfull. Have you tried drinking a protection from elements potion?
No, because I don't have one in this example fight. PfEle potions are expensive and you don't keep them up all day just in case. The OP had 90HP and L2 elemental protection up.
L4 Spells are meant to be powerful, yes. That is why having a counter to the powerful thing is important. Otherwise games turn into "attacker always wins".
As an evocator, your main weakness is "Someone with evasion is going to mess me up". You want your powerful abilities to have risk involved, and decision making on who is worth targeting. This way, anti-spell abilities are also powerful.
If you can inflict 8d6 damage, no save, it doesn't matter who you're shooting that at, they get hurt and it's entirely down to your roll. If it has a Reflex save for half, then Saves, Spellcraft and Evasion come into play, With a touch attack, you have to worry about DEX AC and concealment, and you might straight up miss vs anyone.
Also saves force you to have high INT/CHA and/or SF to be effective. Currently Orbs are amazing off looted scrolls, as it doesn't matter that scrolls have low DC.
Some of you seem to be under the impression that wizards are supposed to be poor duelists. This is false.
Wizards, when given time to prepare for your strategy specifically and buff before combat (like in a duel) should absolutely mop the floor with you. That is the tradeoff for having the worst hp and AC and needing to spend thousands of gold hunting down scrolls.
Orb spells are a wizard's "swing for the fences" because you're spending a 4th circle spell to do 3rd circle damage reliably. If someone can survive the initial burst, then they win the duel.
Dispensary is where melee characters shine, as a series of many small fights stretching over 10+ minutes with people joining late from stealth is exactly where wizards are weakest.
They picked the exact right spell to use on your fully buffed potentially in platemail cleric, and won. There are many spells they could've chosen that would've let you win easily.
Speaking from a PvE perspective, the touch attack was really the only defence rogues had against these spells, as their fort saves are generally so trash they can't make the save vs secondary effect and there is no evasion opportunity to mitigate the damage. Encountering this spell being spammed on a certain scripted quest with a rogue just felt like a death sentence.
I do think returning the touch attack requirement would make it a reasonably well balanced spell.
As the person who basically started this by winning a few PvPs with orb spam, I'll drop my 2c...
Yes, orbs are very strong now. But.
I do wonder how much it's "orbs are too strong" and how much it's just a new part of the PvP meta that people still haven't adapted to. The veterans have been PvP'ing for 10 years and barely ever had to deal with orbs, and their usual PvP strategies need adapting.
The damage on orbs is not out of line with similar options. It does the same damage as missile storm (But is countered by a greater insulation pot instead of a shield pot). It does roughly the same damage as Empowered Combust, which has been meta for as long as I've played. Orb > Orb > Orb does the same damage as True Strike > Empowered Scorching Ray > Empowered Scorching Ray.
I'd also advise against changing too much because of Alexandra. She's a mimic, and mimic are weird and not representative of the average caster. Orb change has been in the game for months now. Nobody thought it was OP until like 3 days ago. Give people time to adapt to the new trick. I don't think shaking up the PvP meta a bit is a bad thing.
If it does need to be changed back though, I'd hope they are made a little stronger then their old version. I don't think I've seen a single orb being cast in my over 1 year of playing with the old orbs, they felt a little -too- niche.
No one cares about your rando pc Electrohydra.
I'm referring too it now because, as mentioned, my PC with 90hp and resist elementals died to it, and I've seen a full BAB level 10 die to it on a certain quest too. The duel just reminded me to post something. I don't see anything regarding adaption required here. Except maybe have greater elemental protection up always and over 110hp.
You're doing on average 30 damage, which means 60dmg with haste. Anyone who takes 60 damage in a single round will be forced to heal, thereby taking another 60 dmg the next round. Which for those bad at maths probably means you won the pvp, and is the reason people are using/abusing it now, because it used to require a touch attack.
The comment that you are somehow sacrificing your level 4 slot is a non starter, too. Aside from II and icestorm, most other spells are garbage so it's a massive advantage it exists.
To give a further example, it also does more single target damage than firebrand, a level 5 spell, which has a reflex save.
