These are suggestions I am putting forward based on actual play.
When getting quests, especially since the system is very new, I have noticed that it leads to a lot of OOC chatter. This is impart because it is new, and impart because there are some OOC things every PC needs to know or do. This is more or less how it goes:
Player1: "//Everyone gather around the quest giver."
Player2: "//I can't get close enough."
Player3: "//Hold on I'll move over some."
Player2: "//Okay, I'm ready."
Player1: "//Okay, I got the quest, everyone added?"
Player4: "//Um. No. Was I too far away?"
Player5: "//Hold on, I got it and I'll move. Player1 get the quest again."
Player1: "//Okay got it now Player4?"
Player4: "//Yes. Thanks."
Player1: "//Okay does everyone now have the quest?"
Player2: "//Yes."
Player3: "//Yes."
Player4: "//Yes."
Player5: "//Yes."
Player1: "//Okay, back IC let's go."
Suggestions:
- Allow one person to get any quest. However, in order to actually enter the quest area they must have the minimum number of players added to the quest list. They can do this via the quest tool they receive. I'm assuming this can be done through the repelling that takes place when you try and enter a quest area, but don't have the quest.
- Allow people to use /c setally regardless of radius. I am not sure if there is some IC reason for people to have to be standing next to each other to be marked as allies.
- Create a /c allylist command, that would display all the allies currently tagged by the character. That way the character can then use /c setally again to remove any they don't want on the list.
These are the only three suggested improvements I can think of right now.
I spammed a different thread with one of these suggestions mere minutes ago.
I agree with all the above, though.
You can do it IC. Why does it have to be OOC?
What? How can you have a conversation in character about whether your journal has gotten an entry or not?
I meant the initial part. This:
Player1: "//Everyone gather around the quest giver."
Player2: "//I can't get close enough."
Player3: "//Hold on I'll move over some."
Player2: "//Okay, I'm ready."
Player1: "//Okay, I got the quest, everyone added?"
Player4: "//Um. No. Was I too far away?"
Player5: "//Hold on, I got it and I'll move. Player1 get the quest again."
Player1: "//Okay got it now Player4?"
Player4: "//Yes. Thanks."
Player1: "//Okay does everyone now have the quest?"
Player2: "//Yes."
Player3: "//Yes."
Player4: "//Yes."
Player5: "//Yes."
Player1: "//Okay, back IC let's go."
***
Doesn't Player 1 (The Speaker) receive a list of the players added to the quest? If not he should.
The "make one person get the quest" requires a lot of work and modification to efuqs. Took me 10+ updates to squash all the bugs.
I might make the range slightly larger.
For a few reasons.
1. People quickly go OOC because the system is new and they are confused and have questions. Such questions are obviously OOC. (I.E. "How do I set someone as an ally?") As typically happens, when one person goes OOC, lots of people go OOC all at once.
2. I'm not sure if there is a logical IC explanation to get so many people to surround a placeable / NPC to get a quest. You have to be -very- close to get the quest, and if you have more than two or three people, there is going to be a lot of bumping and crowding and stuff going on.
3. Whoever takes the quest has to know who didn't get the quest, or if everyone got it. This is obviously something OOC, and can't be done ICly. They either need to use the tool to set them as a member of the quest, or get them closer to the placeable / NPC and use the "add another to the quest" feature in the dialog.
These are just a few, among the several, reasons people go OOC. I'm just reporting on my experiences so far! I read why the radius is so small for getting quests, so I thought it'd be easier just to have one person receive the quest, and then use the tool they receive to give the quest to others. That would solve 95% of the issues with OOCness I think.
Once the quest has been received by everyone, and all OOC questions / issues solved, people go back IC. It's not a -huge- issue, but I do believe it is an unintended consequence of the new system.
Quote from: Mort;138771I meant the initial part. This:
Player1: "//Everyone gather around the quest giver."
Player2: "//I can't get close enough."
Player3: "//Hold on I'll move over some."
Player2: "//Okay, I'm ready."
