So for context, I managed to get a good distance on Vlad, to 85 I think.
While I highly enjoyed the lore and detail that went into most of the rings I will be honest that for the most part it really didn't feel enjoyable beating a ring. 92 and 86 were the worst for thing, where it was almost pure death, unless you create a char specific for them and metagame the fights it was very difficult to win. Further to this, it was so crippling, with a lot of the dm action happening around 99-95 anyway ,that it made me not want to return.
I'm not saying no can be a ringrunner by any means, and I'm sure people will post about how you don't have to ring run and it isn't for everyone, probably the same people who then hypocritically complain at pvp. But I honestly wonder what exactly the point of ringrunning is meant to be? As I really got no satisfaction from completing some rings.
I've no answer to this at the moment, hence the discussion. But I don't know, maybe to start, a club/inn with 99 levels would be hilariously amusing, where you got access to more things as you progressed like an elite club, would be fun. At least then there is some roleplay satisfaction to it...but as it stands? I mean I am hesitant to do it again, especially when you add in the time, coordination required too, I don't have time for that anymore.
I see it as a simple alternative option for characters just to make quests and do pure PvE. Doing Ringrunning, for me, is like playing a singleplayer nwn module with friends. Yes, content repeats, yes, if you die - you will need to repeat it again. Yes, some things depend on random numbers, some things just very hard for casual players. And it is important to contact other people OOCly and find crew with the right timezone.
But rings exist and it is very huge work and many many spent hours in toolset. Maybe with time, some content will be less hardcore as it now, maybe at some point more people will have the opportunity to complete quests and puzzles and see more areas. Ringrunning not perfect but it is a unique experience in nwn and DM-team worked very hard to make this thing live.
I think at the end of the day a lot of it depends on the swing of the server at the time. There was a fair while where Ring 93 was popping with various ring crews and etc. but recently my own crew tried to hold some events there and it was a straight up ghost town. It was kind of disheartening but like any concept it really depends on where the fire is at present.
With so many mercenaries/etc popping up in ticker square and so many deaths on the recent DM events I've got no doubt some people will be trying to make an earlier ring push which can help a lot of people out.
On the point of logistics, I thoroughly enjoy a lot of aspects of ring running and I feel like with a planned out crew with similar play times and such it can really be some of the most indepth RP on EFU. There's so much of a slog at times in 99 when trying to get into deep character RP with people where it turns into "Oh there's a dispensary", "Oh there's a sending for the Air seam", "Oh someone's fighting let's go watch".
Lastly on the DM point - While there's no denying a lot of the DM content does happen in 95-99, a dedicated crew can definitely get some DM attention on a smaller scale. It's just a different way to play the game, at a different pace. It feels way more authentic D&D which is something I've never done outside of EFU so it is a really enjoyable experience. It gives PCs more chance to sandbox and make up their own plots and stories and etc. I could all too easily see a small band of crusaders in the rings, or a Preacher and his flock, or at lot of other options for little bands with Micro-focus over Macro. 99's still there for the big waves, but in the Rings there's a different pace and a chance for PCs to just settle in and really tell some cool stories.
To me it's not even about the PvE but that you can just make up your own tales as you go.
Some kind of "Ring Runner Shop" in one of the more civilized Rings, like 93 or something I could see totally playing to your angle though Griff. Like if you've got a Keystone from X your first visit you can get a reward package, or something like that which scales the deeper into the rings you go. It would definitely help with how quick you can burn through supplies on an unfortunate encounter.
Or access to the "Ring Seventy Shop" for people who have only passed into the 70's, etc.
Nah forgot supplies and shops, but I really think something like an exclusive access club that you get per keystone would be great to be honest. That then feels...prestigious.
I think it would be good to gain access to some place unique or rewards to something in Ring 99 based on your achievement in deeper Rings. Something that is still bound to "the curse" and considered a secret NOT to share. Because even if you are roleplaying a Ringrunner, it's Ring 99 where all the players are to interact with.
Perhaps Strongholds in Ring 99 that can only be opened with a Keystone of Ring 80/Whatever. Or an exclusive subfaction. Or an exlusive store. Or an exlusive summon theme. Anything.
