How early do you recommend someone begin taking political actions?

[Zerminar12]

For some context, I've played EFU for 5 or 6 years and have never been in a "high-conflict" faction. I've been in a few ringrunning groups in Chapter 5. In Chapter 4 I was a member of the Scribes, joined a few petty gangs that dissolved almost immediately, and one time I was the only guy in one of the cults during the Cult War. I had just started playing so that went nowhere because I couldn't figure out how to leave the faction HQ. To summarize: I don't do much PvP or even much political RP. I've mostly been involved in campfire or other casual RP scenarios.

I've recently decided to try my hand at the faction game by starting my own religious faction. You may have seen one of the two forum posts I made about the concept in question. I have a hundred different questions about creating and managing a faction but I figure I shouldn't bother you all with them. The answers to my questions will likely be found by digging deep into ye old archived posts of the forums. However, there is one pressing question that I feel is somewhat subjective and I'd like to hear the opinions of the people currently involved in EFU.

When should I really start pushing my plots, schemes, and plans? When and how should I begin? Getting started has been the most intimidating part for me because the ideology I'm pushing might give a lot of characters a motivation to kill me. I'm ok with the idea of PvP and permadeath. However, I'd like to have a fair chance. Put up a good fight. However, I'm wondering how long I should grind for gold, levels, and equipment before finally making noise. Should I have just started pushing my thing when I got to level 5? Earlier than that? Or should I wait until I'm level 7 with a decent supply of potions. I don't know. So I'd genuinely be grateful for advice on when and how I should get my idea off the ground.

[Cat]

I feel there's really no set point where it would be best to do it. Likely the earlier the better to get yourself out there and known, because not only will you get other players to notice you, you may very well get the notice of dms who may be willing to help if they have the interest. I imagine too that doing it earlier when you're more of an underdog can get the dms to perhaps desire more so to help you, if that makes sense.

You're more likely to struggle the earlier you try to do things, and it may end up being that if you push too hard you might find you and your allies dead, but if that's a risk you're willing to take then more power to you.

Good luck!

[Slithy Tove]

It depends on your PC's mentality. "Just like in real life", when you do politics or push for a certain agenda, and you enter into a state of implicit or explicit conflict with the goals and interests of others, you will draw hostile attention. Any normal/sane PC in CoR, especially from Ring 99, would be aware of this and would factor it into their considerations. In other words: if your PC is strategic and prudent, they might make sure to have allies or other resources at hand before making their move. A more rash, unwise or zealous PC might go out there and start pushing their objectives without fear or favor. It would be too easy to just say "start conflicting as early as possible, that is what makes the server fun" but I feel like you are asking for a more considered answer and that is definitely mine: do whatever is IC and try to put yourself into the mind of your PC and whatever past experiences or considerations inform their thinking and emotions.

[Vlaid]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "political actions". But it depends a lot on the PC.

My general rule is to let things build naturally from low to high as my PC progresses and as I get higher level/longer lived try to be a bigger presence, doing bigger things until the inevitable end. But that approach isn't for everyone.

I would definitely not suggest just sitting on your ideas and plans until level 8+ and then flipping a switch, that is a pretty weird almost OOC strategy. Dropping hints, slowly work up to what you want to do is great if you're afraid of getting smooshed at low level before you get to do what you want though.

[Loops]

Go all out immediately and learn along side your PC what works for the character. Even getting beaten up is just an opportunity to talk to people and display your goals. Be okay with being a loser for awhile, as your character 'levels up' in a political sense and starts to get those wins in.

[Electrohydra]

As people have said, it somewhat depends on what plot you are trying to push and your character, but slowly building up your conflict level will always be more interesting then someone who just friendlymans until level 9 and then suddenly starts fighting with everyone.

To give a random example, let's say your PC's goal is to make alcohol illegal.

Pretty much as soon as your character is made and you know this is your goal, you can make general sendings about how drinking is sinful, about the problems it causes, etc.

Then when you start to get a little more settled in (Usually around level 7-8 depending on how fast you progress, your character, etc), you can start calling out other PCs specifically for drunkness, calling them sinners, perhaps trying to convince other factions to support your side.