Player1: "//Okay, I got the quest, everyone added?"
Player4: "//Um. No. Was I too far away?"
Player5: "//Hold on, I got it and I'll move. Player1 get the quest again."
Player1: "//Okay got it now Player4?"
Player4: "//Yes. Thanks."
Player1: "//Okay does everyone now have the quest?"
Player2: "//Yes."
Player3: "//Yes."
Player4: "//Yes."
Player5: "//Yes."
Player1: "//Okay, back IC let's go."
I was just giving an example of what it sorta looked like, that's not an actual in game conversation. :p Most of the OOC that went on was much more messy, with a lot of, "What? I don't understand." and "Why isn't it working?" and "Am I doing something wrong? Am I close enough?" :p
Quote from: Mort;138771Doesn't Player 1 (The Speaker) receive a list of the players added to the quest? If not he should.
I will check this as soon as I can in game, and then report back on it. Maybe someone else will do that before I get the chance, but I do not recall off the top of my head.
Quote from: Mort;138771The "make one person get the quest" requires a lot of work and modification to efuqs. Took me 10+ updates to squash all the bugs.
Then it probably isn't worth it. It's a minor thing, and should probably be given another week or so to play out. I just thought I'd report on my initial experiences with the system, and where I thought it could be improved.
The speaker should get a list of the people he added to the quest. If he doesn't get it, I'll double-check.
I just check it. Yes, it works fine.
Maybe to speed things up the Add Player to Quest tool could also have an Add Group to Quest? Essentially adds everyone in a radius to the quest, just like the initial quest pickup?
Would still need a dialogue of "Do you accept" otherwise human error could lead to people involountarily getting the quest.
Quote- Party Invites have been disabled.
- Getting Quest Requirement is done through proximity and a tool ended by the Quest-Giver.
- XP is handed based on proximity to the kill.
Mort, I have no doubt these changes represent a lot of work on your part in an attempt to make the game environment more realistic, and I don't doubt they are scripting wonder, but:
1. They are annoying.
On getting quest - Annoying because of the aforementioned "gather around the quest giver" scenarios.
No Party Invite On DM impromptu events or large scale events, no parties will be able to form, meaning overall XP is reduced and the DM is more likely to leave people out of the end XP. If you can not invite to party, you can't party up to explore, or do non quest PC driven plot material.
2. They take away from having fun.
Reduced XP for distance Bowyers, arcanists (who need to be away from the fight), or other characters who may load the screens slow may loose out on XP. Makes ftrs and other frontliners level faster, and so will support less range of character classes seen in game.
The other two afrementioned as well. The more hoops I as a player have to jump through to get the quests or events moving, the less fun I have. Isn't that supposed to be the whole purpose of the game engine, to take all the little things and do them for us so we can focus on questing and RP interactions?
Sometimes you have to forgoe a little reality and a little 'abusability' to make the game more streamlined, approachable, and usable. The more you change it (game mechanics wise) the less approachable it is to cross over from other existing PWs, and creates and enforces a 'niche' game environment with a steeper learning curve.
Ease of play, Character Advancement, Fun Interactions are hallmarks of good, multiplayer platforms. Please lets not move away from this environment and further isolate ourselves.
In the end, I as a player don't support these changes, and if need be I will vote with my feet and play elsewhere.
I myself find that the exp gain has stayed quite fair as it is. I have not found to be gaining any less exp even if I stayed behind or further, but this time you do not get exp if you stay on the other side of the map in quest area.
In DM events you actually gain more exp since you can get it through kills done by everyone in the battle scene that you can see, atleast. DM experience on other hand, even with party it's the same. It doesn't change the fact that if DM's are too busy to go and give exp, then they are and you get left out. Happened a lot of time in the past with party system all together.
Quest taking and such might need a bit tuning, but I am sure it can be worked out. It can't be a total buzz kill, I am sure.
On the matter of making party for exploring, I am objecting that completely. Now it is more easier. You just go together. Simple as that. You can get exp where as before, by being part of the group exploring out there.