Achieving something in a deeper Ring only to be shared/enjoyed at the deeper Rings, where no one is to share the experience with, is not good enough imo.
I find ring running, especially ringrunning in deeper Rings, to be alternative to what some call "politics" of 99. I guess, this includes peer-ticker conflict and in general various conflicts between and within factions of 99.
Ringrunning seems to be clear of those squabbles, especially squabbles inside the group, as usual rule. So I find it to be a way to spend time on EfU for casual players.
Additional benefit of Ringrunning is a possibility to dive deeper into lore of the Ring City and perhaps alter motivation and the way they see life of City, its decay, curses and at times wonders that ringrunners will observe while they travel.
As for the shop I am against this idea. I see this turn into: "Let's do that Ring no matter what cost is. Some dope armor is going to be available". No one promises you reward, think a guaranteed reward is a bit immersion breaking. But the way I perceive Ring City lore reward will come if you get to Ring 1,
For sure there are issues with ringrunning and we work on improving them when we can
I don't think being rings being challenging is at all a bad thing though
It's an evolving project
The inn idea sounds cool and may be implemented at some point
The point of ringrunning... well, it does a few things. It creates a means for a static progression of characters. It allows you to access lore that would usually be dripfed out in other settings very slowly in rare DM possessions. It allows you to benefit mechanically and improve your character. All of this without any DM activity necessary, which, although our currently boom in DM activity might make it seem unnecessary, has become more and more so over the years, because there are often periods on this server without much DM activity at all. Some of us also just find it kind of cool as a thing to do and explore.
I and other members of the team think its possible for it to exist alongside the typical high intrigue and exciting PvP experience that EFU brings. I think there's room for players who enjoy both (I know that I do) or who only enjoy one or the other
If you didn't enjoy the experience, that sucks, but more actionable suggestions would probably be needed for us to make it a better experience for you, which we are eager to do
Thank you for the feedback and look forward to more and more updates on the EFU: City of Rings module
One of the things that I liked about ringrunning is that some of the keystones and things you pick up along the way aren't like the others. They've got their own uses other than just getting you through the doors. Perhaps keystones of prominent or difficult rings could more often have unique features (the theme of which is appropriate for their respective ring as is the case with such trinkets I've seen so far). Maybe a cool text prompt when used to show off or indicate dire implications as a nice reward for your efforts. If my ringrunner weren't dead I'd definitely have a macro set up for one such item.
On the subject of starting over, while I don't have an issue with such if I were going to play another ringrunner I can understand that people might be discouraged to go through it all again after losing their hard-earned progress. There are definitely rings that I'd prefer to skip (not because I think they're bad or too hard, they're just time-consuming). Maybe there could be an explorable with some ringrunner merchants that sell a single random key (not keystones, obviously). You could sell treasured keys to veteran ringrunners (or they could try to murder you for it), maybe it'll encourage your PC to start ringrunning, or you might get a useless key to a ring you'll never reach (or perhaps you'll be a wicked cool dude with a key to the fabled ring 1).
Since people talked about a ringrunner store or something, maybe the acquisition of keystones could also grant one-time prestige reward (or other point-based currency) so you could get some cool stuff from your faction. Not necessarily ringrunner specific, just an extra source of these points. Though I suppose this might be a point of contention as I recall a while back people didn't like PCs in associations heading off into deep rings instead of sticking around in Ring 99 where they're based. Honestly though I personally find that disagreeable (and discouraging to prospective ringrunners or people that want to experience everything EfU has to offer) because I could probably come up with several reasonable reasons why most of the associations should think progression through the rings is a worthwhile endeavor that should earn them at least begrudging respect.
Lastly, I totally felt cheated when I learned that some rings had been made less difficult. Besides the in-character reasoning for ringrunning, being a very badass veteran ringrunner had its own appeal and I wanted to suffer as those before me suffered (I also wanted other people to likewise suffer). Fortunately my character was pretty shit (and so was I) so I got to at least suffer some.
It's very difficult for me to stay it is or isn't what it should be, based on this being my first time through, and the rules around speculating on the nature of the setting OOCly. But, suffice it to say, I'm overwhelmingly happy and my expectations have been blown out of the water. In my case, it encourages me to try harder as a roleplayer to contribute something to the effort of those more active than myself.
