With the ridiculous loot inflation lately I'd suggest that no character can own more than four magical items at a time. This would increase trading, decrease loot-motivated pvp, weaken rich pcs, and lower the actual applied level of the server (by applied level I mean not the number based on your experience points, which means very little, but the "firepower" consisting of magical items and consumables which is a much more realistic indication).
People might end up having to choose between items and give away ones they won't use to allies, instead of having 53 spell/day items for instance anyone would have only four at most.
Along with this I'd suggest a maximum of ten potions / day be consumed, more than that will slow pcs and decrease their stats, because with the exception of Sahaugin subrace they aren't fishes and shouldn't be able to drink like one.
Thoughts?
Absolutely not.
Putting OOC limitations on the number of magic items is just...wrong in so many ways.
Limitting the number of potions would either make it impossible to complete certain quests and DM quests, and would make PvP next to impossible. It would favor low potion, low maintenance builds to the extreme.
There is no sense in it. I would say no.
I would say no.
If a character is having trouble getting magic items, look about for a faction or group. I have sen so many folks get good magic items because someone else didn't need them and knew they did.
yes it's often faction oriented, but then, that;s why there's a benefit to joining one.
Just my opinion.
SB
Thoughts: lol
This is a low (glug, glug glug Haste Shield DivinePower Glug Sip of the Void Glug) Magic (clicks together the heels of stoneskin/day boots pair one - if it runs out can always switch to second and third pairs as needed -) Server (lays out with a plus two versus most common enemy sword that also casts spells and adds to armor bonus)!
Nonetheless, nothing what you say would change the magic level. If you wish to see amount of magical items reduced, then that is what you should suggest.
I do dare to say, limitin numbers of items like that would simply make people pissed and frustrated. In time being encumbered is enough on it's own if you got too much stuff.
Quote from: Nihm;139389This is a low (glug, glug glug Haste Shield DivinePower Glug Sip of the Void Glug) Magic (clicks together the heels of stoneskin/day boots pair one - if it runs out can always switch to second and third pairs as needed -) Server (lays out with a plus two versus most common enemy sword that also casts spells and adds to armor bonus)!
Magical Netherese portals!
Arcane-based undead!
Magically glowing spheres on every street corner!
Magically transmitted voices in your head!
Level 8 wizards and clerics!
The transferring of magical green glowing disks is the server's favorite game!
Low magic my ass.
I would say no, putting a limit on potions makes an already lethal server close to impossible. Some quests would be just impossible, trolls for instance, last time I went through it a large group was tapped of nearly every potion and spell and barely made it through.
Putting a limit on items is just silly. Not only are 1/day items rare, they are rarely useful and if they are it makes the item far too pricey to own more than one. Plus as someone who plays a potion/wand vendor the price is as much of a deterrent for most people to just power through healing and enchantments.
Lol, what? That would just lead to the highest level or most powerbuilt PC always winning. Money, powerful friends passing you a bag full of Haste Potions etc is the interesting factor in PVP.
However I'd agree that the amount of unrestricted consumables leads to a certain amount of imbalance between what a well-equipped low level but rich Fighter can buff himself with and what an actual caster with his own magic can do. I do have fond memories of the early days on the surface where even the basic potions were rare enough that Labur was a valuable addition to a team because of his auto-empowered Cure spells as much as his buffs.
It does feel like low-magic applies to caster-available spells, whereas loot goes up to L6/7 spells, and even stuff like the Gem Mines loot that's Caster Level Level *nine* Magic Missile items usable by anyone.
The vast majority of consumables seem to be buff potions, buff devices, items with spells that give them temporary stat increases and other stuff good for pure melee PCs. IMO, the counter to consumable bloat is DIFFERENT consumables, not fewer. I would love to see more class-restricted consumables like the Abjurer's Wand (it has 30 charges, Sorc/Wiz only Lesser Dispel and is nigh-impossible to UMD). More high level offensive spell/Cleric spell devices. Stuff that lets your average rogue/sorc/wizard do the same temporary badass trick as the fighter who just swallowed Divine Power and Stoneskin pots washed down with a dripfeed of Divine Favour and Haste. Or easily rip off said buffs with their own counter consumables. There's a lot more buff than dispel loot about.
