So, ok. As was said this (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?p=140601#post140601%22) ought to be discussed in the suggestion thread.
I understand the weapon is powerful. Yes. According to other people's math (//%22http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/dnd/statistics/weapondamage/%22) the scythe hits for 5.462 damage per hit on average. We all know that it's capable of nasty crits (32 max damage, before strength), however.
Compare this to the druid's other options for 2 handed weapons, the quarterstaff and spear.
Quarterstaff does, on average, 3.49 damage and the spear weighs in at a reasonable 4.702 and is also capable of some pretty nasty crits (24 max damage, before strength).
On average, the scythe isn't too far ahead of the spear. Less than one damage per swing. And both are well behind the king of damage, the Greatsword, weighing in at an average damage of 7.315 damage per swing and a maximum base crit of 24 damage and double the threat range (so more crits on average).
Now, it's been stated that Scythes are fair game for druids to use. However according to silly NWN rules, Druids are not allowed to take weapon feats. So, the only way for them, currently, to use a Scythe is to multiclass. This would generally mean taking either Fighter, Barbarian, or Ranger. All of which give them a host of other abilities (An extra feat of choice and heavy armor, rage and d12 HP, dual wield and better stealth, respectively).
Any one of these also grants the player access to Greatswords, which are useable by druids of Mielikki. So, really if you are worried about powerbuilds, that's going to be it right there. Not a Scythe user.
So, I'd propose the addition of Scythes to the Druid class to allow them to stay pure classed and pick up a neat weapon for flavor. Would it increase their potential damage? Yes. Are they going to all use one? Probably not. I know there were a lot of times while playing Oona that I much prefered to have a shield and one hander on so I wouldn't die so fast. Others are going to prefer a spear for style. I personally love spears to death, and would probably only use a scythe on a Chauntean druid, simply because it is so fitting.
What's more, a fully buffed druid will always do less damage than a fully buffed fighter or barbarian. They have a lower BAB and fewer stat points to dedicate towards strength (since they need a decent wisdom score), and in the case of fighters, fewer feats to work with for things like power attack, and no weapon specialization.
One last thing I've just thought of... If the weapon feat requirements for Scythes was changed to allow druids to use them, this would still not allow them to pick a weapon focus in Scythes, since Weapon Focus is linked to the feats the character has. Therefore bringing down the potential average damage compared to a druid built for fighting with a spear.
On the same note, Trident's truly deserve the same treatment. I never understood why they were recently made Martial Weapons by Bioware and thus ripped unceremoniously from the grasps of druids.
I think this happened in what... 1.68? Was odd, to say the least. And to my mind, a trident is a very fitting weapon for a druid of an oceanic deity.
Edit: Guess it happened in 1.69. I remember crying when I had to give up my undead smashing, holy damage dealing trident on Oona :-(
Just take the feat like everybody else.
Cannot take the feat, as explained, without cross classing.
Ah, in that case, I agree the feat should be available. Not free though.
This doesn't really address, but there's a pet peeve I have when people start talking about weapon balance that I think is worth pointing out.
Simple mathematical analysis breaks down when you are trying to evaluate weapon strength because "average damage per second" and "base-strength critical damage" are not the full story. 4x critical on an otherwise not-superb average-dps weapon are better than they might seem because of the very bursty damage they deliver. A sudden 70 damage out-of-the-blue tends to catch people off guard (if it doesn't kill them outright), compared to a slow and steady 9 damage + occassional double damage spread over a long period of rounds. The bursty damage is very difficult to deal with, which makes it particularily good in PvP.
That's all I wanted to say.
And I agree with you whole heartedly, Strife. But x3 and even twice as many x2 crits on a weapon with higher base damage can be equally frightening. That Greatsword is, to me, almost more frightening because it has a greater chance of delivering those crits. And therefore a greater chance of hitting off a double crit :-\
Ultimately this suggestion is not about trying to gain easy access to a powerful weapon. It is about gaining access to a weapon that makes sense to a class, but which that class must leap through NWN hoops to obtain. I think it's silly that a pure druid cannot use a Scythe or even a Trident, when these are very much druidic type of weapons. A Trident, after all, is little different from a spear. And Scythes are the favored weapon of perhaps the most well known and widely worshiped druidic deity.
