I don't think an explanation is needed, i like offensive casting mages, but the rest restrictions have left mages as prebuffers alone. I think they should have a way of dealing damage (effectively) without having to turn into melee mages.
Figured it couldn't hurt to throw an idea. Although i really don't expect much reactions in favour.
Suggestion: Add a special ability to wizards/sorcerers throuhg player tools. Unlimited times/day allow them to cast a fire bolt dealing 1d6+1 damage +1 per 2 caster levels after level 1. This in hopes to have a wizard damaging the enemy from behind the fighter, effectively supporting him actively in battle.
There is a similar class to this called the Warlock, that I think first pops up in AD&D 3.5. They are even more specific than a sorcerer, in that they really only get their blast power, no actual spellcasting. It would be a little unbalanced to let wizards/sorcerers get this ability and still keep all their regular spells.
Agreed. If they get such, they have to sacrifice something important, like spell slots.
Wizards and sorcerers alike can choose the craft wand feat at level 5/6. For the paltry sum of less than a hundred gold coins, you can get a cantrip wand which fires 25 charges of for example frost bolt. This should be a feasible contribution to any offensive spellcaster. You can go as high as creating a fireball wand, which would be pretty deadly in any encounter with masses of enemies. Else, use crossbows or bows.
TalirIsWise
There are a few wands that are handy though. Colour Spray. Holding. Cantrips yeah, for swarms. Missiles though and Negative rays are just not cost effective really.
However, what I would like to see is a way to create "mini wands", 5 charge wands at a fraction of the cost of full 25 charge wands. Fireball wands are very expensive. 3k. Even Acid Arrow or Combust wands aren't cheap. But, if you could have a 600 gold 5 use wand as a reserve, that would be quite handy and not a huge investment! Something that fills the gap between scrolls and full, expensive 25 charge wands.
Wizards are super effective in combat yes in a large scale war/battle Wizards are good as buffers but are super effective in PVP. Especially 1 on 1 in a ambush. I recall a lvl 10 wizards destroying my entire party of warriors and a priest. Wizards can be super in combat depending on the situation but id say in scripted quests/Some DM events their effective as buffers.
I think you mean "only" in an ambush, unless you've got to a point where you walk around with a "kill the shit out of someone" load-out all the time. You've rather missed the point though, DrD. It is nice to feel like you're doing something offensively useful in a fight, not just buffing and invis healing (if you have a smart regular quest tem that lets you take ontarget heals), shooting rather rubbishly or scratching your wizardly balls.
There is a bit of a consumables gap here IMO, with potions being easy to find or buy and deploy throughout fights, but their caster equivalents (scrolls and wands) much less so. Especially as the DC on consumables is quite low. Stuff like Caster Level 5 Missile/Ray devices, scrolls and cantrip gear in more places than just 2 quests really would be good.
I think GSF:Evocation mages should be able to craft some sort of arcane focus attack device thing Similar to a spell sequencer. (It stores and is able to recast any spell you cast on it at a later time, for a set amount of times) The gizmo would maybe give 2-3 charges of the attack spell of their choosing, and the charges would fade after maybe an hour of realtime. There could be multiple strengths of these items available with some being more rare than others, each allowing a variety of charges and spell levels they accept. So a mage could make a weaker one that only lets you make cantrips but gives you 5 shots or so; Or a stronger one that only lets you make level 3 and gives you 2 shots. Etc.
This way a GSF:Evocation and primarily offensive mage can get 'more spellslots' for their offensive magic.
While -most- quests are short and sweet- allowing the mage to conserve his spells enough to keep the quest balanced, making this unneccessary, some quests can be rather long and harrowing, and after the mage has exhausted his spells he either becomes an observer or a healer. This could add some sweet variety to how quests play out, since atm most mages you see are either buffers or summon spammers, or melee. Not to mention it would not be hard at all to script/implement, since it would literally be a few minor tweaks to bioware's already implemented sequencer system.
I think we should listen to Talir.
.....Craft Wand is just about the most useful feat a wizard can take, if only for wands of invisibility.
Cantrip wands are just a huge bonus.
The only problem with wands (especially evocation) is that they cost ridiculous amounts of money, and (apparently) money is hard to get for some people, making playing a wizard who has a nice stockpile of wands sort of nonviable for them, considering how fast they would use them compared to how long it takes for them to get them.
I don't really think that saying "Just use wands" is helpful advice to most players, as they really can't afford them.