Quote from: Damien on July 01, 2020, 03:04:16 PM
No one cares about your rando pc Electrohydra.
I'm referring too it now because, as mentioned, my PC with 90hp and resist elementals died to it, and I've seen a full BAB level 10 die to it on a certain quest too. The duel just reminded me to post something. I don't see anything regarding adaption required here. Except maybe have greater elemental protection up always and over 110hp.
You're doing on average 30 damage, which means 60dmg with haste. Anyone who takes 60 damage in a single round will be forced to heal, thereby taking another 60 dmg the next round. Which for those bad at maths probably means you won the pvp, and is the reason people are using/abusing it now, because it used to require a touch attack.
The comment that you are somehow sacrificing your level 4 slot is a non starter, too. Aside from II and icestorm, most other spells are garbage so it's a massive advantage it exists.
To give a further example, it also does more single target damage than firebrand, a level 5 spell, which has a reflex save.
Your first line is an exceptionally disrespectful way to refer to another player.
By my math, if you have protection from elements up that'll reduce the first round damage to 20. That puts your cleric at 70 hp on average. You can heal, use a protection from elements, silence, etc, but let's say you choose to use another protection from elements.
They have expended all their 4th level spells (assuming level 9 wizard) in two rounds and you have 50 hp left having spent only 2 level 3 slots to their 4 level 4 slots. Assuming you're also hasted, you could easily heal with spells and ward against elements and be at full hp with more spell slots left.
If you're fighting a wizard in a duel you should not be using resist elements or endure elements as a cleric. You have access to stronger options.
Protection from elements is not an absurd thing to stock up on for fighters either. It can be brewed and people buy displacement and haste all the time.
There's a lot of salt here.
Counter to Orb spells: Potions of PfEle. It's a hard counter. You should be able to do some damage by the time your PfEle is broken through.
Meh..anyone who is self absorbed enough to think a post is about them, and then suggest server mechanics should anchor around them should have their bubble burst immediately.
And I said on average. Characters do not on average have resist elemental up, except pvp cautious clerics and rangers. And for reference I was ganked and hit by 80dmg in the first round, so a bit unlucky, but my level 9 buffed cleric shouldn't be a benchmark. People aren't all level 9 walking around buffed.
Regarding the rest of your post, I can also see your using the "well you could do this" logic of your argument, which isn't constructive at all. Use averages and I've already mentioned it easily dealt with characters which were above average in level and hp and were buffed (see cleric level 9, ranger/harper scout level 10...). Though yes, well done, we could all play a barb and walk around with greater elemental protection up, but if anything by proof of need you are validating the rationale for nerfing, so thanks I guess.
And I've no salt for this particular death anyway, if that refers to me.
These used to check for SR or have a touch attack, right? What happened?
The whole point of Orbs is that they give you a damage option which ISN'T completely shot down by a reflex save and evasion.
PfE exists in potion form and anyone can get it. It's a hard counter to Orbs.
Getting back to the original suggestion:-
I would just highlight that there are secondary effects associated with these spells. Including one spell that stunlocks on a failed fort save. I still believe without the touch attack that these orb spells are unfair on lower hp, lower fort classes (e.g. rogues, bards) who have a higher than average touch AC.
It's one thing to shrug your shoulders after a death and say 'well it's just unfortunate I didn't make that 50/50 touch attack roll' rather than having to concede 'well I died because I didn't roll a near impossible 18 or better on that fort save'.
I am saying all this in a PvE perspective because certainly in a PvP one any wizard or sorcerer worth their salt will just cast true strike first, so they aren't going to lose out on their rogue deleting spell with this modest change in my opinion.
Orbs do all check for spell resistance. I will have to test if and why it would not work, that's more in nwn under the hood or possible issue with hooking through wrapper.
Touch attack is something I will discuss and look at over weekend with the team.
Likewise with secondary effects, can someone actually confirm the stun works? Because in nwn mechanics, engine level functionality, mind spell immunity should block the stun. I rather someone confirms and says that it is confirmed, so I know if we are working with assumptions and guesses, or actual facts.
I can only read what you guys write so keep things tight, factual and easy to read.
