V5 Feedback Thread

[Hound]

Lado you don't need other players to pass to ring 99 if you can figure it out. There also is quite a lot of nature areas if you can look!!!  Ring 100 is more of a starting area than anything.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought we started in ring 101. I meant no wilderness in 99 and you have to cooperate to move into ring 98.

You don't.

[d1n4l9q7]

Someone left the gate open, that's how I got into ring 98. Probably should be someone keeping an eye on these gates.

[Cruzel]

My feedback of V5 is mostly positive.

The world is alive. Randomized quests, placables, NPCS. You can't really know what's in an area until you actually go. There may be a time when people know general spawn locations, and learn the general content of those quests/placables, but for now there's a ton of new stuff. It's wild, it's fun, and exciting.  EFU isolates but makes the relative niche interests of the playerbase all accessible.

PVP centric concepts can focus on the commons/Dispensary
Explorers have the rings/seams
PVE people have the quests,
And non-combat fellows have tons of options in terms of the guilds and the peerage houses for people who want to RP and politic hard.

This is all super great.

However, there's one really really big downside to all this.  EFU has always had a lot of secrets. It's part of the server's' charm. But in a lot of cases in my opinion, this secrecy can actually be pretty toxic and detrimental to the overall experience. There's a few points to break that down into:

First, there's the 'obscure, unknowable things':

Howland loves to tell us after a chapter ends, about quests/puzzles that no one ever found/figured out. There are always interesting, neat things. Yet these things have no indications IG or have no practical possiblility to learn IC most of the time, that they even existedin the first place  (The pie delivery having an alternate recipient in earlier chapters, for example?)  A PC picking up the pie would have no reason to delay delivery, and the alternate recipient AFAIK made no mention of wanting a pie in his dialogue or description?

There's been tons of similar examples stated in irc/discord, about totally obscure things that were really cool, but never discovered because there was no actual means of doing so IG.  This is something I hope we can avoid with v5? If you guys make cool stuff, it doesn't need to be easy to find, but it should be at least hinted at?



Then, there's the "bad luck" thing. I think  this ruins a LOT of potential interactions. I completely understand you don't want new players or even vets who haven't seen something to be deprived of the chance to figure stuff out. It's 100% logical you don't want  chatty tom to roll up into ticker square selling guidebooks to navigating the rings.

But the idea of discussing the rings/city in general causing super harsh bad luck? It's a wonderful way to try and deal with OOC spoiling on an IC level. But ultimately I feel like  It kills a lot of scholarly type concepts of people who'd want to gather that information, even if they're not sharing it to the public. It's a generally unclear guideline of "dont talk about the rings" that eventually leads back to the first point of things being obscure/unknowable.

I don't think it's healthy for the server in the long run, and I think it's self-defeating. The players likely to Oocly spoil things will still do so, and this system mostly relies on players to report spoiling when it happens. All this bad luck thing really accomplishes, is limit genuine PC collaboration and interaction. The bad luck could simply affect people who publicly share this knowledge, and it would ultimately achieve the same goal without being a detriment to the server or the high quality RP/interactions that it's known for.


Then there's the stuff that's secret for the sake of being secret, which makes no sense:
Prime example: Ascetic Bonuses.
You need to apply for this class, which will affect your build from day 1, and not knowing what kind of things the ascetic can do forces people to build extremely generic or just pass over the class because all they have to go on is people saying "it's bad" because they're not supposed to discuss it with people.   This kind of secret is just straight up HARMFULL to the overall experience.   In contrast: Bonuses of something like Bloodmage, which don't affect your character from day 1 and are stated to be somewhat random? Completely fine to be a mystery, IMO.


There are a lot of the above,  and I think if EFU5 can break away from the "secrets for the sake of it" and keep secrecy confined to things which actually have a reason to be a mystery, then the efu experience can be enriched further as more people can see/enjoy things like that.

[Howlando]

Just a few comments -

1 - You definitely don't need to cooperate to get through the first selection of Rings; getting through Ring 95 and beyond likely does require developing a close group of allies to tackle some hard stuff. I don't think this is a bad thing. As noted elsewhere, later on Ring-running can be theoretically approached solo (negating the need to find new allies if you lose your group) and will - I hope - be a whole new experience for EFU.

2 - There are some as yet unfinished Ring 99 areas that are more suitable for loner-types, and plenty of ideas for more druid-specific content in the future, but please don't take this as evidence that I like you Ladocicea.... *

3 - I think Cruzel misunderstands me on several levels.

OOC'ly, I just ask that players keep us informed about what kind of content they spoil for other players so we can ensure there's an appropriate reaction.