When you feel like you are strong enough to hold your own (Either from your own strength or from your number of allies) you can start taking the law into your own hand, maybe fighting people and taking their drinks, trying to destroy/close down taverns, convince/bribe/intimidate guards and houses into supporting your prohibition.


You can go faster then that of course, and sometimes it's fun to just go ahead and take on the whole world at level 6. But slowly ramping up is a nice way to have conflict that feels organic without necessarily getting constantly crushed.

[SamB123]

As early as is natural. I've taken political actions at level 5, three days into the character's life, before.

[Zerminar12]

I really appreciate all of the responses here. I love seeing the different perspectives of my fellow players and it's given me a lot to consider.

It depends on your PC's mentality. "Just like in real life", when you do politics or push for a certain agenda, and you enter into a state of implicit or explicit conflict with the goals and interests of others, you will draw hostile attention. Any normal/sane PC in CoR, especially from Ring 99, would be aware of this and would factor it into their considerations. In other words: if your PC is strategic and prudent, they might make sure to have allies or other resources at hand before making their move. A more rash, unwise or zealous PC might go out there and start pushing their objectives without fear or favor. It would be too easy to just say "start conflicting as early as possible, that is what makes the server fun" but I feel like you are asking for a more considered answer and that is definitely mine: do whatever is IC and try to put yourself into the mind of your PC and whatever past experiences or considerations inform their thinking and emotions.

I appreciate the nuanced answer. I don't care about "winning" so much as demonstrating competence. I want my words to be backed by something such that people will consider them. Thus, I was inclined to start accruing resources prior to declaring a Holy War or something. I was worried that people would be upset if I wasn't raising hell within a week of making a character. I'll definitely try and use my character's viewpoint to determine when to begin getting vocal and striking at enemies.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "political actions". But it depends a lot on the PC.

My general rule is to let things build naturally from low to high as my PC progresses and as I get higher level/longer lived try to be a bigger presence, doing bigger things until the inevitable end. But that approach isn't for everyone.

I would definitely not suggest just sitting on your ideas and plans until level 8+ and then flipping a switch, that is a pretty weird almost OOC strategy. Dropping hints, slowly work up to what you want to do is great if you're afraid of getting smooshed at low level before you get to do what you want though.

Gotcha. I definitely don't want to come across as metagaming or sitting on my hands just to jump out of the political bushes with a level 10 monster. I'm just worried that since my goals are very anti-Count and anti-Peer, I'll be assassinated by an invisible Orzan barbarian If I start being vocal at level 6. That might just be paranoia talking though! I'm curious  what you specifically mean by dropping hints. I've been fairly vocal about my opinions in-person but I've yet to start preaching over the Sendings. Which I'm worried is what I should be doing. Regardless, I appreciate your take. I should definitely start "building up".

Go all out immediately and learn along side your PC what works for the character. Even getting beaten up is just an opportunity to talk to people and display your goals. Be okay with being a loser for awhile, as your character 'levels up' in a political sense and starts to get those wins in.

I'm just worried that losing will result in FD due to the anti-authority nature of my message. Also I think that making anti-establishment Sendings are explicitly banned according to a rule I read somewhere but that may be outdated. At the end of the day, I think I'm probably excessively paranoid from a lot of friends getting FD'd for even less serious reasons. But hey, maybe I should just go hogwild and see where the crazy train takes me? Regardless of what I do, I appreciate the different take on it, Loops.

As people have said, it somewhat depends on what plot you are trying to push and your character, but slowly building up your conflict level will always be more interesting then someone who just friendlymans until level 9 and then suddenly starts fighting with everyone.

To give a random example, let's say your PC's goal is to make alcohol illegal.

Pretty much as soon as your character is made and you know this is your goal, you can make general sendings about how drinking is sinful, about the problems it causes, etc.

Then when you start to get a little more settled in (Usually around level 7-8 depending on how fast you progress, your character, etc), you can start calling out other PCs specifically for drunkness, calling them sinners, perhaps trying to convince other factions to support your side.

When you feel like you are strong enough to hold your own (Either from your own strength or from your number of allies) you can start taking the law into your own hand, maybe fighting people and taking their drinks, trying to destroy/close down taverns, convince/bribe/intimidate guards and houses into supporting your prohibition.