Ironically, however, the experience has been curated heavily. It will be a significantly greater challenge the second time, because I likely won't have the same help.
If I look at it as a group rather than an individual effort, I can say that Time Zones and Game-Life balance are vital. Questing is tertiary, except where needed to progress or normalize the group level.
There's only one thing I would add; empty hubs. Trappings of civilization that only become relevant when players are there.
-Market stalls where relevant
-Oil, candles, cards, dice, etc. (RP tools) at every NPC merchant beyond the first keystone.
-Non-combat puzzle quests like the ring puzzle at major roadblocks.
A pacifist, royal puzzler route would be great. Though I can imagine the difficulty of making so many puzzles.
:)
Quote from: Damien on March 20, 2020, 09:54:28 PM
Nah forgot supplies and shops, but I really think something like an exclusive access club that you get per keystone would be great to be honest. That then feels...prestigious.
I have to disagree with this on the grounds that it just sounds entirely like a request for pure ego stroking reasons.
Not every player needs recognition for having passed the rings or wants to be 'exclusive' or prestigious, though I suppose that's probably a reason you tend to join factions if only to gain access to that 'exclusivity' aspect.
And for that to be the only reward, especially after your initial statement was about being 'drained' seems to indicate that a store and supplies should be more practical.
Quote from: Damien on March 20, 2020, 07:45:00 PM
...... I'm sure people will post about how you don't have to ring run and it isn't for everyone, probably the same people who then hypocritically complain at pvp. But I honestly wonder what exactly the point of ringrunning is meant to be? As I really got no satisfaction from completing some rings.
This quote sounds like someone who prefer's PvP and (when combined with the mention of 'prestige' above) just wants recognition and fame from other players over just enjoying all aspects of EfU equally. Add to this your comment, in not so many words, being irritated by people who don't engage in PvP, and it just sounds like you don't enjoy PvE or really are interested in City of Rings lore. Which would likely feed into your dislike of ring running.
You're reading too much into my statement and being toxic.
I love PVE. 99% of the time it is more enjoyable than PVP because the stacks are higher and monsters cannot grief.
Regarding the club too, that wasn't a dick stroking thing. Don't be ridiculous. Anyone who thinks their dick is bigger from being better at a game needs to rethink their priorities. The point was to give some tangible value to ring running. Currently all you get is a key and access to (potentially) an area where no other pc can access currently except your group. That doesn't sound enjoyable to me, and I think a club is an amusing and good idea.
A shop or NPC that awards you things (or sells you things) based on your highest key/keystone is an AMAZING idea.
There's already plenty of rewards from exploring the rings imo.
I was really late to the deep rings, because of IC and OOC reasons.
By that time I had heard a fair amount of negative press, so I expected the worst.
But I enjoyed ring-running heaps, pretty much the whole way through. Some puzzles, some combat, some lore. A sense of achievement. It hit all the right notes for me.
For the record, I think 95 is my least favourite ring, not because it is not well designed or interesting in theme, but just because it can take so long to pass it. It took me months on both characters I have played.
What puts me off is the apparent need for that organised play time and group, which I can't guarantee. Especially because if the group only has 1-2 keys for a Ring, that key holder is required to be on for you to move around in any real way.
What would make it more appealing is if there was a way to teleport to and from a spawn point in the deeper rings. So if you've set a spawn in a Ring, you can go to and from that Ring to the King's Commons, but not to anywhere else.
Speaking from my time exploring EFUA and EFU:M on Rangers, the exploring was fun but I kept longing for a Teleport wizard buddy to let me go back and enjoy the multiplayer aspects of the server, experience server events, etc.
A system to let you teleport to and from your 'base camp' would make the idea of ring running more friendly to a casual player or one without a group.
If you only implemented this after Ring 95, that would be a good way to stop it becoming "convenient fast travel to a questing area". 99-95 stays well travelled, the deeper rings become spotted with base camps. Keys remain important because you can only jump from your base camp ring to the hubs. You can't use it to "fast travel" through the rings, and you can't exploit it to go someplace your PC hasn't seen yet.
What it does let you do is head back to town and trade in strange things you found, or take part in server events.