What about making a feat available to druids that works as an "Expanded Druid Weapon Proficiency"?
It could add:
I threw kamas on there since it makes the feat seem a little more attractive, and it's a farming implement.
Taking the feat would require an override, but it would be very easy to set up.
Will doing so also fix the Custom PrCs? If so, I am all for it.
No, but this would be so ridiculously easy.
I'm not even completely sure what is wrong with the custom PrCs yet, since I haven't seen any bug reports on the matter and I don't feel like going over every last file with no objective.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;140618Cannot take the feat, as explained, without cross classing.
How exactly do you figure? Maybe not at first lvl, but you can certainly build your druid to use exotic weapons. Any class can.
Quote from: ScottyB;140656What about making a feat available to druids that works as an "Expanded Druid Weapon Proficiency"?
It could add:I threw kamas on there since it makes the feat seem a little more attractive, and it's a farming implement.
Taking the feat would require an override, but it would be very easy to set up.
This is very nice!
Yeah, you can take the feat at level 3, 6, 9 ...ect
Quote from: Pup;140670How exactly do you figure? Maybe not at first lvl, but you can certainly build your druid to use exotic weapons. Any class can.
No. You can't. Druids are strictly banned by the engine from taking other weapon feats. Exotic Weapons simply are not an option as a feat to take. At any level. Only when taking a different class. So the druid would have to take a level as anything else at 3,6,9, or a level of fighter basically whenever (free feat).
Quote from: ScottyB;140656What about making a feat available to druids that works as an "Expanded Druid Weapon Proficiency"?
It could add:I threw kamas on there since it makes the feat seem a little more attractive, and it's a farming implement.
Taking the feat would require an override, but it would be very easy to set up.
This would be awesome. Especially if it allowed weapon focus too, since my solution did not.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;140677No. You can't. Druids are strictly banned by the engine from taking other weapon feats. Exotic Weapons simply are not an option as a feat to take. At any level. Only when taking a different class. So the druid would have to take a level as anything else at 3,6,9, or a level of fighter basically whenever (free feat).
Just tested this and you're right. Never realized that before. My apologies!
I'm not 100% sure, but it might be possible to allow Weapon Focus for the weapons covered in our hypothetical Expanded Druid Weapon Proficiency.
Any DMs care to comment about the current idea?
I know that there is a linux NWNX module that allows for custom weapon focus/weapon spec feats... but this is more meant to be used with custom weapons added in the CEP.
As for this, I dunno. But it might be worth looking into.
Would be cool since some are farming tools not really weapons anyways!!
[thread necromancy lol]
I'm beginning to think that we should pull individual override downloads and make one EFUA pack, since a lot of files overlap and some of the downloads include the same files.
If I get the green light for this then I'd make that change, too. They're all basically text files, anyways; a zip archive with EVERY 2DA used by the game is less than a megabyte, so it won't be a monster download.
(http://wickedstageact2.typepad.com/life_on_the_wicked_stage_/WindowsLiveWriter/greenlight3.jpg)
No green light...
awwww
Dont ya think with being able to sleep damn near whenever and almost where ever they want without a bedroll, oil or paying, getting bonus speed and tracking that the druid class has been modified enough? It's already the most powerful base class in EFU maybe making it even stronger would be a good reason to make it an app class?
It's far from the most powerful. The current modifications to the class were made to make them survivable at all. Given their lone nature and propensity to wander the wilds.
Well while ya'll are at it maybe you should let dwarves use a dwarven axe and monks use katanas and rogues use any item their UMD says they can. etc., etc., etc...
All the 'weapons' listed are infact FARMING TOOLS, it seems like a druid might be able to use them. Yet, maybe to powerful? I think it's a good idea personally...
Quote from: Cerberus;153703Well while ya'll are at it maybe you should let dwarves use a dwarven axe
This has been suggested. At the same time this suggestion was made, in fact.
Quote from: Cerberus;153703and monks use katanas
Monks are not ninjas.
Quote from: Cerberus;153703and rogues use any item their UMD says they can. etc., etc., etc...
Rogues can use most anything already. There are a few things that are restricted due to the fact that the gods or other beings/powers might take offense. Some things simply cannot be faked.
Ninja use ninjato not katana. And being there is no ninja in NwN maybe we should just take katana out all together...