You can go faster then that of course, and sometimes it's fun to just go ahead and take on the whole world at level 6. But slowly ramping up is a nice way to have conflict that feels organic without necessarily getting constantly crushed.

Gotcha. So I should definitely start making some sendings and other verbal noise early on. Still afraid since my current character has a pro-King angle (recently heard a lot of King supporters got enslaved) but you raise a good point. It'd be weird if I just coasted for months without saying anything. I have been avoiding "friendlymanning" with known Count followers for what that's worth. It's cost me a few quest trains where I'm the stubborn guy refusing to play along. Still, I should definitely start mobilizing a bit more. Thanks a lot for the very detailed example! That helps me plan my next moves a lot.

As early as is natural. I've taken political actions at level 5, three days into the character's life, before.

I can see where you're coming from. Perhaps I'm being too hesitant and should just try and get into my character's headspace.

Overall, thanks for the advice and perspectives. I'll take them into consideration over the next few months of play. Hope to see you folks in-game.

[TsunamiWombat]

It can be hard - and scary - to go against the grain and play an outspoken anti-establishment PC, out the door. But I think you'll also find that it's rewarding, and DM's will take note. I also hope and believe most of the people you'll come up against will argue with you at least once first, THEN beat you up when you persist, THEN move to kill you.

I would honestly recommend doing it from out the gate. You don't have to be - and cannot be - this end all be all revolutionary hero out the gate. Start out being a rabble rouser, a problem child. Be an 'annoyance'. Speak out publically but skirt what would get you serious punishment. Gather allies and sow seeds of deception among your enemies.

So my advice is 'immediately'. Right out of the gate. Hit the server, crush lowbies till 5, hit the sending and go IN MY DAY, WE KNELT TO THE KING, NOT SOME JUMPED UP FOXY GRANDPA WHO BY THE WAY EMPLOYS A GUILD OF *THEIVES* AND *KILLERS*

[Zerminar12]

It can be hard - and scary - to go against the grain and play an outspoken anti-establishment PC, out the door. But I think you'll also find that it's rewarding, and DM's will take note. I also hope and believe most of the people you'll come up against will argue with you at least once first, THEN beat you up when you persist, THEN move to kill you.

I would honestly recommend doing it from out the gate. You don't have to be - and cannot be - this end all be all revolutionary hero out the gate. Start out being a rabble rouser, a problem child. Be an 'annoyance'. Speak out publically but skirt what would get you serious punishment. Gather allies and sow seeds of deception among your enemies.

So my advice is 'immediately'. Right out of the gate. Hit the server, crush lowbies till 5, hit the sending and go IN MY DAY, WE KNELT TO THE KING, NOT SOME JUMPED UP FOXY GRANDPA WHO BY THE WAY EMPLOYS A GUILD OF *THEIVES* AND *KILLERS*

Thanks for the response, Wombat. I really appreciate your assurance that I won't be instantly merced. Gives me some confidence to start raising hell (non-violently for now). I'll definitely start being more vocal although according to the Server Rules I read, "anti-establishment Sendings" are prohibited. Although that may be outdated. Regardless, I'll definitely start to try and make waves. Hope to see you in-game sometime!

[TsunamiWombat]

The doorkeepers are kind of independent. They don't answer to anyone as far as anyone else knows, people just kinda ignore them. I'd say don't make them from the keeper in the ward though

[Zerminar12]

The doorkeepers are kind of independent. They don't answer to anyone as far as anyone else knows, people just kinda ignore them. I'd say don't make them from the keeper in the ward though

Makes sense. I've been avoiding entering the Ward as much as possible. And if I die to monsters, I try and invis through it when coming from Ring 100. So far I've only used the Commons Keeper, although I wish I knew of one closer to the Ponds or at least further from the Ward.

