I like herbalism a lot, and agree Rangers and Druids should have a great bonus to it, but it seems unfair they are the only ones who get any bonus at all, considering everything in NWN is about bonuses. I belive there are other characters than rangers or druids who could have good reasons to know herbalism, such as:
A wizard who often wanders the land and studies the propieties of plants. A non-magical healer of any kind. Random farmpeople with "home recipies" made of herbs who uses them often.. etc.
How about selling items that modified the herbalism check? Something like "Herbalism tool +1". That allowed a player with no animal emphaty to reach up to something like +7 when all were gathered? Druid and rangers would still benefit a lot, because not only they don't have to buy it, they can easilty reach higher.
This can go under that level 5 special thingie feat thing mort was talking about, otherwise, this is undesireable.
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;136318This can go under that level 5 special thingie feat thing mort was talking about, otherwise, this is undesireable.
Umm.. didn't know about that. CAn you share a link?
A high lore wizard/sorcerer/any class should be able to handle herbalismn pretty well.
I still don't understand why AE is included into a check that deals only with dead animal parts afaik though.
Quote from: GravenKiss;136331A high lore wizard/sorcerer/any class should be able to handle herbalismn pretty well.
I still don't understand why AE is included into a check that deals only with dead animal parts afaik though.
For lack of anything better. The Animal Empathy skill encompasses knowledge of animals -and- plants on EFU:A. It also provides a convenient way to offer druids and rangers a class specific bonus towards herbalism if they choose.
But, as has been said a decent lore skill will go a long ways with basic recipes. Will you be making all the uber cool loot? No. But you will likely be able to handle the basics without much issue.
One thing I wonder though... Does AE gear count towards the skill check even if the character does not possess the skill naturally?
It doesn't.
Perhaps it can be made so?
If it doesn't already then it can't be made to. The problem is that your character -must- have at least one skill point assigned by virtue of a level in a class that has access to it. Without that one point the skill won't even show up on your character sheet. Without it listed there the game has no way of knowing what your score would be as a result of worn gear. It is simply ignored.
Nobody's using Craft Weapon/Craft Armor, and they're both related to Intelligence as an ability. Why not switch it over to those?
Imagine you were a druid herbalist who woke up tomorrow completely incapable of making your more powerful recipes because the skill was changed.
The fact is, herbalism is -not- barred to other classes. Honestly, the items for basic recipes are common enough drops. Seek them out and -try- them. You'll be surprised at what a semi decent lore skill will get you. The most powerful things? Yes, they will likely be unattainable, but that doesn't mean you can't dabble.
Remember too that much of Alchemy is unattainable for the common adventurer and only the most dedicated caster classes are going to be able to attain high level items. That doesn't mean that people with Lore only can't pull off some of the basic recipes there too.
Of course now that I've gone through all of that, I am beginning to wonder if it would be possible to make the formula for Herbalism skill a little more complicated... Something like AE (or 1/2 Craft Weapon whichever is higher) + Druid level + Ranger Level + Lore.
This would effect practically no change for current herbalists and would still make Druids and Rangers the kings of the trade. Meanwhile it would open it up -slightly- more for other classes.
You don't nee AE gear. Remember wizards/sorcs/bards have access to Identify, which is ridiculously powerful for high DC crafting checks, adding 10+Caster Level to your Lore skill. Not to mention a wizard can prep Fox's Cunning and Owl's Wisdom to add a couple more ranks.
It is not hard for a mage to be able to do even some pretty strong herb checks with enough Heal gear. Ahmed can, and he's a Necromancer, so he can't even cast ID.
Yeah. I had forgotten those buffs. Actually a bard could make a pretty fantastic herbalist with their level bonus to Identify and their access to buff spells.
So, right now, lore modifies the check or not?
Right now, the formula for your Herbalism check is as follows:
Druid Level + Ranger Level + Animal Empathy + Lore
So, if you are a level 10 fighter with 13 Lore. Your herbalism check is 13.