I'm curious to know how we would even enforce this.
1: Make all non-magical equipment dull grey and all weapons the same skin.
2: ANYTHING with spell charges, +AB or uses/day looks different.
3: If more than four items per PC stand out from the EFU Drones, a Dm Hellballs you.
Thank me later, Snot ;)
I agree with the original poster. I hate how shit comes down to consumable storms and loot whores, and all the people jokingly pushing it aside obviously only have their own self-interest and triumph in mind. Not surprising, but disgusting all the same.
I agree it is ridiculous the fighters are more magical than a sorcerer. Really, i used more magic as Wayne than i did as Gedd. I also dislike the fact buffing up determines the end of the fight. Really.. it should be about who built their character the best, if you are making a purposely flawed character expect him to die!
Fighters, barbarians and all the front-line character types usually get more magic than the wizards: Buffs and lots of potions plus is easier to find a "cast acid arrow 10 times" armor than a "cast acid arrow 10 times" wand for mages only. Low magic my ass, as porklot said, unless we're talking about casters, then it IS low magic.
But i don't think putting such an OOC restriction is the answer, it makes no sence IG, and it's stupid, a man who collects 100 powerfull magic reliques should be powerfull!
I think the solution is to re-orient magic items to wizards, sorcerers, clerics (not like clerics need it, but makes more sence) bards and druids. Instead of finding an armor with 10 uses of acid arrow, find a wand usable by wiz/sorcerer.
I'd also say only the most basic potions should spawn, and the rest should be created exlusively by PC merchants, i'm talking about making Mage armor, all ability buffs, bless, aid potions only, leaving blur, haste, clarity etc as DM loot OR craftable by PC's and sold an exesive prices by merchants only.
I'm all in for low magic- on fighters, but wizards should be.. you know, magical.
I'd also like healing magic to be lowered, not on potions, but on delight pearls and tranished brass wands, and healing crystals, and be changed with scripted items with the same mechanical effect, but less flashy effects. That would be low magic!
How is treated from an IC point of view?
"Oh man, I wish I could keep this magic sword I earned killing a dragon, but I already have two magic rings, a magic bag, and magic boots! Decisions decisions!"
Stupid
Yeah, there is no IC way to explain that ... I also hate the fact that consumables make winners, allowing loot whores to win in all, despite their RPing or fair play ... However, it allows non power builds to prevail... I say Just wait them buff up and dispel them ... KD or take down your enemy before and while he is drinking all his booze ... Just don't duel potion whores and get them off guard ... (although, take that to IC, otherwise it would be just griefing) These are some suggestions ...
Where are there stoneskin/day boots?
I think there are better ways than items to create engaging, difficult and tactical encounters. However, in NWN we have consumable items, and to change from that model to something more fair would require drastic and extensive changes. It's the kind of decision that would have to be made at the start of a server's history. For EFUA, deal with the learning curve of consumable management.
QuoteOh man, I wish I could keep this magic sword I earned killing a dragon, but I already have two magic rings, a magic bag, and magic boots! Decisions decisions!"
There are any number of ways this could be done. It is magic afterall, not science. The more magic you pack into your greedy, item-whoring inventory (all characters on efua love magic items, despite their background or class - otherwise they couldn't survive of course) the more unstable things ought to get. Whoa, my pack is turning pink now and spawning Vorpal Rabbits from another plane now because I have 53 Magic swords crammed inside! I better get rid of some!
I'd propose a system where each powerful item - ie, something that casts a spell/day, boosts a stat, or has a plus two or better enchantment against something - gets a value of One applied to the character. These items should not be so common that assigning these values becomes a task for the DM that makes them.
When the value of a character is four, they get a message that the amount of magic they're carting around is starting to get unstable. Any further artifacts might have some bad consequences like stuff breaking, exploding, etc.
Furthermore having so many items might be attracting attention from something like Magic Eaters.
As for the potions, I am tired of the endless and stupendous amounts that get drunk nonstop, every pvp, every DM event, the answer is always, always drink potions for everything . . . can anyone name one server where potions are drunk remotely as often as on Efua. All this magic should have consequences. A fixed limit of potions / day still allows for plenty of strategy - more, in fact than unlimited, since timing and picking specific buffs rather than "all" becomes important - and plenty of power.