If you want to play a scholar concept, that's great. And you can test the edges of the "bad luck" - it will be handled appropriately and in a nuanced manner by IG things.

I am also ALL FOR scholar groups that examine the Rings, that speculate IG and IC, that study and learn new things, that share their knowledge... and that, perhaps, cooperate to delve deeper into the Rings and IN SO DOING directly learn new things that they can share among themselves.  We have built a server that absolutely is intended to be EXTREMELY encouraging for such concepts; the prospect of scholars uniting to band together to learn and discuss.... is great!

I just ask that, for goodness sake, you understand that I (and others) did not build this world for the benefit of the first group of hardcore players that figure everything out. Please try to be respectful for new players who come behind you and maintain the challenge for them also.

Howland loves to tell us after a chapter ends, about quests/puzzles that no one ever found/figured out. There are always interesting, neat things. Yet these things have no indications IG or have no practical possiblility to learn IC most of the time, that they even existedin the first place  (The pie delivery having an alternate recipient in earlier chapters, for example?)  A PC picking up the pie would have no reason to delay delivery, and the alternate recipient AFAIK made no mention of wanting a pie in his dialogue or description?

And as for this part, you're just being silly and perhaps taking too much irc/discord banter to heart.

Practically everything in EFU gets learned and I think it is nice that we have a server filled with some selection of secret little things. If I build something, you can bet that I will try to make it something people can figure out - which almost always, always, always happens. What I don't want is for players to feel like that they have ever "figured the whole server out."

Please understand that in v5 we have brought EFU to the next level in terms of content that you can readily figure out, learn, explore, discover....it is truly another level of EFU. We just have far more than any other chapter in terms of this kind of stuff.

Then there's the stuff that's secret for the sake of being secret, which makes no sense:
Prime example: Ascetic Bonuses.
You need to apply for this class, which will affect your build from day 1, and not knowing what kind of things the ascetic can do forces people to build extremely generic or just pass over the class because all they have to go on is people saying "it's bad" because they're not supposed to discuss it with people.   This kind of secret is just straight up HARMFULL to the overall experience.   In contrast: Bonuses of something like Bloodmage, which don't affect your character from day 1 and are stated to be somewhat random? Completely fine to be a mystery, IMO.

Don't think Ascetic properties was a secret? -  maybe we didn't list it publicly but I always told ascetic players if they asked. It was such a minor thing though with so few actual ascetic PCs.

To be honest I think it is a little unfair to criticize us for being too close-lipped about mechanical info in v5 as we have this brand new wiki that properly presents all this information in a clear and complete manner. If there is information you think is missing on the wiki, contact one of our wiki goblins and we can ensure it gets put there.


* Just kidding Lado, come back to us.

[Empress of Neon]

I have to say, I love the setting to tears. It's mysterious. Creepy. Laden with conflict, intrigue and POLITICS! Sweet, juicy politics...

But, I do have some suggestions on a mechanical level after playing a bit.

The first is the lack of 'loner-friendly' zones. One of the things I liked about ch. 4 was how you could, feasibly, wild it. Or in my case, creeper it (necromancers 4 life!). This was extremely valuable in that it permitted a plethora of different concepts to not only be able to survive, but in some cases flourish. As it stands, the few areas available for new arrivals do not necessarily permit this. Ring 98 desperately needs some new zones for crooks, loners, madmen and fish-dog worshiping loonies to skulk. Adding a sense of 'there can be anything out there' beyond the Pond, Ward or Square, while also allowing (in extreme cases) the flourishment of new gangs, cults, etc.

My second suggestion ties into this a bit. The city is massive, but it's very likely the vast majority of activity is going to remain in the 99-95 for awhile. One missed opportunity I'm noticing here is the lack of explorable buildings. Not ones for encounters, or quests. But huge sprawling urban complexes that could range from anything to 'abandoned estates infested with rodents/undead' to 'rows-upon-rows of apartment-like structures that are almost always empty and there purely to add a sense of vastness/organic feel to the setting'. Honestly, I wish we had just these HUGE mega-urban interior maps that fit the flavor of being entrapped in  a primarily-urban environment. Yes, I know and have seen we have a few; random explorables as well as the recyclable quest areas. I'm talking about, again, areas that exist for the sole sake of existence. Just these immense squalor-like interiors that play onto the sense of 'haunted city' and 'something is definately wrong/something horrible has happened' while also giving players, perhaps, more places to hide/turfs to seize. I mean... -that- many buildings can't possibly be caved in/locked... can they? Definately something that could expand as the server develops; primarily in its hub-rings.