Have you tried these changes a lot, Beggar? I think quite many thought the worse but after trying it's not bad at all, in my opinion it gave a good flavor and I don't even think about it anymore.
In the end, and this is just my opinion, the changes sounded a lot more harsh and difficult than they are. You just play your character normally, and you won't after a while even think about changes anymore.
Quote from: Verybigliar;138997Have you tried these changes a lot, Beggar? I think quite many thought the worse but after trying it's not bad at all, in my opinion it gave a good flavor and I don't even think about it anymore.
Many players don't quite understand just what these changes mean. Beggar has raised some extremely good points which I, frankly, had expected would have been raised sooner.
Indeed he did. They are very valid points. And yes, surely not everyone will like them, but perhaps some can come to find them interesting after keeping at it for a while. Or then we can discuss of some alternative options in time.
Count me as one who really likes the new system. Like Beggar, however, I've got my issues with the way it's implemented.
The new system is great insofar as it prevents the involuntary metagaming that occurs when you party up with someone. The problem is that the convenient and easy system we had for managing party affairs has been replaced by something far less intuitive, adding a learning curve to any new player who wants to check the place out. I agree with Beggar to that extent, but I think the new system can be patched up and made as easy to use as the original party system.
My thoughts are as follows:
1. Only one person should be in charge of managing the party. The process should be completely invisible to the other questers. An "Add/Remove" tool should allow the party leader to see the current party in a numbered conversation list, remove someone on that list by selecting the corresponding number, and add a player to the list by clicking on them with the tool.
Unless I'm missing something, this system would leave all of the OOC considerations to the party leader. Once the quest was started, the party leader would only have to add anyone not on the list, or remove people accidentally added by proximity.
2. Quests should be given a third completion option. Instead of "You have completed the quest" or "You have abandoned the quest" there should also be an option for "You have been removed from the quest by the party leader." This way, players who are kicked from a quest before it begins for IC reasons (or because they were added by mistake) don't have to wait for a reset to take the same quest with another party.
3. Extend the XP award to include everyone within fog range. Fog range is the default distance between a PC and the line of fog at the end of their screen. AFAIK, this is also the range beyond which the AI will not respond to attack (wild orc shamans notwithstanding). This prevents PCs from exploiting the AI with bows and crossbows, but still includes them in the fight.
Am I missing anything?
Cant we just "remove" the party portraits in the upper right area, and otherwise keep the old party system?
This way there would be no metagaming locations, hp and so on. and we would still keep a simple well tested system that we (and players from other servers) are familiar with.
Although i do enjoy the new system, and i'm sure most will once the inevitable little bugs are solved, Beggar brings up a very valid point about players coming across from other servers.
If EfU begins to niche into very pointy mechanics, however excellent, it risks loosing players, or at least not attracting many more. I don't believe we want it to become a private small community elite server. The game is old already so brand new players is tough.
So, although i endorse that change and i don't think we should revert back to the old one, just be careful not being lured by high-tek-revolutionnary things. In the end, we all want to have fun and put away the mechanics as much as possible. Radical modification are a slippery slope.
Quote from: Disco;139022Cant we just "remove" the party portraits in the upper right area, and otherwise keep the old party system?
Unfortunately not. It's either or.
Forget the distance from xp. You wont notice it, unless you are several screens away or AFK in a corner of the map.
Similarly, in DM events, we needed party to be small to prevent lag. In this, well, no lag from parties, and everyone present shares xp. DM XP is based on people nearby, it works totally the same. If you are in a different map, No, you might not get XP -- But it's the same problem if people forgot to invite you to the party before, just a different side.
If people who tried thinks it is awful after a few weeks. We'll revert. I think I made it very user friendly and disgruntlement is due to misunderstandings, but I could be wrong! I tried it as a player and thought it was awesome.
Most of the comments In-game from people who tried it thought it was great and most of the disgruntlement came, usually, before trying it out.