I personally would prefer any viable alternative to seeing every mage go invisible an entire quest healing/summoning or just standing there firing a crossbow that will never hit.
Even a unlimited use/day ranged touch attack with like a +4 AB bonus that does like 1d6+2 elemental damage or something would be nice. (And easy to script). Even then they would do less damage than a fighter, have less AB, but they would have a solid method of damaging that isn't hindered by the aurora engine of doomy hardcodedness.
Mages can use crossbows, which have about the same damage. There are various types of ammunition too. Mages can boost their own crossbow AB with cat's grace, and should get about four ab pretty easily.
Use a crossbow, craft a wand (why else would we want the feat so much other than making a lot of cha-ching?), Boost the economy for wands (has there been an EFU:A bale out?) or cast a spell?
I know I don't do anything around here any more, but for the sake of considering game design...
I don't like the "use a crossbow" 'suggestion' as it doesn't seem... mage-y... and other reasons I touch on in my rambling. But the idea of making lesser-charged wands, cheaper, seems like a step in the right direction that might actually not-break things here. Although this doesn't help the non-crafter. :???: Perhaps open up cantrip crafting to people even without the feat, but only usable by the exact class of the crafter, non-UMDable?
[hide="Rambling"]4th Edition realized that having everyone contributing to an encounter at the same time, everyone having something meaningful to do every turn, keeps players engaged, which keeps them happy. Keep everyone playing together on the same thing. A wizard hanging in the back with a crossbow is no longer participating in a meaningful way - their show ended when they finished buffing, or will start when they nova.
But 4E is a whole different edition of D&D, designed with a different philosophy. It may be one that I think is more appropriate for gaming, and probably one a lot of people recognized - as indicated by this thread, and by 4E - but that doesn't mean it can just be plugged in anywhere.
But what am I rambling for? I don't do anything any more.[/hide]
Suggestion:
Implement a custom PrC with very low requirements and no app necessary. It turns a wizard or sorcerer into a Warlock and allows for unlimited uses of an extremely limited number of abilities per day.
But they lose their wizard level
It's a real fine line between keeping fireball throwing wizards useless and making them godly. Even if a Wizard prepared only offensive magic, currently, they would be pretty useless on nearly all quests in EFU.
Sadly it's the nature of the beast, it's nwn and not PnP and encounters happen hundreds of times more often and when you add in lengthy quests you simply can not play an offensive mage effectively.
I like the idea of less expensive mini-wands with 5 charges or so. I am almost never able to craft a wand because of lack of funds.
I don't particularily like the idea of cheap level four wands
What Strife said.
wizards do suck tho
In no way is this officially endorsed by me typing this...
How would you wizard folks feel about the ability to purchase cantrip wands from a NPC vendor? It would at least allow the general populace of mage types to look and attack a bit more magically. Even if they can't rub two sticks together to make fire themselves.
Wizards are ridiculously useful/powerful on EFU. Its
TOO EASY[/b] to be a wizard as it is. Adding cheaper wands or what have you will make it ridiculous and borderline obscene.
As a firm beliver of GSF Evocation and not-buffing, I assure you they can do substantial work along the way without "Going nova".
You simply have to be able to pick your moment to bring the hurt, but a single evocation spell can change the tide of an entire battle. You don't need to freak out, haste, and spam a ton of magic missles (Don't get me wrong, its one, its one of my favorite wizard tactics), but one well placed evocation mid-battle can make all the difference in the world.
Its a fun trade off, but Evokers shouldn't use Crossbows.
I'd rather have a Wizard in the back, surveying the scene, barking orders and such since Evokers are traditionally more militaristic wizards.
Quote[size=8] Wizards trying to launch a crossbow with their pathetic 3 or 4 AB on a mid/high range is annoying. [/size]
Everyone has their place on the battlefield. A Wizards is to the back or to the flank.
Put that high int to use and start throwing out tactical advice, looking for weakness, and applying pressure to the right places.
Feel free to bring wands to compensate for buffing, but as someone who plays almost nothing but evokers, your job is to bring the pain.
[/rant]
why can't you just buy cantrip wands from a pc
(Rolls in the dirt and laughs at all of you, gasping for breath and finally dying of suffocation.)
Wizards. Do. Not. Need. Help.
Haste. Fireball Spam. Dead Enemies en masse. Scintilizing Sphere, all at level 5. And All can take down a level 9 warrior, EASILY.
Offensive wizards should know WHEN TO PLACE WHERE. It takes a bit of practice, but once you get the hang of it, you're invaluable to any and all quests.