[Kiaring]

I think this was covered before, but here's my take, to add to the discussion:

"Political action" is broadly defined. Since DnD and EfU work on the character-level system, I'd say what counts as 'political action' for a level 5 newbie character is markedly different from 'political action' for a level 10 long-established character. A level 5 character might get drunk and mouth off. They might whisper in fear, only to silence at the chastisement or advice of other, more established characters. It's ok to be afraid, and it's ok to back down at those lower levels. You took a risk, commensurate with your character's abilities. If no one tells you to back down, or to stop, or opposes you - run with it. Run with it until you meet that wall.

In the same vein, the responses should vary, both as the levels of your opponents vary, and your own. I currently play a PC that, as an 'authority' on the Count's side of things, would likely take immediate issue with even a level 5 newcomer badmouthing the Count or singing the King's praises. But I think it's the responsibility of established characters to act along the lines of proportionality. If a long-established, level 9 character reveals themselves to have been anti-Count all along, and I find out they're actively plotting the Count's demise, and have already organized a network of supporters and collaborators, you better believe my response (which I consider proportional to the example I've given here) will be all-out conflict, with the possibility - even the likelihood - of FD outcome if I or my allies win engagements. However, replying in the same fashion (even if I, OOC, know full well that if 'allowed to flourish' a level 5 character might reach that same degree of prominence and become just as dangerous an opponent as the established level 9 I used as an example) is a bad look. Now, I understand that saying, "Trust your fellow players to play your characters' opponents tastefully" isn't always the most reassuring, but in my experience, most if not all long-term players on EfU are trying to do the right thing. Just as emotions run high for me when PvP conflict arises, tempers flare behind the other player's screen too. For me, the key is to understand that your adversaries and bitter enemies of today can become your key allies and collaborators tomorrow (some times on different PCs, some times even on the SAME PC - that's just EfU). So, I try to look past the losing outcomes for myself, to see EfU as this community, with all its flaws, where the point is to have fun.

Now, that sentiment is easier said than done, surely. But, to strive for it, I think, is the best way to approach and enjoy this game. Otherwise (in my experience) victory comes with a bitter taste, and defeat is always a cause for rage-quitting. And once you shut down the game, you're the one enraged. Life goes on in the server, for better or worse.



As a final thought: The server seems to me, currently, to be very fertile to 'anti-establishment' characters. While the main hub of the Ward is definitely a place to avoid if you're going to be speaking out against the most prominent current NPC, there seems to be lots of life in other areas, too.

In my view (I'm not a DM, disclaimer!) it's always fine for an anti-Peerage or anti-Count character to come to the Peerage every so often - to buy supplies, hear the gossip, even develop relationships or 'case' enemies. I draw the line at anti-Peerage characters actively seeking to party and quest with Retainers and staunchly pro-Peerage types (just as I would draw the line at seeing these Retainer characters accept an anti-Peerage person in their questing party). The obvious exception would be characters ACTIVELY being deceitful, which is also a possible avenue!

The TL;DR is this: Very few characters are Kill on Sight. In my view, low-level characters should never be KoS to higher-level, more established ones. The consequences of your actions should always be proportional to the actions themselves, which in turn should be proportional to your character's power level (both mechanically and socially).

[Zerminar12]

I think this was covered before, but here's my take, to add to the discussion:

"Political action" is broadly defined. Since DnD and EfU work on the character-level system, I'd say what counts as 'political action' for a level 5 newbie character is markedly different from 'political action' for a level 10 long-established character. A level 5 character might get drunk and mouth off. They might whisper in fear, only to silence at the chastisement or advice of other, more established characters. It's ok to be afraid, and it's ok to back down at those lower levels. You took a risk, commensurate with your character's abilities. If no one tells you to back down, or to stop, or opposes you - run with it. Run with it until you meet that wall.