Summons can also use a revamp. Look, I love my summons. I love them more than life. I want them more than I want world peace in EFU. I need summons more than I need air. But some of the themes are seriously overdue for a revamp (particularly those that have no unit onclusion). I'm not saying to touch old-time favorites like the elementals, but perhaps look at some such as illusions/insects/shadows (also celestials. GIMMIE THOSE CHERUBS!) ? You have so many more assets available now that weren't possible in vanilla toolsets (I know, I've played with them a bit ;) ). Insects could become ants, beetles, centipedes, wasps, scorpions and more. Shadows could literally be any creature from the plane of shadow (like mastiffs! rawff). And illusions? Please, PLEASE put singing dolphins into the illusion summoning theme. Get even more crazy/ludicrous. It feels like it should be a MAD HOUSE now that we're out of the Dunwarren. I guess what I'm saying is... OPERA-BEAR-KNIGHT!!! This bit's more for balance than anything else.

The last suggestion I could make right now about the server is maybe add some wage systems. If players are going to commit to factions (all of which HAVE wealth), it doesn't make a lick of sense for them not to get paid. Let's be sure not to belittle the ever-so-epic perks of politicians/merchants though ;) Also dye barrels (sweet, juicy dye barrels).

P.S I love the Royald Herald. May he be the ONLY survivor. Keep forever :3

[Howlando]

I welcome suggestions, however please direct them them to the suggestions forum.

Summons definitely need a revamp - opinions about which themes are OP/under-powered is welcome. I just haven't had time to really dig into them. But yes... there will be new themes... alley cats is a much requested one.

There will definitely be more content added to Ring 99.

[Hollow_Mage]

The early game (levels 2-5), meaning the quests and areas, do a great job of explaining EfU's unique mechanics naturally through practice. There is consistency in messaging (orange names, descriptions, conversation content and layout), and intuitive level design (large, clearly-labeled regular transitions) throughout. Easily the best case of this in my memory. And that's just the hub.

Specifically, I'm talking about having your bearings enough to live out a day of adventuring, without yet knowing all the ins-and-outs of the land you're traveling in. 10/10

New players start learning not only in the first area but in the precise point they first spawn in. The advice to use the Tab key to highlight placeables is vital to navigation. The good news is that if you employ this technique, you'll find the module is designed around it. It's the least obtrusive it's ever been. All the tools work, all the optional settings work, everything but katanas is right where you'd want it. Excellent documentation on technical support, as well. 9/10 #nitenryuuichi

[trop]

Briefly put: the setting is excellent and the designers deserve SO MUCH CREDIT (you guys are really pros). The world reflects a decade's worth of experience with NWN and EFU's brand of roleplay from the DM team.

Having said that, I have almost completely bounced off the new setting. These days, I usually have 60-90 minutes at a time to play, maybe 2-3 times a week. I know the highest priority of EFU has always been engaging roleplay, but it'd be nice to create some accessible, simple, fun content for the rest of us who only have the time to play minor-league adventurers.

A few factors/examples:
* expensive sendings - make it harder to catch a quest group from Discord or even while ingame and not in a hub
* "bad luck" means characters are afraid to take novice adventurers into deeper rings (even to 95)
* lack of mid-level quests in Ring 99
* randomized quest locations means you have to scout them before you can take them

That's my feedback, but I do recognize that EFU is a "hardcore" environment and that compromising the vision for "casuals" might not be an option...

[Howlando]

Fair criticisms and I'm happy to hear suggestions for what things make easier for more casual players while still maintaining the general difficulty/atmosphere for others.

[One_With_Nature]

Just notes on the Peerage Ward. Pretty much everyone there is a retainer of one of the houses, I think it would be better to make retainer-ship more exclusive and also make it so you can't induct non humans without DM oversight and probably an application or something. Need more commoners.  I think it will bring the ward to life a lot more with variety.

I feel there should also be two levels to associations - basic entry level and then for PCs that have earnt prestige or done enough for the association to be "Promoted" as it were, by recognized for this (maybe an application). I don't know how all the associations work in this regard but from having played in one of the noble houses, I'm not sure spending favour to improve your station is the way to go, this feels like it should be more of an EIG through actions not through for example PvP at the dispensary.

I also appreciate that this requires DM input, but it would be cool to see more input on faction direction, as it comes across as PC's are just running the show at the moment in most cases with no consequences of their actions (whatever path they may choose) even if its in direct conflict with the factions ideals.

I think the rings/quest balance is really good, however I think that important quests that help one progress in the rings for example should have no level cap. I don't see this being too much of a problem early on but in a years time probably.

Although I am enjoying the idea of politics in the rings, it doesn't seem to have as much influence in this setting as far as I can see so far as you might like, it mostly seems to come down to might is right which I think would be a positive to steer away from. I think it would foster more interesting concepts if politics had a much bigger role to play.