What about the option to create wands only for themselves. These would be exceptionally cheap, perhaps limited to certain spells, and would be undroppable. This way they couldn't be sold or anything.
Edit: And could also allow DMs to prevent such absurdities as near infinite fireball spam. Perhaps limit it to single target damage spells.
*Agrees with the above*
Pretty much all I would have had to say about this has been said by others. Just be careful, and look for that opportunity to really get that useful spell in. Although it isn't really a requirement to play a wizard, it helps a ton if you have good reflexes, and a steady finger upon the mouse and a careful eye upon the screen. :p
Take into account the damage is less that a warlock's attack. Not at fist level, but instead of adding 1d6 damage every 2 levels it adds only 1.
Level 5 wizard 1-6+3 = 6 average 8 max
Level 5 Warlock 3-18 = 9 average 18 max
Level 9 wizard 1-6+5 = 8 average 11 max
Level 9 Warlock 5-30 = 15 average 30 max
I could be wrong though, correct me if i am. Also take into account it's a bolt attack, may miss, it's not insta-hit as the elderich ray would.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;135640What about the option to create wands only for themselves. These would be exceptionally cheap, perhaps limited to certain spells, and would be undroppable. This way they couldn't be sold or anything.
Edit: And could also allow DMs to prevent such absurdities as near infinite fireball spam. Perhaps limit it to single target damage spells.
I like this. Wands of magic missiles mosly, maybe allowing them to vary in between 2-4 missiles with different prices. If they are created in the user's inventory but can't be droppped then they can't be traded and only used by the crafter,
I support that.
EDIT: I'd like to add, my intent is to have wizards doing magic, not using crossbows or meleeing, or healing using trinkets wich is what they do as of now.
One more thing, please for once ignore PvP.
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;135639...And All can take down a level 9 warrior, EASILY.
Quote from: Dr Dragon;135569but are super effective in PVP. Especially 1 on 1 in a ambush. I recall a lvl 10 wizards destroying my entire party of warriors and a priest....
This is not a PvP suggestion. Wizards are godly in PvP, but not in PvM, i think it's easy to tell the thread is aimed towards the wizards/sorcerer's usefullness on quests.
Because this attack is no stronger than a magic missile, it brings no advantage to PvP. Therefore won't affect it. The only reason i dared to post it was this.
Please do not bring PvP arguments to the discussion.
Quote from: Dr Dragon;135569Wizards can be super in combat depending on the situation but id say in scripted quests/Some DM events their effective as buffers.
My point.
Scripted quests are kinda silly as is, I don't think you need to get too concerned about any given Wizard's efficacy on them.
I'm not saying that this needs to be implemented, or even that it's a good idea, but what about making the to-hit rolls (if there even are any) for the abilities/wands based off of the spellcaster's primary attribute modifier? Wizards use intel, Sorcerers use char, et cetera. The problem with using slings, crossbows, and the like to replace spell damage is not only that it's somewhat odd from a roleplaying perspective for most characters, but the fact of the matter is that you might as well be doing nothing rather than wasting ammo. If you think about it, even if you don't give the wands a to-hit roll, they're still really not all that powerful.
If you use Drakill's damage numbers, Wizards are still at the bottom of the food chain in terms of damage. Nobody is going to have just a straight 1d6 damage. Hell, nobody's even going to be as low as 1d6+3 damage. If you make the caster roll to hit, you further dampen his ability to do damage. And even if he does hit, the damage isn't that significant. This issue becomes significanty worse if you make them use their Dex bonus to hit, which any vanilla caster isn't going to have as many points in as they would their primary attribute. Furthermore, a wand isn't going to let you attack twice in a round like most classes will be able to.
This isn't going to break a class that's already broken in PvP. If a wizard/sorc doesn't have the right spells memorized for a PvP situation, they lose. This won't change that. As Drakill said, we're looking for a PvE solution, not a PvP one. Implmenting something similar to this will drastically help a Wizard in PvE without making them invincible in PvP. The exact damage and numbers are debatable, but I think I like this option on a whole a lot more than having crafter-only wands, especially if you can use fireball.
I think I disagree with everyone here accept talir and alyssara. There is a huge deal of rubbish here! Direct damage spells are not that effective on quests. So what? Evocation still has some excellent spells.