Saying that Dm or Pvp would then be too hard isn't accurate. Dms and players would adjust, PvP would offer the same handicap to your opponent as to you.
Its the potions that make those DM events manageable. Without them, the DMs would have to scale down most monsters to be trivial to most players.
Otherwise without a drastic difficulty decrease, the DMs would have to end every event with either perma-ing, or deus ex machina saving entire parties.
I don't like the idea taking out any IC abilities for a player to meet and exceed the challenges laid before them by the DMs. I'm all for challenging events and spice.
Otherwise, what's the point of playing if everything is easy to the point where anyone can do it, or hard to the point where noone can do it?
I think consumable magical items will become harder to come by with the new banner system. Why I think this, is because the economy of EFU:A is going to see major ups and downs as qoutas are not met and item prices are increased dramatically. I expect consumable magic item cost to make and sell to double, making them even more rare and leading to some awesome quests and RP.
As for the magical items, don't punish the character that went through hell to get them, be it DM quests, PvP, or just getting lucky on a chest. The player that has them earned them, that's just a fact. The DMs try really, really, really freaking hard to see that the server does not become over balanced.
Here's a take on several issues I see being raised in this thread:
1. High/low Magic
Most interestingly what's been touched on here is the "low magic" *wink wink* nature of the server. Low level is perhaps more appropriate. Is the server low magic? I think it depends on whose definition we use. If we look at what the game has to offer - -level 40 casters and epic spells and vorpal weapons and stuff like that, then yes we are low magic.
I ran what I considered a low magic/low gold PnP game for years, and EFU is WAY more magical than my campaign ever was. Players were thrilled to get a few potions and a scroll now and then (like EFU, most of my loot was consumable), and I think after three years of play, the group had two or three magical weapons or armor suits between them all.
Has EFUA gotten a bit out of hand? Maybe, for "low magic/low economy" purists. There ARE a lot of options for potions and wands out there if you want to look a bit, and there are some seriously nice armors, weapons, and the like as well - and not all that rare. Could it be scaled back? Certainly. Change the loot drops and wait for the natural attrition of characters to take the level back down rather than take a heavy handed approach - assuming we all collectively think there is a problem. Finally, think about where we are situated - the isles are a former Netherese locale. There should certainly be all sorts of powerful magic about the place - maybe that's why there is so much magic in a low magic server! Justify it however you like.
2. Disparate loot for non-casters.
I have to agree here, having seen some of the armors that fire more acid missiles than any item I've yet to encounter. Armors and some weapons aside (because they are heavy and thus you cannot carry many), there are STILL a lot of low weight insta-buffs out there that devalue a lot of what casters can bring to the table. The advantage casters have is that their spells last longer than most buffing items, but the disadvantage to casters becomes that if no casters are easily available, most parties don't care becuase they have plenty of buffs already available in their stockpiled items to get them through a quest or two. I would certainly be in favor of more items usable ONLY by casters of some kind as opposed to all folks. This would certainly put some umph back on casters as masters of the arcane and archaic rather than as the "buff me and then stay out of the way" characters they generally are.
Bah balanced? maybe PvP but in no way PvM. Casters are unecesary to buff up, and their offensive spells simply don't help on most quests. I said it before, the spells were designed to kill enemies with 20-30 life, not 50. I've quested as a wizard and didn't help, felt useless. I've quested with buffing wizards and it's like having potions, i've quested with fireball throwing wizards and they simply don't help enough to add to the quest.
Basically, what Profesor death said. Magic is avilable to everyone, i'd like to add that you take into consideration that certian NPC that can cast barbskin and Owl's wisdom for 50 gold. And there is this other in the exiled camp but i forghot what buffs he offers.
Really, i understand in the ruins of the Netherise there will be magic, but usable by anyone? just make it so only wizards/socreres/rogues can use the fancy trinkets, and change the acid arrow armors for acid arrow wands (for example). Egon mentioned a lack of casters, it's because they are weak questwise, and most people quest more than do PvP.
I think it'd make sense if instead they limited potions by a racial magical affinity. Races like Netherese, Thayans, or elves could have an increase in their magical threshold while more idiot races like Chultans and Calimshites could have lesser or negative ones where they have to destroy magic items in frustration on a regular basis.