It's an EFU restriction that says some things cant be faked, not NwN...
Explain to me again why a paladin can't summon his warhorse? Oh yeah, EFU restriction.
Why is it again that a 100 y/o elf born and raised in the woods needs a bedroll and oil to rest but an 18 human druid doesn't?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Do what ur gonna do...
Why can't I just use a Phoenix Down on Aeris? I mean, really!
I'm for this and agree it would not make druids too powerful, nor that druids are currently the most powerful.
Since Ninjas OMGDON'TUSEKATANAS anyway, why should katanas be removed just because there are no ninjas?
Seriously, Cerberus, your posts are adding less than those of the common trolls.
^^
Let's make Fruit shurikens. Druid only.
100 year old elf is technically younger than an 18 year old human, from a maturity standpoint. But if that elf were a druid, they'd be fine in the woods.
Not everyone can stand to sit outside in any weather and sleep on dirt comfortably. Druids are like -animals- in this regard. They are so close to nature that they are simply more comfortable this way.
Chances are, that elf that was born and raised in the woods was born and raised in some sort of encampment or settlement, whether permanent or temporary.
Point about the monks: Whatever symantics you want to argue, monks are all about unarmed martial arts. Yes, they can make use of some simple weapons (the sorts of things they'd use in their daily lives; staves, kamas [farming implement], etc). Their universal belief, however, is that their bodies are the ultimate weapon, and that through hard work (often manual labor), diligence, and years of focused meditation they can become more capable in combat than a man in steel armor wielding a sword. Mind over matter, so to speak. Swords just don't fit. Any type of sword.
Paladins: Horses do not fit on a tropical island covered in dense foliage. They'd be more of a hindrance than a help. So rather than depend on players (especially new ones who might not realize they'd be doing something wrong) to not be silly about it, it's disabled to take away the temptation.
EFU has lots of restrictions that have no basis in NWN. Like our level limit, our spell changes, our class changes. These are put in place for a variety of reasons including Logical Roleplay and Simple Game Balance. None of these changes were done without serious discussion and a great deal of consideration, and there are very good reasons for them.
If you have any more concerns or questions, however, please direct them to a new thread, as this one is getting seriously derailed.
Find me a canon source that says Scythes are considered Druidic and not considered breach of Oath.
It's not a question of power. A scythe can be a weapon or a tool of mass harvest -- contrary to the traditional sickle which is a tool of acute harvest. This fits the druid more. I dont find that the scythe fits that much. Maybe Chauntean Cleric/Druids...
Druids are able to use weapons that fall under the Druidic Weapon Proficiency feat as well as their deity's favoured weapon (as far as I can remember, at least!), while druids of Mielikki can use any weapon that a ranger can. As soon as I find my copy of the right player's handbook I'll hunt down the favoured weapon quote.
From page 23 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting -
QuoteMielikki, who is famous for the number of druid/ragers who worship her, has more lenient spiritual oaths than most deities that druids worship in the Realms. Druids of Mielikki can use any of the standard armour or weapons that rangers normally use (all simple and martial weapons, all light and medium armour, and all shields) without violating their spiritual oaths.
Quote from: Mort;153735Find me a canon source that says Scythes are considered Druidic and not considered breach of Oath.
It's not a question of power. A scythe can be a weapon or a tool of mass harvest -- contrary to the traditional sickle which is a tool of acute harvest. This fits the druid more. I dont find that the scythe fits that much. Maybe Chauntean Cleric/Druids...
My original suggestion was directed more towards Chauntean druids, in fact.
Quote from: Oskar Maxon;153720I'm for this and agree it would not make druids too powerful, nor that druids are currently the most powerful.
Since Ninjas OMGDON'TUSEKATANAS anyway, why should katanas be removed just because there are no ninjas?
Seriously, Cerberus, your posts are adding less than those of the common trolls.
Oh! I get it OM, your post is an example of a common troll that has no relevant point what so ever except for your opinion.
It's not necessary, then.
What I've done in the past is give the Exotic Weapon Feat on a Chauntean Accessory to make sure they can use their sweet Chauntean scythe loot.
I wouldn't mind doing it again for sweet Druids.
Case by Case basis.
OH and this is getting the lock since it's starting to get personal.