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Main Forums => Suggestions => Topic started by: FleetingHeart on August 10, 2009, 07:17:14 PM

Title: Sneak attacks and Bows
Post by: FleetingHeart on August 10, 2009, 07:17:14 PM
Well, here's a suggestion I think the DMs will love. Why not disable sneak attacks with ranged weapons?

I always found it odd that it was possible at all, considering how hard it is in PnP to flank a target by using a ranged weapon (and therefore allow sneak attacks against said target).
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Post by: derfo on August 10, 2009, 07:20:43 PM
i don't get it
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Post by: FleetingHeart on August 10, 2009, 07:37:13 PM
"The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."

Problem is, you can't flank with a ranged weapon. So the only times you should get a sneak attack are when the opponent is Flat Footed (held, knocked down, not attacking, etc).

But in NWN, you get them as long as the opponent isn't attacking you. Which, isn't the way it should be, and has perhaps lead to a great deal of sneak attack archers.
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Post by: Talir on August 10, 2009, 07:46:41 PM
QuoteSneak Attack (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Sneak_attack%22)

Whenever the character makes a successful attack against an opponent who is flat-footed, cannot see them, or who is in combat with someone else, the character's blow delivers extra damage. This extra damage is +1d6 at first level and an additional +1d6 every two levels thereafter. This extra damage is not multiplied in the case of a critical hit.

Sneak attacks can be made with ranged weapons if within 30 feet of the target.

As it is, I find nothing wrong with sneak attacking with a bow. If you can use a dagger to dance into the small slits of a heavily-armored person, you can place an arrow there as well.
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Post by: FleetingHeart on August 10, 2009, 07:51:41 PM
Quote from: Talir;140107As it is, I find nothing wrong with sneak attacking with a bow. If you can use a dagger to dance into the small slits of a heavily-armored person, you can place an arrow there as well.

DnD disagrees with you, however.
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Post by: Crod Mondoon on August 10, 2009, 07:54:47 PM
No thanks. This would gimp ranged characters even further.  A good Ranger/rogue  or fighter/rogue  ranged combo makes a more realistic skilled archer imho, simulating that one shot kill through the eye socket, or into the heart.  As it is, ranged chars have a tough enough time dealing out damage.
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Post by: Mort on August 10, 2009, 07:55:58 PM
Except it's NwN. Oh well. Not sure what you want. We can't modify sneak attack...
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Post by: FleetingHeart on August 10, 2009, 07:57:05 PM
Ah well. Figured it couldn't be modified, but thought it would be nice if it could be.
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Post by: TheWastesAreFrozen on August 11, 2009, 12:49:24 AM
Worst idea I've ever seen on here.
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Post by: Blake the Boar on August 11, 2009, 01:21:31 AM
Eh? Sneak attacks work with ranged weapons in PnP and Neverwinter Nights. You are messing it up with 2nd edition, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, which only allowed the so called 'back stab' with small melee weapons. The name was changed in 3rd edition, for it is not 'stabbing' anymore, instead, it is aiming in fragile parts that cause more harm, be it with a dagger, maul or sling.
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Post by: IxTheSpeedy on August 11, 2009, 02:03:56 AM
If you look at sneak attack as attacking weak spots or critical spots on an apponent then I think it is more reasonable to do it with a bow than a melee weapon even.  I totally do not agree with this suggestion.

Sorry.
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Post by: Equinox on August 11, 2009, 02:11:58 AM
Bowmen are already mechanically weaker than every other pc on nwn. making them even weaker is silly. Sorry but the suggest has no merit.
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Post by: Drakill Tannan on August 11, 2009, 03:02:13 AM
Meh, if an orc is fighting against a tank an archer has sufficient time to observe the pattern and fire at arrow at its crotch.

Besides it's the only way to make an archer that is worth traiding for a fighter. Keep it as it is please.
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Post by: Blake the Boar on August 11, 2009, 03:22:04 AM
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;140192... it's the only way to make an archer that is worth traiding for a fighter...

This suggestion is terrible and for many reasons I don't agree but rest assured it will never happen. However, it brought the old archers discussion. Of course sneak archers are great and all. But you have no idea what a pure fighter level 6 archer can do, with 3 attacks per turn, with 13 damage per arrow (14 with +1 or elemental dmg), 40 crit damage, awesome AB and called shot. Good archers are not only the sneaker ones.
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Post by: FleetingHeart on August 11, 2009, 03:37:02 AM
Quote from: Blake the Boar;140178Eh? Sneak attacks work with ranged weapons in PnP and Neverwinter Nights. You are messing it up with 2nd edition, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, which only allowed the so called 'back stab' with small melee weapons. The name was changed in 3rd edition, for it is not 'stabbing' anymore, instead, it is aiming in fragile parts that cause more harm, be it with a dagger, maul or sling.

Actually I was quoting 3e rules. They state, basically, any weapon can sneak attack if the opponent is Flanked or Flat Footed. However, a character cannot Flank an opponent with a ranged weapon.

And yes, I know full well what a full AB Class is capable of with a long bow. That isn't the point. The whole reason for this was due to the DMs stating they don't want a lot of Archers. This would reduce their numbers while sticking with DnD Rules.

Doesn't really matter though, as sneak attacks cannot be modified. So. Yeah.
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Post by: Blake the Boar on August 11, 2009, 03:42:47 AM
Quote from: FleetingHeart;140198Actually I was quoting 3e rules. They state, basically, any weapon can sneak attack if the opponent is Flanked or Flat Footed. However, a character cannot Flank an opponent with a ranged weapon.

And yes, I know full well what a full AB Class is capable of with a long bow. That isn't the point. The whole reason for this was due to the DMs stating they don't want a lot of Archers. This would reduce their numbers while sticking with DnD Rules.

Doesn't really matter though, as sneak attacks cannot be modified. So. Yeah.

Well, you will not convince me that PnP works in a different way than NwN in this case, and it seems I won't convince you either. Since this will take us or this suggestion nowhere, I suppose the points were given and also the results.
Cheers.
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Post by: FleetingHeart on August 11, 2009, 03:47:22 AM
There are a lot of things about NWN that don't follow PnP. :-)
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Post by: Blake the Boar on August 11, 2009, 04:13:03 AM
Quote from: Blake the Boar;140199.... you will not convince me that PnP works in a different way than NwN in this case...

:)
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Post by: FleetingHeart on August 11, 2009, 04:19:51 AM
Just pointing out that that is kind of a silly argument to make. ^_~
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Post by: Blake the Boar on August 11, 2009, 05:35:04 AM
No need for strong or good arguments in this kind of suggestion. By the way, I hope this thread gets closed now, I always wanted to be the last to post in a closed thread! ha! :D
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Post by: Oskar Maxon on August 11, 2009, 04:46:43 PM
I know it is settled, but I think you're getting stuck a bit too much on the "flanked" part of it, FleetingHeart. Sneak Attack is, as have been said earlier in this thread, hitting those extraodinarily vulnerable places. The part about flanking is that the enemy has its focus elsewhere, and so is not able to protect these places from your arrow, or likewise from the dagger of a backstabber.
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Post by: ScottyB on August 11, 2009, 05:32:32 PM
Sneak attack is working the way BioWare intended it to work in NWN. We are not one of those PnP-emulating servers. This suggestion is not possible, and I don't think it would be desired, either.

Oh, and lock.