I think that (and I feel that DMs would agree), that players like MadCaddies, master_oarsman, ignatiev, k_mercer and other players of their calibre can be trusted with magical items and potions, and thus should not be subjected to item limitation. However, I also feel that players such as Kotenku, derflaro, Nihm and Caster cannot at all be trusted with magical items and potions as they seem to use them solely for powerquesting, dry-looting and FDing. This really destroys the unique feel of the server, and I feel that players in this 'category' should be limited to 5 magical items or potions per player.
(http://www.funnyharhar.com/img6/motivator8490383.jpg)
I wasn't even going to notice this thread but it came up on my frequent searches of the forum for appearances of my Username/ past-present character names, and saw core's post.
For somebody who plays as often, and from as many different perspectives as you do, Nihm, you seem to have a dramatically distorted view of the server.
You seem to have missed the PC who died attempting to win a Sip of the Void, and the fact that it was being awarded only on par with a massive horde of extremely coveted pieces of equipment, not one of which could be considered remotely game-breaking.
The Server's loot level is right on the money right now, I think; and characters who are awesome will continue to be rewarded for it. Regardless, I'm sure, of who their player is.
This is a recurrent topic.
While i do agree there is too much magic stuff going around, it is probably on par with the server difficulty. People need consummable to survive, unless they are very good with NWN mechanics (and even then...)
If you accumulate ressources because somehow you don't need them, good for you. If you think that they make a huge difference in pvp, good, that way weak builds are on par with powerbuilds.
Magic items do tend to render spellcasters much less useful, so i certainly would be in favor of more class restricted items, even potions useable only by good/neutral or evil/neutral people.
Adventurer 1: "Hey, are you crazy?? Why the hell did you drop these speed potions on the floor??"
Adventurer 2: "Well, I've already four, and some unknown force prevents me from having more in my bag"
Adventurer 1: "Why don't you sell them then?"
Adventurer 2: "I tried, but all of the people I met have four magical items and that weird unknown force prevents them for getting more also"
lol?
If there are so many potions around. Why is it an issue? Theres a lot more to a fight than consumables, using them at the right time, knowing what to use and when. I've beaten people with vastly more consumables than I have and I've been beaten with vastly more consumables than my foes.
Again the wizard are underpowered argument seems to pop up here. I don't see what the problem us really. If you find playing a sorcerer or wizard in this setting difficult, don't play one. There are many who can and do crush with them.
In fact I almost think this server would be much better off if we just removed Wizard, Sorcerer and Cleric character classes so nobody has anything to complain about >_>
Greataxes should be removed. They do too much damage.
Why isnt this thread locked yet? Stupid suggestion and we all know it.
Quote from: Equinox;139515Stupid suggestion and we all know it.
You really should refrain posting things like that. Both by respect for those who post things, and because you never know when a silly looking suggestion turns out interesting.
LPFF has it, dog. Equinox needs to mellow.
IMhO It’s kinda like communism, it looks good in writing and theory but trying to enforce it doesn’t work well. I feel making consumables and enchanted equipment harder to obtain is only going to make the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. In other words, those that play more and have character builds more suited for factions are going to very much overpower those that don’t.
QuoteYou seem to have missed the PC who died attempting to win a Sip of the Void, and the fact that it was being awarded only on par with a massive horde of extremely coveted pieces of equipment, not one of which could be considered remotely game-breaking.
lol
Rapiers should be removed, piercing damage, criticl range AND finesseble. Too overpowered.
We only need to make them more rare
The dragon is dead now, and we can split his loot: 4 goblin piss ale, 23 coin and a potion of cure moderate... But beware ! Any thug on the way to our house will be ready to grasp a share
Quotemy pack is turning pink now and spawning Vorpal Rabbits from another plane now because I have 53 Magic swords crammed inside!
That's why you would keep some of your items in your bag, and some on your belt... Or in your rented room / guild storage chest.
Btw, I take you also want to limit the spells a caster can cast, right?