"Wizards are boring to play if all you do is buff people..." is the general theme of this thread from what I can see and it had an easy solution. Don't just buff people. Buff one person and use the rest of your spells (probably quite a few!) for excellent spells that can turn a battle. My four favorite evocation spells are darkness, shelgarns, cloud of bewilderment and empowered lightning bolts. Each of these spells has a huge affect on any battle and the first three stick around for awhile. I believe you could easily keep darkness or shelgarns up for nearly every encounter on even high level quests!
Having scrolls on hand as well to deal with particularily difficult enemies is also invaluable. Wiping away smug mort NPCs that gobble potions by using dispels is very enjoyable. Crushing shadowsheild is very exciting! Surely a wizard that uses no supplies or is poor is about as useful as a fighter in the same situation, that is to say not very. I think to often wizards get to high level, get poor, and find the experience boring, before quitting the PC. This is their fault not the classes!
The issue here is, if you add to the dificulty of the quest you should also add to the power of the party. Using damage spells will do so, for half the quest if the wizard is a high level for it. You burn your spells before time and you sit half the quest doing nothing, like with the buffs, just that your buddies aren't buffed and it becomes more dificult for them.
I originally just wanted a rod of frost. But simply it won't help. When your average enemy has 50 life and your max damage is 5 it isn't worth it. 1d6+3 will not unbalance the quests, nor PvP. But it will be amusing to see and use, even if just for the show and you will contribute to the fight, even if a little.
Cantrip wand, 50gp, problem solved.
50gp costs 25 charges, about 5 you need to make significant damage. So it's 10 gold every time you want your fighter buddy to swing his sword one less time.
If you use it for the show you'll end poor. Against anything worthwhile it simply does nothing. What's the point?
Cantrip wands are incredible. They can kill Immensely powerful DM creatures, lol.
I killed a Underdark Behemoth Spider with an acid splash wand once with my goblin wizard. Not like I needed gold for anything else.
At the end of the day you're a wizard, wizard use wands and magic, if you don't have magic prepared you can't use it. If you don't have the money for wands tough. Don't like it? Should have chosen another profession, like I dunno, fighter!
My original view on this whole conversation was based on allowing a PC Wizard to seem a bit more magical in their attacks and such. It has since shifted, in my opinion, to statistical numbers and debates as to the benefit of whether or not to utilize various resources already in place.
If you won't spend 50-60 gp on a cantrip wand because it is not economically viable... then play a buff bot and take your pot shot with your crossbow quietly in the rear of the group as you wish for a time when you could interact more then, "Gather around me."
More drops, maybe?
If you spam cantrip wands you'll easily burn through a few a quest. Now you can spam potions because they drop on quests, low power high charge magical attack loot drops on really one quest. Now, smart regular questing groups give wand making/using classes MORE money to let them use those, but the average group doesn't.
So. How about 20-40 use cantrip items as a common drop on quests, like for basic weaponry.
Now, I've played buff mages, full on evokers who would whine about having to transmute anyone and ones in between. The trouble really is on the high end of things where quests get too long for anything but buffs to really pay off.
Now, possibly it requires a player shift to thinking of "offense mage" as a valuable support class and distinct role in ADDITION to a buff-loaded caster. I've had a lot of fun rigging to blow stuff up when my team's had other casters taking on the buffbot role. Oh and sending empowered fireballs at trolls. That was hilarious.
You know what? That's IT isn't it. RwG is RIGHT completely. If you want to play a killer mage, do it uncompromisingly and delegate buffs to some other poor schmuck.
It's still fairly dull to do nothing though. I personally really like Polymorphing and wrecking stuff for a while, but that's very dicey on a lot of quests due to the amount of dispel about.
Don't quest with the average group then. I could never see any of my characters paying a wizard more unless he was using wands like the colorspray and the like to great effect regularly in honesty!
Not to mention wizards can use common healing to keep warriors alive in battle, same goes for just about any class that isn't so useful for whatever quest you may find yourself on.
Argent Gish did fine in my book.
Consider how much a careful wizard is saving on other consumables. Your average fighter drinks his gp in a variety of stat-boosting potions, and most wizards can cast the neat ones (blur, fox's cunning, shield, endurance, endure elements of various potencies) on themselves. 50 gp for 25 charges (if that is what it still costs) is a bizarrely low amount of cash to be able to throw spells around.
I have played a handful of wizards, none of whom desperately needed cash even after kicking up bribes and keeping themselves supplied. This suggestion doesn't seem like a necessary addition.
I think it honestly disrupts the setting to have each and every mage constantly whipping bolts of acid and fire at the opponent. Magic has always been "sorta rare" compared to everything else and it's good that way.