In the same vein, the responses should vary, both as the levels of your opponents vary, and your own. I currently play a PC that, as an 'authority' on the Count's side of things, would likely take immediate issue with even a level 5 newcomer badmouthing the Count or singing the King's praises. But I think it's the responsibility of established characters to act along the lines of proportionality. If a long-established, level 9 character reveals themselves to have been anti-Count all along, and I find out they're actively plotting the Count's demise, and have already organized a network of supporters and collaborators, you better believe my response (which I consider proportional to the example I've given here) will be all-out conflict, with the possibility - even the likelihood - of FD outcome if I or my allies win engagements. However, replying in the same fashion (even if I, OOC, know full well that if 'allowed to flourish' a level 5 character might reach that same degree of prominence and become just as dangerous an opponent as the established level 9 I used as an example) is a bad look. Now, I understand that saying, "Trust your fellow players to play your characters' opponents tastefully" isn't always the most reassuring, but in my experience, most if not all long-term players on EfU are trying to do the right thing. Just as emotions run high for me when PvP conflict arises, tempers flare behind the other player's screen too. For me, the key is to understand that your adversaries and bitter enemies of today can become your key allies and collaborators tomorrow (some times on different PCs, some times even on the SAME PC - that's just EfU). So, I try to look past the losing outcomes for myself, to see EfU as this community, with all its flaws, where the point is to have fun.

Now, that sentiment is easier said than done, surely. But, to strive for it, I think, is the best way to approach and enjoy this game. Otherwise (in my experience) victory comes with a bitter taste, and defeat is always a cause for rage-quitting. And once you shut down the game, you're the one enraged. Life goes on in the server, for better or worse.



As a final thought: The server seems to me, currently, to be very fertile to 'anti-establishment' characters. While the main hub of the Ward is definitely a place to avoid if you're going to be speaking out against the most prominent current NPC, there seems to be lots of life in other areas, too.

In my view (I'm not a DM, disclaimer!) it's always fine for an anti-Peerage or anti-Count character to come to the Peerage every so often - to buy supplies, hear the gossip, even develop relationships or 'case' enemies. I draw the line at anti-Peerage characters actively seeking to party and quest with Retainers and staunchly pro-Peerage types (just as I would draw the line at seeing these Retainer characters accept an anti-Peerage person in their questing party). The obvious exception would be characters ACTIVELY being deceitful, which is also a possible avenue!

The TL;DR is this: Very few characters are Kill on Sight. In my view, low-level characters should never be KoS to higher-level, more established ones. The consequences of your actions should always be proportional to the actions themselves, which in turn should be proportional to your character's power level (both mechanically and socially).

Thanks for the response Kiaring! This was a lot of valuable input and I appreciate you taking the time to write it up. I'm not going to lie, I'm a coward at heart so the idea of waiting until I'm better situated to start acting bold definitely appeals. Nevertheless, I understand that at some point you just have to act. If you do all your scheming in the dark, it'll be too late by the time it amounts to something.

Thanks for the encouraging words on proportionality. EFU is one of the most mature and fair RP servers I've played on. She's a cruel mistress, don't get me wrong, but few players do what they do out of any genuine malice. I honestly believe that players will spare the weak whenever the opportunity is afforded to them, even if its not convenient for their character.

Finally, yeah the anti-Peerage movement has definitely started to gain ground among the player base. Lots of Ponds PCs, non-humans, changelings, etc. And while I do understand that I don't have to shun the Peerage like the plague (at least until I become renowned and reviled), I will say that IC it feels awkward doing so. I honestly prefer to segregate myself from the Ward entirely even if that makes life a bit more hard/annoying.

Also, even if it was a bit off-topic, I always enjoy people encouraging a patient "let it go" attitude to PvP and outcomes. I used to be a lot more salty back in Ch4 but after a while I came to the conclusion that dying in EFU isn't a bad thing. I realized it was just an opportunity to move onto a new character and a new plotline. A fresh start so to speak.

Thanks for the response Kiaring. Your advice was quite reassuring. Take care, can't wait to see you in-game!

[Rey]

No, they will not spare your PC at every opportunity. EfU playerbase is a mixed bag, like a lot of things, and some of us are fucking shitty people that will enjoy your misery. There's a long post about pvp karma in the wiki, and it wasn't written because we're all a bunch of angels that didn't need it. There are people here that believe in neither karma nor the importance of others being happy.

I think you're right about a lot of us though, maybe even the majority. I've certainly seen some intense pvp hounds take it very respectfully and maturely, with a great touch for the enjoyment of their IG opponents. And I've seen others simply not give a fuck and do whatever they want.

Sorry if I'm being harsh, this would just be an extra shitty one to learn the hard way. Best you harden your heart just a little bit first.