Quote from: core;139456I think that (and I feel that DMs would agree), that players like MadCaddies, master_oarsman, ignatiev, k_mercer and other players of their calibre can be trusted with magical items and potions, and thus should not be subjected to item limitation. However, I also feel that players such as Kotenku, derflaro, Nihm and Caster cannot at all be trusted with magical items and potions as they seem to use them solely for powerquesting, dry-looting and FDing. This really destroys the unique feel of the server, and I feel that players in this 'category' should be limited to 5 magical items or potions per player.
I completly agree if I am included on this list.
Quote from: Belgaroth;139552Btw, I take you also want to limit the spells a caster can cast, right?
Eh, they're already limited to like, only 4-5 spells a spell level a day.
It's amazing how a thread that we all know is useless, stupid, or won't take us anywhere, cause so much commotion.
Quote from: core;139456I think that (and I feel that DMs would agree), that players like MadCaddies, master_oarsman, ignatiev, k_mercer and other players of their calibre can be trusted with magical items and potions, and thus should not be subjected to item limitation. However, I also feel that players such as Kotenku, derflaro, Nihm and Caster cannot at all be trusted with magical items and potions as they seem to use them solely for powerquesting, dry-looting and FDing. This really destroys the unique feel of the server, and I feel that players in this 'category' should be limited to 5 magical items or potions per player.
Oh god, Core, have my babies. And we will raise them in a loving home where they will learn that hate is indeed a family value. When you hate Kotenku, at least. <3 <3 <3
If this suggestion ever would go through it would mean the dms would have to redesign EVERY SINGLE MOB on the server.
How about we don't do this and instead enjoy ourselves on a sever which at the moment is very balanced and very fun to play at.
Those who are so determined to change everything in this GAMEworld just because you -can- make a suggestion about it should perhaps think about what you write a little before you do it.
There has been a lot of strange suggestions lately on this forum.
How about next time any of you want to make a suggestion you suggest for the suggestion forum to be removed?
I think that you should first address the problem of 'loot inflation' which will always happen and is not a bad thing. Yet the best way to do this is not by issuing some absurd cap, but by killing off high level PCs that do nothing risky and accumulate tons of stuff in events where their bags cannot be recovered.
The only reason I am not playing a caster right now is because I'd rather have accounts full of dead PCs than accounts full of unfinished PCs. My last most active character was a sorc / rogue archer with (no joke) 4 AB at level 8, and I managed to do just fine. Casters are challenging, fun, and vital to a successful adventure.
Casters on EfU:A are less versatile than their pen and paper counterparts, but this still leaves pure casters powerful as all hell. They really don't need any special advantages beyond what they already have. No, they aren't active on quests, but they absolutely do provide the most efficient way to succeed on a quest. As long as you have a ratio of one caster of any class for every two fighter types, your party can pretty well decimate any scripted PvM situation with ease without using too many potions.
If you want to curb item inflation, play a caster and don't get hung up over the fact that you're kind of just standing there during the fight. The 300 gold worth of spells you cast at the beginning is enough, in my humble opinion. Lonely casters are always welcome in my party. If you really, really want to make yourself worthwhile while we're keeping you alive, entertain us with good roleplay.
My $0.02.
as a caster, the only two thing you can do are "cast spells" and "roleplay"
this is fact and all other items with charges exist only for non-casters to get by
Quote from: Broken Crockery;139596I think that you should first address the problem of 'loot inflation' which will always happen and is not a bad thing. Yet the best way to do this is not by issuing some absurd cap, but by killing off high level PCs that do nothing risky and accumulate tons of stuff in events where their bags cannot be recovered.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;139630THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
Yeah! Gank'em!
Quote from: Broken Crockery;139596I think that you should first address the problem of 'loot inflation' which will always happen and is not a bad thing. Yet the best way to do this is not by issuing some absurd cap, but by killing off high level PCs that do nothing risky and accumulate tons of stuff in events where their bags cannot be recovered.
I don't understand. Who are these High-level PCs who you seem to suggest are getting loot for free?
High level folks? you mean, level 8 or 9? geez, scary.
Joke aside, it's a recurrent belief that some people get more loot than others. The only reason some do is that:
a- they play more
b- they accept and embrace risky stuff, which has more payout.
c- they know when to actually use that loot to overcome tough odds.
d- they are good at teamplay, meaning they actually share loot and not jsut hoard it for themselves.
So it's really nothing to worry about/envy/ criticize/ etc. It's easily feasible if loot is what you're after.