Planar sickness is a cool concept, and I think it would be better to see more visual effects from it as well as the cool thematic messages, even in the earlier stages.

[Voss_]

A "bannerman" position is definitely something the houses can use.

[Anonymous Lemur]

Peerage is by far the most successful ward as far as being interesting to interact with/within. Lots of colourful characters with reasons to hate each other. I do agree that letting non humans into houses should require dm oversight and maybe require an application. I also disagree that the players "running the show" is a bad thing. Given there hasn't been a single incident of someone going against their houses ideals without warnings from npc's and consequences.

I feel like the ticker needs to become more fiercely capitalistic. Somewhat similar to a duergar settlement with the poor being trod upon like the parasitic vermin they are etc. With the Pond being the place to be to be free of the tyranny of taxation and high prices.  The npc's seem to give off the same vibe as duergar with their miserly tones. I'd like to see the stonemasons encouraged to fiercely extort merchants who aren't "guild members" with the aim of keeping them poor and the membership small. 

The Pond being the place to go to escape from iron rule and the peerage ward, being less heavily taxed, but only allowing human merchants to prosper with the blessing of a household. Essentially it would be nice to discourage "peer/ticker" or "pond/ticker", but instead encourage folks to align with the peerage, ticker OR the pond.

[Hollow_Mage]

I'm a big fan of the quests against a single boss enemy. I liked it when you had the Ziggu-Rat, I liked the giant ice elemental, I liked the potion golem, I liked the giant named deep lizard ghost, I liked the underwater shark fight club. Those quests are some of the most entertaining.

None of them compare to that Fighter-only quest from early EfU:A. It was in the north-east corner of the map, just before the transition to the temple ward. You'd go in, player limit 1, and have a fight with somebody. Obviously, nobody's gonna clear your body, so you had to win, die, or run away and quit.

-

I think the answer to mid-level content is to have single player quests that are class specific. Fighter duels, Bard performances, Monk meditation spots, etc. These could be designed unique to the class in terms of how many steps they take, and what rewards are available. These quests should not be a substitute for the multiplayer experience; they should give the character something to work on while they're logged in, or take place near other quest areas. The idea should be for, say, a Wizard to stop by Alice's Bookstore before they go on a quest with players, because they've been given a list of 3 random scrolls to find and deliver. The Rogue quest could be an obstacle course similar to Bilby's, but with a different aesthetic. For some, the idea would be risk/reward, while others are simply about concentrated effort. Just like the classes themselves.

This helps casual players by adding another quest they can do at mid-level regardless of who else is on.

[KaedweniKnight]

I feel like the ticker needs to become more fiercely capitalistic. Somewhat similar to a duergar settlement with the poor being trod upon like the parasitic vermin they are etc. With the Pond being the place to be to be free of the tyranny of taxation and high prices.  The npc's seem to give off the same vibe as duergar with their miserly tones. I'd like to see the stonemasons encouraged to fiercely extort merchants who aren't "guild members" with the aim of keeping them poor and the membership small. 

I agree with this guy here. I feel like Ticker Square isn't really 'represented' very well by the players - it feels like this generally 'good' organization of merchants and ringrunners. I'm sure part of this was intended but having more depth in the square I feel is something that needs to be addressed.  Added below I feel Butchers/Stone Masons could add internal conflict in the square.

So, I asked some DM on what the story is with the 20,000GP Merchant Guild Entry Fee you pay for the property-owning ability (- several DMs and it has been a rather vague answers on it. I know of atleast one other person that has accomplished this - I feel Ticker Square could do with some more internal politics and intrigue. I would propose that the DM/Devs work out some kind of additional system to this - it's a damn feat to get this amount of gold to join and just the ability to own a piece of property seems shallow - becoming an elector for guildmaster positions would be interesting - elections is what I'm saying we add to Ticker Square. - Only for merchant guild members only though + guildmasters. Besides ~the ability~ to own property on the square, what else is there to this 20k gp deposit? More depth would be awesome. Also, strongly agreed with the Peerage point earlier - needs to be some better form of hierarchy and rank to achieve

. The Butchers versus the Stonemasons would be a cool avenue to explore for within the square. Perhaps both get promoted for security of the square and are at internal odds? (Not direct pvp battles, I feel like the server already has enough of that, shared jursidictions, same goals, far different methods of handling.) Merchants in the square and players have to pick sides and play politics thusly within, and promote this somehow in the players with plots, rewards and DM events.

[Hound]

Upvoting the above. Ticker Square is in need of some sort of friction; it is boring at the moment.