Quote from: Damien on July 01, 2020, 03:59:19 PMAnd I said on average. Characters do not on average have resist elemental up, except pvp cautious clerics and rangers.
Why don't they? It's not hard, in my experience, to find a brewer.
Quote from: Damien on July 01, 2020, 03:59:19 PMAnd I've no salt for this particular death anyway, if that refers to me.
It refers to the thread in general. /shrug
The eternal dilemma is Casters have always dominated in PvP because it's all about Burst Damage. If you can do more damage than foe can heal you win, anything else is just window dressing.
The best I can tell is this was probably adjusted for MAX HP which is a huge boost against wizards. If it's going to have damage AND save component, maybe it just needs some damage adjustment?
The Wiki says "The caster targets a single creature with an acid orb. The orb deals 1d6/lvl dmg (max 15d6), and blinding the target for 1 round on a failed save.
Personally I feel Wizards/Sorcs have way too much New Spell Favoritism with new spells making it a hat on a hat as its already considered an S tier option for PvP and PVE in vanilla NWN, then new spells atop it.
Maybe the Orb spells moved away from Arcanists and to Thematic Clerical Domains (Fire Orb forFire Domain, Water, Earth, etc) and the more maligned Elemental involved Changelings picking between all elements to draw upon at their king hating leisure?
Inspiring PCs to try more Evoker Priests and Evoker Changelings are cooler ideas to me than "Evoker Wizards get 9 more ways to crush you in burst damage".
The team is discussing the spells at the moment. Although, similar to Scorching Ray, I am inclined to say that a wizard burning a majority of their IVth level slots (which are actually a fairly high demand slot) to subdue a single person when a majority of combats are not one on one, is fine.
Paha: The changelog says this was changed on April the 26th to not check SR. If it still does check SR, the docs need updating.
Electrohydra: I suspect the reason nobody complained is nobody's seen them used that dramatically. I've seen plenty of Orbs fired since the change, just not in duels. Yes Scorching Ray is extremely powerful, it got its own thread because of that.
I think RwG has the best idea. Make it a touch attack again and put it on the Druid/Cleric elemental domain lists. That's a nice tradeoff as they get secondary BAB, but it's rare to have an excuse for an elemental domain and one with True Strike. And Druids have relatively few spell slots.
I think the issue with Orb spells is they are situationally amazing, but that's not really a drawback to a Wizard. They're the class of being situational. I wouldn't use a barrage of three, generally, I'd have a single L4 slot with an Orb in as a finisher. Especially Electric Orb. I've seen a few wizards with a couple prepped as their self-defence spell, because worst case, it's enough damage and stun to force someone to heal while you run away.
Orb is what Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm wants to be when it grows up. Because it's useful for exploding a single person, but it can do that even if they have allies or a couple of summons out. And like ILMS, it works perfectly well with no SF.
Seems that the changelog said it was changed to "NOT Ignore spellresist check" and also, I've multiple times tried to make sure I also got it right-
Orb spell is single orb of damage, not like magic missile aka ball lightning, so it has a big difference to that as well. When it comes to adding them to clerics, perhaps. I am not against it, but frankly got too much on my plate to think or design any balance or other changes at this point. It may be up to discussion at some point, sooner or later.
If orb spells are designed to deal with more agile PCs, who would make a reflex save, but also have much less HP, like rogues or bards, maybe just tone down the damage?
currently it's 1d6, so maybe 1d5? 1d4+1?
Re-visiting this after an encounter with an orb spam. If they are meant to deal with high reflex classes, why not make a save, but a fort save for half damage? This way you can at least stand a chance when you get hit with several of them in a PvE environment? Even if a PvP environment, it may be too strong, being a decent range, stun AND no way to avoid the full damage. So adding some kind of limit ot it seems necessary, and a fort save for half damage may be the answer.
We've talked about this in detail with the team and in the end came to conclusion that we won't change the orb spells. However if I recall, the electrical orb or other, should not stun anymore anyway. It dazes, if I recall of the chage I made at some point. The texts are not updated because it needs tlk update and often is forgotten from hak updates.