I'm after gold only ;)
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;139641... a- they play more
b- they accept and embrace risky stuff, which has more payout.
c- they know when to actually use that loot to overcome tough odds.
d- they are good at teamplay, meaning they actually share loot and not jsut hoard it for themselves...
Where are the ones who want to make sure they are the ones collecting and take a handsome slice of the 'pack mule fee'? Powerquester loot thieves? Loot muggers? Characters of DM factions that get high wages, and always have their booze supply stocked up? Those of this complementary list also get to high levels and also get ridiculous mount of loot.
QuoteI think that you should first address the problem of 'loot inflation' which will always happen and is not a bad thing. Yet the best way to do this is not by issuing some absurd cap, but by killing off high level PCs that do nothing risky and accumulate tons of stuff in events where their bags cannot be recovered
It's a bit off topic, but I might as well respond anyway. Broken Crockery is telling us that only high levels have tons of stuff (wrong), high level PCs gain experience and loot by doing nothing risky (yeah, they get it for free), and that any high level should be fair game for Dms or Pvpers to kill for no reason and destroy or steal the loot.
Hopefully this can be returned from a bash at high levels to what it was actually about - a more conservative approach toward loot. While my suggestion was too extreme to be implemented, it has generated a few opinions and ideas from other people anyway. The same thing happened when I suggested that Ogre Bandits drop fewer potions (they used to drop a Shield and Haste everytime, among others), the playerbase whined about what a stupid suggestion it was but the Dm team took a look at things and made some changes.
So don't be afraid to get your opinions on the subject out here, the vets will call people retards for wanting to change anything and that's fine, say what you want anyway. Down with the oppressors!
We 'vets' like to call people retards, this is true.
I read this thread.
And I thought a bit.
And I think that scaling back the loot drops might be worth considering.
But nothing this extreme.
A.) Loot inflation is sweet, and not bad at all, and just means that maybe someday a normal group of people might brave the underdark.
B.) If there is a problem with ridiculous loot on PCs that have not earned/deserve it then I am confident the DM team can find a way to address it.
C.) Adding some wizard/ sorcerer / bard spell slot loot in the same regularity as good fighter / ranger / rogue loot would be excellent.
D.) None of you should've gotten offended by my comments because I am sure all of you are playing well kitted, active, and interesting PCs that deserve everything they get!
E.) There is loot inflation? I had not seen.
I'm off topic but...
Quote from: Blake the Boar;139696[Those collection] Powerquester loot thieves? Loot muggers?
Deal with it ICly (especially now that party members can't be spotted). Pick your team of IC friends, not just the next thug standing by kingmans.
Quote from: Blake the Boar;139696Characters of DM factions that get high wages
I don't know which one you're talking about, but you can apply for whatever faction you want.
The thing is, you make it sound like a privilege that some people have more 'success' (loot?) than others, when in fact ANYONE can do the same.
For the record, on EfU, loot does not make success: relationships and achievement does. I've probably had the richest and most well equiped mage on the server, yet he's still a nobody stuck in UD.
Back to the OP: loot inflation. I do think that happens for long lived PCs because they (I) hoard stuff as they (I) respawn. Maybe something could be added on the Ondeath event to 'break' half the potions PCs carry or something.. just a thought. Maybe explosive spells like fireball could actually break some equipement or something...
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;139768... Maybe something could be added on the Ondeath event to 'break' half the potions PCs carry or something...
'Fugued ... Ouch! I lost 2 levels and half my potions!'
Quote.....Yet the best way to do this is not by issuing some absurd cap, but by killing off high level PCs that do nothing risky and accumulate tons of stuff in events where their bags cannot be recovered.
The people who have the best loot are almost always heavily involved in PVP. There is no faster way to accumulate resources IG, and on top of that it will often catch the eye of DM's, getting you even greater reward.
However, it is also a very risky way to get the resources via PVP.
The "high-level no-risk PC's" you are thinking of probably have taken a great many more risks than you imagine.
One suggestion that *could* work is making more loot specific to classes/races/alignments.
While we certainly -do- encourage suggestions and constructive feedback (which this is), this particular suggestion is simply unlikely to happen.
I was enjoying this 5 page topic :-(