I was against this new party system, now that I had tried, I love it!
Now is possible to bluff more, a rookie can boast himself as a veteran, and a veteran can lie and pass for a newbie. You will judge a mage from spell cast ( no more, mage 28 hit, ah 5 lv with cost 14 , or a fighter with 28 hit? oh no a kamikaze, if we wanna see him alive after the first fight, we must...).
Now roleplay is more easy, excellent!
However, if it risks loosing players, I will sadly vote against, because the reason of play online are the other players...
My hope is that the others will love this new sistem too ...
If it results in loosing players, trust me, those who give up because of this awesome feature, we won't miss them.
Quote from: Blake the Boar;139250If it results in loosing players, trust me, those who give up because of this awesome feature, we won't miss them.
You can't say that with any certainty.
I know new players are somewhat slow to arrive these days, but if I as a new player encountered this on a different server where I had no play history, I'd probably go somewhere else.
Now, not to honk my own horn but I have received compliments on my play and characters in the past. None of that would have happened if I had never come to play here.
Sure, you can't miss what you never experience, but I can say for certain that if I had not been here, there would be characters that would have happened differently, no matter how small my impact.
That said, I do like the system, I just find it to be poorly documented. Especially at the start when all the panic hit the fan. There are still some questions that I have not seen answered, nor had the chance to experience in game. Chiefly, traps and how they work without a party. Both player layed traps and QA trap obstacles.
As for changes, I think it is safe to say most placeable quest 'givers' could have their radius increased for quest pickup. Most are not in highly trafficked areas and should not cause a problem with people accidently getting flagged for a quest.
Of course, this would never be an issue if players had the opportunity to drop a quest without being flagged as failing for the day. So that if random player A does happen to be in the area of a quest giver and get flagged for the quest, they can drop it with no penalty. If they want to pick it up again later, fine. If, however, they enter the quest area, they lose this opportunity and are now locked into the quest. If they drop it, they have to wait 24 hours or until a reset.
This could be handled quite simply by forcing a journal update on QA entry. That way, the quest tool can know whether or not you have entered the QA yet.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;139257You can't say that with any certainty.
I know new players are somewhat slow to arrive these days, but if I as a new player encountered this on a different server where I had no play history, I'd probably go somewhere else...
I've seen new players leave for numerous reasons, most of them, things that make the server awesome. Some of them were, the level of difficulty and challenge, the heavy death XP penalty, the low level range, applications needed for PRCs ... So, players who leave for these reasons will likely have fun elsewhere, and these very reasons fall on the same category as this new update, IMO.
That doesn't mean they are bad people and would contribute nothing if they stayed.
Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
I like this server. I really do. But I have noticed that since the new implementation there are definitely less people on at any time of the day. Last night I was on, and there was only 1 other person on the server, something I had not seen in several weeks of playing.
Usually when I log on in the mornings (my mornings that is), I would see 20+ people on. This morning, there was about 12-15.
This change is definitely driving people away, and quite frankly, that is not a positive thing, no matter what sort of spin you put on it.
And the big thing that is beginning to grate on me is the lack of numbers on this server. It's no good having an "awesome" ruleset, if no one else appreciates it and goes plays on another server. Because then the people who do appreciate it such as myself are left with less and less people to play with.
As a result of the declining numbers, I too have been tempted to move to another server simply becuase they at least have more players on all the time, so you won't just be wandering around waiting for someone else to log in so you can quest with them.
Lets face it EFTU is not a solo server, you need other players on to quest with, and in most cases the level 5+ quests require 3+ people. You ain't gonna get that if you are running a level 5-7 character and the only other person on the server is a level 3-4.
End rant.
Quote from: Blake the Boar;139250If it results in loosing players, trust me, those who give up because of this awesome feature, we won't miss them.
Yes, that would be incorrect.
I seriously doubt any slump in activity is due to any single change or factor, but a conglomeration of factors.
Quote from: Mort;139282I seriously doubt any slump in activity is due to any single change or factor, but a conglomeration of factors.