If you are a level 10 druid with 13 lore and 13 AE, your check is 36.
Oh... didn't know that...
Maybe it is just me, but I fail to see how walking up to a jungle cat and petting it relates to herbalism. A common hunter would stand a much better chance of recognizing the common parts inside of an animal, lungs, heart, liver, etc.. A physician, would also recognize these things, even though they differ from ours. A tree hugger that only befriended animals and never butchered them wouldn't know a liver from a heart.
IMO wisdom or intelligence would make a better modifier.
A) Animal Empathy is not just walking up and petting wild animals. It's just poorly represented by the engine. It's about appearing non threatening to the animal and communicating with body language.
B) Herbalism is -not- only healing. This has been discussed elsewhere in the suggestion forums as to why it is not a heal check associated.
C) Druids are not all hippy tree huggers that never kill animals. Death is a natural part of the life cycle. As is predation. (ie, killing to EAT). Druids understand and embrace this.
D) Wisdom and Intelligence don't go up with levels or gear much. You're likely to only see 1 -maybe- 2 points increase in your stats, whereas skill points are much more readily incremented.
Honestly, short of a DM response saying otherwise, you should probably consider Animal Empathy as representative of one's link to nature (and thus plants as well as animals). The better you understand the whole system, the better you are able to make use of individual parts to create something useful.
I guess i can have Wayne take a ranger level. Although that's what i wanted to avoid. Or just get a stock big enough so even if i only succed 10% i still have enough!
Rangers and Druids have a rapport with nature that affords them superior skills in herbalism. This is represented in various ways that you have apparently discovered.
It never ceases to amaze me just how difficult it is for players to understand, let alone accept, that Animal Empathy is quite simply the best choice to represent an advanced understanding of nature.
And taking a single ranger or druid level just for e.g. Animal Empathy is a sure-fire way to get on the bad side of many of us.
Oona has alreayd clarified the way the check works, but;
I'm guessing some of you have not used these systems extensively, but you will find any PC without a negative wisdom modifier and a decent lore skill can make pretty much all the basic stuff.
Herbalism is by no means a system that only rangers and druids can use, but naturally they excel at it because they have a connection to nature other classes don't share.
In fact, most of the DC's of the things a PC starting out in herbalism are rather low, and you would only have a hard time if you had no lore and no wisdom. The more complicated stuff is obviously going to be more complicated, and you should think about making a deal with a ranger or druid to help you with your concoctions if you can't manage on your own.
(Having an experiment buddy is always a lot of fun anyways - I Strongly advise working in pairs or more when trying out the EFU:A Crafting systems)
As i said i didn't know Lore added to the formula.. i was in the impresion it was only AE. I'm no longer in need for something else, i invest 9 points in lore and don't need anything else really.
Was there a sticky about this somewhere? i couldn't find it. Maybe there should be, and one for alchemy and cooking too, and all others.
This Thread contains the information you seek, Sirrah (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=31709)
Just out of curiosity, aisdes from your post were is the link? I often forghet there was an EFU since i was never there, so seeking the UD forums is not really "obious" for me..
So i can read the info before suggesting too...
Old forums > Information for new players
Thanks.. although i was expecting it to be on this forums.
Quote from: Snoteye;136519It never ceases to amaze me just how difficult it is for players to understand, let alone accept, that Animal Empathy is quite simply the best choice to represent an advanced understanding of nature.
While I agree that AE is the best choice to represent an understanding of nature, it is a poor choice for herbalism. I don't claim to know every herbalist, but I have yet to meet one that wasn't a vegetarian, or one who would even consider killing an animal for any reason. On the other hand, I hunt, fish, raise hogs and chickens, raise a garden etc.. I also use several plants and roots for various medicinal remedies. Trust me when I say, herbalism has nothing to do with animals.
As NWN has nothing to actually represent herbalism, and as it was mentioned above that Wis wouldn't add much as a modifier, I would suggest heal+lore as better alternatives, along with Ranger and Druid levels.