You could use a combination of a long charge up time for the teleport, and a dose of Plane Sickness for doing it, to stop it being too convenient. It wouldn't be anything that didn't exist already for a L7 Wizard. It would mean you don't need to have a well-leveled wizard taxi service to make the most out of the concept.
While ring running is by no means perfect I wanted to weigh in on things.
- Firstly, to your point Egon, the Crossroads does allow a degree of trade in a still hostile, pvp free environment which brings a sense of danger to PCs trying to sell their fancy riches. Part of the trade off of Ring Running is you -do- miss out on the crazy DM events of Ring Ninety Nine. However it's no secret a good crew deep in the rings will catch a bored DM's eye just as much. To me though captaining a crew has felt like leading a multi-weekly campaign of D&D. Most of the time we're doing our own thing and our own stories and our own adventures then DMs come and turn the knob up to 11.
It's a trade off from the classic EFU "Oh shit there's something going on in X area, let's all go see what's up".
But it is still the closest to the D&D experience i've ever had, as someone who has never played PNP or tabletop.
- Secondly while the OOC aspects can certainly be draining it does lend itself like any other PC faction endeavor. Sometimes you wait for your crew, sometimes your crew waits on you, but typically it's such a close knit type of RP if you commit to the "Bit" of ring running that really brings out a fun dynamic to EFU. As someone who often plays criminals who hire feckless mercenaries or mad cultists who have zealous followers it has been sort of out-of-body experience. Not only to have PCs I can rely on but like ICly our stories are so interwoven and connected. By virtue of having to spend so much time together it creates a richness that feels almost on par with all the LOTR memes and etc. Out of all the factions I"ve ran in my time on EFU and all my crazy schemes, there really is such a feeling of having just thrown in hours into the story of myself, and this small group of PCs, that created some really tight bonds and awesome stories.
- As far as the purpose and reward EFU like so many things gives back what you put into it. I can't imagine without all the shelter-in-place stuff going on my ring crew would have been as fun or close knit but I got extremely lucky with a group of PCs who were around in my timezone, near every night if they were able. That has lent itself to such a wonderful experience compared to my previous groups, across numerous timezones, where it was more just "Let's get 9 people to hit the rings". There was no sense of "TOM HAS 2 HOURS THIS WEEK LETS GO GO GO GO GO HOW MANY RINGS CAN WE HIT BEFORE HE CAN ONLY BE AROUND NEXT SATURDAY".
- Ring Running is a new thing for EFU and brings with it a new dynamic. Any scripted quest on EFU has a minimum of 3 players for most ring content that I've seen. I can't say it wouldn't be -easy- by any means to 3 man the Rings but its "Possible". Three high level PCs who are all complimentary classes and have a cool or compelling reason to strike out into the Rings really could have the same experience I've been having.
In fact if I do another ring running Concept I probably would try to do it as three elite Retainers of a single houseHouse, Three Dwarves marching for the Bulwark, A Cleric Paladin on a holy pilgrimage with a hired Scout, or something else of similar of an even balanced small knit group.
At the end of the day Logistics is such a big issue on EFU and Ring Running and in the earlier rings the instinct is there to have a "Max party" for anything.
But that just creates logistical nightmares in my opinion when it comes to ring running.
Seven felt like a real good number for my crew hitting the early rings but after Ring 92 we only had five people, and even as crews have gotten leaner due to IC or OOC challenges and numbers dropped, we've all done some intense rings deep with only 4-5 PCs each.
And anyone will tell you we're far from "Optimized". You just try and find a way to figure out to do what you can with the people you have.
Which in and of itself is kind of a fun reward to be like "Damn, we made it how far doing -what-?"
Thanks for the perspective and advice., RwG The ring-running game looks really novel, but the worry for me was "Well I'd get stuck by myself a lot or have to bail on the group".
As you say, it's a different pace, and part of the joy of EfU for me has been often just witnessing the shenanigans that go on on a well populated server. Which is why my current PC is a 0-stealth rogue in an attempt to counter my tendency to go wandering off in pursuit of interesting nonsense.
I might try recruiting a few of my tabletop or larp gaming mates onto EfU for a ring-running "campaign". Just like a regular gaming night but without the need for a guaranteed DM.