Whilst that may indeed be the case, adding yet another complexity to an already complex server may well be the straw that breaks some camels backs...
I ain't saying that the slump is solely due to this, but if you have a better explanation as to the slump in player numbers in the last week, I would love to hear it.
While I think Beggar brings up some good points, I am curious if he has tried the new system thoroughly. I had a handful of reservations before I tried it, but overall I think it is a net positive. I will also concede that added complexity may not be good for attracting new players, however I would counter that argument with one of my own.
NWN is an old game and we are in competition with many other servers similar in some respect to our own. A unique feature such as this gives us the chance to stand out from among our competition, and could potentially draw in more interested individuals. Individuals who show up to try out something "different and new."
I would not be so quick to claim that it will cause new players to turn away, although I will not argue that some will not be turned away as a result. As Archon mentioned I have seen new players leave EfU for a number of reasons. Most that I have seen leave EfU do so as a result of our allowance of PvP. In fact, I can say that one new player left last week as a result of an IC incident that involved PvP.
Should we then, in an effort to keep more players, disallow PvP between PC's or put large limitations upon it? I would say no. It is something that makes EfU unique, and helps create the type of environment that we enjoy.
Finally, a note on something that has not been mentioned. I have noticed as a result of these changes people are using their own healing much more often. I bring this up so that it may be taken into consideration when it comes to balancing out EfU: A and healing on quests.
I love the new system after doing a DM event I can vouch that this system is awesome.
Great suggestions here overall, with a special second to the use of the quest tool to view who is on the quest as well as the ability to add/remove people. This would hugely cut down on the:
"//ok, everyone got it?" messages
This would also allow for the "leader" to quickly review the list and add/delete anyone who was forgotten or inadvertantly added.
I would also like to suggest a new one if no one else has already done it: make the tool transferrable in case one person needs to log or whatever. In effect, this would be like the old "transfer leadership" function. Look at it like the person holding the doll was in charge of the "commission papers" for the mission. A number of other quests I've seen require that the person who turns in the quest have some item in their possession - this would be similar and would cut down on potential griefing - someone who runs ahead and turns the quest in, gets the reward, and bails on everyone else. In the old system, at least you had SOME idea of who screwed you because you knew where everyone was at - now you would have almost no idea of who raced ahead to turn a quest in.
Quote from: PlayaCharacter;139016Count me as one who really likes the new system. Like Beggar, however, I've got my issues with the way it's implemented.
The new system is great insofar as it prevents the involuntary metagaming that occurs when you party up with someone. The problem is that the convenient and easy system we had for managing party affairs has been replaced by something far less intuitive, adding a learning curve to any new player who wants to check the place out. I agree with Beggar to that extent, but I think the new system can be patched up and made as easy to use as the original party system.
My thoughts are as follows:
1. Only one person should be in charge of managing the party. The process should be completely invisible to the other questers. An "Add/Remove" tool should allow the party leader to see the current party in a numbered conversation list, remove someone on that list by selecting the corresponding number, and add a player to the list by clicking on them with the tool.
Unless I'm missing something, this system would leave all of the OOC considerations to the party leader. Once the quest was started, the party leader would only have to add anyone not on the list, or remove people accidentally added by proximity.
2. Quests should be given a third completion option. Instead of "You have completed the quest" or "You have abandoned the quest" there should also be an option for "You have been removed from the quest by the party leader." This way, players who are kicked from a quest before it begins for IC reasons (or because they were added by mistake) don't have to wait for a reset to take the same quest with another party.
3. Extend the XP award to include everyone within fog range. Fog range is the default distance between a PC and the line of fog at the end of their screen. AFAIK, this is also the range beyond which the AI will not respond to attack (wild orc shamans notwithstanding). This prevents PCs from exploiting the AI with bows and crossbows, but still includes them in the fight.
Am I missing anything?
Yes. I'll modify the tool so if you use it on yourself. It will prompt a list of everyone who has it as well as an option to remove these characters from the quest.