My two cents.
QuoteTrust me when I say, herbalism has nothing to do with animals.
As has been said... AE, in the context of this server, is about more than just animals. It is a characters connection to all of nature. All. Plants, animals, and everything in between.
Now. As for those herbalists who are all vegetarians... Well take a quick look at traditional Chinese herbal medicine, which uses ample quantities of animal products including ried insects, dried animal parts, and various other oddities. You know tigers are nearly extinct because their testicles are used for male virlity potions? Just one of many uses for various tiger body parts. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/97184.php
Moreover, herbalism in EFU:A is -not- all about healing and medicinal supplies.
Let's take a look at this logically here for a moment. I believe when they redid the Alchemy/Herbalism systems they announced something like one hundred different items that can be crafted between the two systems. So, split that right down the middle and that leaves 50 for herbalism. I can't think of fifty healing items that could be possible given the limitations of the NWN engine. Right off the top of my head, I can think of 10 healing items that can be bought that would make candidates for herbalism.
That leaves roughly 40 other unique items that could be crafted that would have absolutely nothing to do with healing.
The system is fine, really. And as has been pointed out by me and now Cruzel as well, the basics are easily crafted by any character.
EDIT: Also, if people are just getting tripped up by the term 'herbalism', which I am beginning to think they are.... Don't take the word so seriously. It is a simple catch-all for traditional remedies and bodily supliments.
Time to weigh in with a few more basic tips, hmm?
If you're interested in crafting, load up on crafting sets. Rings are great things to hoard with different ones for different checks, they are lightweight. There is a LOT of excellent Heal gear around from a certain 2-4 solo quest, and that often turns up at player merchants. Go to a wizard store and buy Spellcraft gear for Alchemy. Even go and buy a Wisdom buff off Mother Oggla before attempting some difficult Herbalism checks.
Work with a buddy. I'f you're a ranger or druid, collect the supplies easily and run them to a friendly mage when you want some Alchemy doing. Ahmed found out a lot of recipes by working with three other PCs on figuring out the recipe drops.
Herbalism: A traditional medicinal or folk medicine practice based on the use of plants and plant extracts. Also known as botanical medicine, medicinal herbalism, herbal medicine, herbology, and phytotherapy. The scope of herbal medicine is sometimes extended to include fungal and bee products, as well as minerals, shells, and certain animal parts.
As you can see, yes, animal parts do Sometimes have a small roll in herbalism, though it is just my opinion that herbalism is more of a medicinal thing. As far as NWN goes, It wouldn't matter if you used taunt and tumble scores for herbalism, so long as you know that before making an herbalist.
An interesting sidenote: If you have a child who often bites their fingernails, you can usually get them to stop by smearing chickenshit on the ends of their fingers. Just an old remedy I heard of once, but I bet it works!
How does smearing chicken feces one someones fingers have anything to do with healing them? Unless you count nervous fingernail biting as a seriously life threatening ailment that requires immediate medical attention.
This is just getting silly. If you really want to suggest a change, suggest a name change for the profession.
"natural crafting"
Or
"Herbalism ....and stuff"
maybe?
Fleeting heart, in your earlier post, you mentioned herbalism is not all about healing and medicinal supplies. (see above) On a more serious note, the fingernail biting remedy was made in jest, as I mistakenly supposed most would realize. However, in response to this joke, you make note that nail biting is not a life threatening ailment.
My question to you is: Is herbalism medicinal(as in nail biting isn't), or does it cover other things(to include nail biting)? In reversing your position from one point to the other to continue trying to prove a point, you merely solidify my point that herbalism IS medicinal.
If you feel the need to discuss this further, perhaps we can chat on IRC, so others don't waste their time reading all these posts, and so we don't waste our time posting them.
Actually, I was using a joke to point out the false logic in your post, Bard. You say it -is- all about healing, and then offer that up as evidence.
I've not reversed my position. You just miss understood.