If the quest is not started, the removal will not lead to the removed PC to not be able to do the quest anymore (rather he can definitely start it at a later time).
If the quest has been started, the removal will lead to a quest failure for the removed PC.
As for the concerns toward traps. Traps can still be flagged and will be shown to everyone when flagged. That's a non-issue.
But if you use traps, yes, then your friends can no longer dance over them. I think that's a +.
As for animal-empathy, it only fails when someone attacks an animal prior to it being empathi'ed, it will keep on attacking whoever attacked it. (This makes sense as well). I think that's a + too!
Quote from: Mort;139367But if you use traps, yes, then your friends can no longer dance over them. I think that's a +.
Only a plus if it means mobs can trip their own traps too :-(
Given that PCs have very little control over their traps (square of rather large area), I don't see this as much benefit. All it means is that whomever is laying them has to constantly pick up what he layed down if they don't get tripped by a mob. Otherwise he risks harming his own party.
Would there be any way that they could be changed to only effect Hostile PCs and NPCs? Rather than everyone?
Also, as a side effect of all of this no party system thing... I have noticed some other odd behavior. For instance, a healing character can effectively stay out of combat and keep massive bandage heals going on whomever they wish with no penalty. Sure, it is a slow heal, but it effectively gives the receiving character +1 regeneration per round. Or am I mistaken and bandage healing breaks on damage received?
I could... Traps are rarely used anyway and this would require me to modify the script of 30+ traps. Not that it can't be done but it's just long.
Ah. You mean- not being consider in battle if you are not being attacked and being able to heal at full strength? That's a nice +, I admit.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;139375Would there be any way that they could be changed to only effect Hostile PCs and NPCs? Rather than everyone?
If possible, not for standard traps.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;139375I have noticed some other odd behavior. For instance, a healing character can effectively stay out of combat and keep massive bandage heals going on whomever they wish with no penalty. Sure, it is a slow heal, but it effectively gives the receiving character +1 regeneration per round. Or am I mistaken and bandage healing breaks on damage received?
You are not. You say you have noticed -- does that mean you have seen people do this? I'm curious because, while it is technically true, I thought applying them like this would still add the +10 penalty (not that it isn't easil overcome by a dedicated healer).
It is possible, snot-eye.
Pertaining to AE, auto-attack is a bitch. I think that's what the person was referring to when it was brought up. Learning to control Auto-Attacks, especially around animals being AE'd takes some time and even then it isn't ever a sure thing.
As for the quest tool modification and the remove-PC function-- awesome. That fixes every dilemma I can think of.
Quote from: Mort;139384It is possible, snot-eye.
Nope, not for default traps. There is no master trap spring script.
Yes. BUT there is a single script for each trap. I should know, I've modified default traps before.
Quote from: Mort;139401Yes. BUT there is a single script for each trap. I should know, I've modified default traps before.
Every single custom script adds to module size its own size plus that of the base script. There are maybe 30 unique trap scripts (one for each type for each strength) -- modifying every single one of them just to overcome this is a study in module bloat. It's insane.
Quote from: Snoteye;139382You are not. You say you have noticed -- does that mean you have seen people do this? I'm curious because, while it is technically true, I thought applying them like this would still add the +10 penalty (not that it isn't easil overcome by a dedicated healer).
I've done it myself in fact. On my wizard, I happened to have not attacked anything for a while and had therefore cleared combat, despite the fact that my 'party' had continued to press forward.
I happened to have a bandage lying about and needed a small heal. I figured it was a long shot, given my already low heal skill (a whopping 2 or 3), but tried it anyway. Shocked that it worked at all, I took a quick look and saw that I did not receive a penalty.
So, what I can surmise, is that the penalty was based on being in combat. Since there are only three ways to enter combat (attack, be attacked, or be in a party with and on the same map as someone attacking or being attacked), and one of those is now gone, it becomes extremely easy to remain out of combat, even while tossing heals (wands, spells, or bandages).
Honestly, I find it a great plus, but on the other hand.... Why was there ever a penalty put in place if this is now considered ok? Certainly having someone beat on you while attempting to bandage is going to be .... difficult. But for the most part someone putting on a bandage isn't in the process of being smacked around.
If that is the way bandages work now, and I am not completely sure that is the case (I will double check), then I don't see a problem with it. It makes sense, ICly.
My last character was a wizard. When it came to questing here is what he did: He buffed the party fighters out the ass, jumped into extended invis, and then ran around healing people with bandages. He kept a small herb farm and made the bandages himself, which gave him an infinite supply. He had a HUGE healing skill. He could heal just fine while in combat. It was a nice way to contribute to the fight, and saved tons of lives.
I think such characters would become more appreciated in the new system, since having a dedicated healer keeping an eye on you is much more necessary than before.
I will double check to see if bandages work differently.
We might add some kind of check to see if your target is in combat too. Or not.
healing in the described manner is amazingly easy in comparison to what it was before the party change, granted i did not do too many quests with the new change thus far
Quote from: Archon;139292if you have a better explanation as to the slump in player numbers in the last week, I would love to hear it.
Summer break.
Aye. When it's sunny we got a life. I have been boating. With my parents. I don't have a life :(
Does anyone know if the bard song works on non-hostile allies nearby in the new system?
I just thought of this!
Quote from: Meldread;139759Does anyone know if the bard song works on non-hostile allies nearby in the new system?
I just thought of this!
It does, it is specifically pointed out in the announcement for this new update.
Quote from: Meldread;139759Does anyone know if the bard song works on non-hostile allies nearby in the new system?
I just thought of this!
Just tried this the other day, and it does. Any NON-hostile in the area gains the benefit (s).
These changes are so slick. I've now done a bunch of easy and a few easy quests with them. I love how it makes your party stick together. My one complaint is losing people on transitions but I'm sure I'll get used to that.
This indeed forces you to stick together. Which harms questing in large areas where you perhaps wish to divide your group into two ways (gnolls and goblin fort come to my mind now). Yes, it doesn't effect in any other way that you lose the exp because you're not on the range. But it still sucks that you -lose- exp because you use different tactic.
I agree, i am against the XP relative to distance. Just because i'm an archer/caster i shouldn't get less XP.
Quote from: The Beggar;138996Mort, I have no doubt these changes represent a lot of work on your part in an attempt to make the game environment more realistic, and I don't doubt they are scripting wonder, but:
1. They are annoying.
On getting quest - Annoying because of the aforementioned "gather around the quest giver" scenarios.
No Party Invite On DM impromptu events or large scale events, no parties will be able to form, meaning overall XP is reduced and the DM is more likely to leave people out of the end XP. If you can not invite to party, you can't party up to explore, or do non quest PC driven plot material.
2. They take away from having fun.
Reduced XP for distance Bowyers, arcanists (who need to be away from the fight), or other characters who may load the screens slow may loose out on XP. Makes ftrs and other frontliners level faster, and so will support less range of character classes seen in game.
The other two afrementioned as well. The more hoops I as a player have to jump through to get the quests or events moving, the less fun I have. Isn't that supposed to be the whole purpose of the game engine, to take all the little things and do them for us so we can focus on questing and RP interactions?
Sometimes you have to forgoe a little reality and a little 'abusability' to make the game more streamlined, approachable, and usable. The more you change it (game mechanics wise) the less approachable it is to cross over from other existing PWs, and creates and enforces a 'niche' game environment with a steeper learning curve.
Ease of play, Character Advancement, Fun Interactions are hallmarks of good, multiplayer platforms. Please lets not move away from this environment and further isolate ourselves.
In the end, I as a player don't support these changes, and if need be I will vote with my feet and play elsewhere.
+1 on all counts.
I think the new quest system is needlessly burdensome
The range is wide enough to split and shoot, I think.
The ONLY problem I have had so far is trying to follow someone (not sneaking.. but being lead) out in the wilds. Characters with Ranger / Monk speed (never mind transition loading speed..) leave the rest of us in the dust, and there for stranded. I don't know the maps well, and I will tell you there is NOTHING more annoying than sending a tell to someone going, Oh, shit I lost you... come back for me.
Other than this I haven't had any problems on Quests or anything else.
The update really has much less effect on the server than i expected. It does IMO make teamplay more dificult, but asides from that, nothing really chances.
Blake, i'm not sure if it's this or only me being paranoid, but even if you do get XP by killing by range you get less, right? That's what i've observed.
I think that some people need to honestly take a step back and think about what they are whining about.
It's not hard to get a quest with the new system nor out of question to meet a quest giver ICly or glance within a cave or whatnot together before moving on (the non npc quest giving tools)
I play an archer and have tested the reduced XP for range thing and even at a far distance away the reduction is so minimal that it really does not matter.
If you feel you did something in a DM event that earned you XP at the end and never received it, send a quick tell in the DM channel?
The real thing to remember is that nothing changed with this system is as vast and grand as a lot of people are making it out to be. The minimum for quests here is three people, if you have trouble gathering three people to a quest giver or quest tool then I don't think the problem rests with the system, but the player. Everything is just as simple as it was and arguments based off of minuscule amounts of XP really hold no weight.
Well, I don't think we get less exp.
Btw, if you recall old system, correct me if I am wrong here, but you get more exp with more party members, more than being alone.
So in this case, you should get good exp, only your level and ECL determines the rest?
Nah. You still get more xp depending if more people are nearby.
I haven't read all sixty entries, so this might've been mentioned already.
-It doesn't make sense for a stealth character to follow a group around, not engaging in combat, and still receive xp.
-It doesn't make sense that character can now only know what is happening if you see it on your screen. Especially when characters have points invested in the perception skills, they should have a broader field of awareness than this system allows. I think that combat window messages showing that pcs are being attacked nearby should be implemented if possible, to represent that your character can see and hear what is going on despite the camera angle you may use for your game.
Well... I have to say that you should probably learn to move your camera regularly. I never leave it on automatic and am constantly swiveling it to see of things are coming up on my sides or rear.
But yes, if it were possible to add some kind of message like...
You hear the sounds of intense fighting coming from the Northwest.
This might get a bit complicated, however. It also might just lead to so much spam that it's ignored 90% of the time :-\
Gippy's suggestion in the poll thread is great though. Give some kind of textual message when someone passes through a transition. It is so incredibly easy to miss this, especially in the midst of fighting.
Quote from: Nihm;140934I haven't read all sixty entries, so this might've been mentioned already.
-It doesn't make sense for a stealth character to follow a group around, not engaging in combat, and still receive xp.
It doesn't make much sence either, that a wizard gains XP while his buddies kill everything and he sits invisible scratching his wizardy balls, yet if we remove that we will see wizards and sorcerers of level 4 and rarely, 5.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;140941It doesn't make much sence either, that a wizard gains XP while his buddies kill everything and he sits invisible scratching his wizardy balls, yet if we remove that we will see wizards and sorcerers of level 4 and rarely, 5.
*cough* Not all wizards scratch themselves for lack of valor. Sometimes it just feels good. Second, there is still plenty of danger from hanging in back - I've been ganked many times while invis and adjusting my junk by orcs, goblins, panthers, and what not who de-stealthed or saw through my invis or whatever.
Quote from: Nihm;140934I haven't read all sixty entries, so this might've been mentioned already.
-It doesn't make sense for a stealth character to follow a group around, not engaging in combat, and still receive xp.
I'm sorry, but how is this different to how the old party-based system worked? Stealthers and wizards could do exactly the same then.
As it stands, they don't need to actually be with the group now. I had a level 4 at the Targan event recently, who got 20-30 XP for every enemy that was killed, even though he was just in the audience. That said, it was a special circumstance, and experience granted for kills in the wilds is reduced so much as to be negligible.