The battlegrounds of these guys are a treasure trove where druids and rangers can walk around and get free loot by picking up from the bodies these guys leave. Significantly unbalancing amounts of gp and potions can easily be acquired.
I don't see what purpose having them hostile to each other serves except to enrich nature characters at no risk.
Alternatively, having them not spawn on the same maps.
Well, for one, it's sort of refreshing seeing other factions fight amongst themselves. I always found it annoying that "Red Guys are on the Red Team and Blue Guys are on the Blue Team" that typically is commonstance in NWN modules.
That said, I haven't picked up such loot hordes, and maybe this should be adjusted. Perhaps by having the loot there "expire" periodically, so as to represent the ogres and orcs looting the corpses of their enemies and brethren?
The last time something like this came up all Orcs had their healing potions removed and no one did the quests for weeks. I would agree with these two factions getting along though since they're both intelligent creatures that live naturally (I assume) on the islands.
Since when do all creatures get along that live near each other? Especially on an island where resources tend to be far scarcer than on a mainland where things can simply move to a new area.
They don't, but it makes even less sense that these Orcs are sending hourly sacrifices in groups of three to the Ogres that are ICly much more powerful.
Makes sense to me, I say leave them as is. If only for the sake of making things a bit more interesting for multiple PC groups rather than solo people running around stealthed.
No need to punish the others for a few people grabbing a few Cure Serious Pots.
I do a lot of traveling in the areas these two forces habitate these days. Honestly, watching these fights has been a WHOLE lot of fun. Three orc warriors are no match for the typical goon squad of mist ogres (2 regulars and an elder) but when they meet up with a larger orc force it's pretty awesome to watch the fight (especially with the improve AI!). Burning ogres, charging berserkers, then a random pack of adventurers jumping into the fray... it was a really epic moment of strife, all just because the spawns used luring tactics.
Definitely think this is a cool feature, not a problem. It makes the world feel alive.
bullshit to the naysayers i love to observe monsters stand in packs of three with a neat formation looking in the same direction
word
Nihm. It's something you do too. It something any stealth pc can do.
Ogre's and orc shouldn't get along. Stop talking shit.
What Garem said. I'd actually like to see MORE hostility, for example Werewolves, Ogre Bandits and Wild Orcs all being hostile to each other, Flayers actually being hostile to Rot mobs etc. The red vs blue NPC fights are cool, so extend it.
Not only does it bring flavour to the server, but it means you can for example take advantage of it when something invis glitches on you by leading it into something it hates.
I suppose the worth of this suggestion depends on the amount of 'free' loot the people cruising about in stealth are able to acquire.
Quote from: TheWastesAreFrozen;144829They don't, but it makes even less sense that these Orcs are sending hourly sacrifices in groups of three to the Ogres that are ICly much more powerful.
The orcs win sometimes too you know. Just depends on the spawns. Sometimes you get 2-3 groups of orcs and only one spawn of ogres. Bye bye ogres.
I completely disagree, they should absolutely not get along. As far as folks getting free loot. Anybody can go for a wander and pick up the few potions and what-not that are dropped. Do you really see Druids and Rangers going around pwn'ing people right and left? I think saying that this "significantly" unbalances things is a bit over the top.
i think any NPC's not getting along adds flavour which is cool. groups of spawns, being static and ignoring each other is lame.
I have seen the aftermath of orc/ogre battles and the loot is average, far less than if you arranged a quest and given the random nature, it would be faster to get the loot doing the quest.
Risk still exists as well. Ogres can hear you moving under invis and make random strikes, which if you auto-react can get interesting, i have also seen them spot stealthed people, so its not a free ride.
I totally agree with the spirit of this post but I dislike the solution you come up with. Ideally, no NPCs would drop loot unless killed by a PC.
Quote from: TheWastesAreFrozen;144829They don't, but it makes even less sense that these Orcs are sending hourly sacrifices in groups of three to the Ogres that are ICly much more powerful.
If the orcs always die, it makes sense that none of the other orcs know what's going on.
Can loot drops change on who kills them?
I didn't think they could, but if its easy and possible sounds like a plan to me.
I know on CoA there was a script where NPC's picked up dropped loot, if the Ogres did this that could also be a solution.
Actually.... I would have originally suggested what Yalta is proposing, but as far as I know such a script is likely server intensive.... however, if it isn't, this would make it far more interesting...
By having said monsters hoard loot, and those who survive the most battles have a good bit of loot. Of course, again, server strain needs to be taken into account.
OnDeath script, on those monsters with spawns in 'hostile' area. Sends out a signal, causing the nearest monster to loot it after combat, friend or foe, to represent the victors carrying their fellow warrior off, or the enemy looting their spoils.
Personally I think that most hostiles shouldn't get along. I have had it before when being chased by a werewolf and a group of orcs. I thought competing hunters generally disliked each other.
Quote from: Dhund;144911OnDeath script, on those monsters with spawns in 'hostile' area. Sends out a signal, causing the nearest monster to loot it after combat, friend or foe, to represent the victors carrying their fellow warrior off, or the enemy looting their spoils.
That would be really, really cool. Totally support this if it's possible.
As a druid, I'd like to say something here.
I wander these mountains daily, after reset, and before a reset.
On average, i get two cure serious potions, and about 75 gold. On a good day, I get five csw, and 200 gold. You get more on a normal quest which anyone can do.
This can be solved just by having a script to clean the area periodically, say ever one, to two hours of remains.
This isn't a problem, druids know this is a cheap way to get supplies, and yes, we've done it in the past. But we do not travel in the mountains more than once per reset, we have other means of traveling to the camp of Gaeseric.
What would be more realistic than what is proposed here is that mist ogres, or orcs, after winning, actually de-spawn, to go back to their mountain caves. Since this isn't viable/wanted, I just say leave as is, I'll support a remains wipe, or even Dhund's suggestion. But what goes on here isn't at all unbalancing. Druids RARELY PvP, and when we do, The folks we PvP are usually folks who are better supplied, since we're rarely out running around for gold in the first place. Hells, we barely even have blur pots, {Well, my guy doesn't} the idea that druids have an unfair advantage here is complete BS.
QuoteOn a good day, I get five csw, and 200 gold
That is a lot. The average quest does not yield that much per person.
Yes, anyone can wander around picking up after monsters. I do it as well, and I think it is too lucrative. If the Dm team thinks it is fine for it to be that lucrative, then fine, people will keep doing it and so will I. I do not care heavily one way or another, but I think some sort of nerf ought to be made in the interests of balance. I do not think that picking up after monsters should be as profitable as killing them, because killing them requires using resources and taking risks.
I mentioned nature characters because for the most part, they're the ones out there with various feats and spells that boost their stealth (plus 18 Hide, plus eight Move silently in the wilds) but it could as well be anything with stealth or invisibility really.
Not sure how this is different than sneaky characters running around the sewers, collecting rat meat from rats killed by folks who were just passing through on the way to Harpies, except that perhaps collecting rat meat isnt an activity that a lvl 10 character might regularly participate in by virtue of it being level restricted. Rat meat is alot more lucrative! One run through the sewers last night got me a whole lot more than 5 CSW potions and 200 gold, with a whole lot less risk than walking all the way up to those godforsaken areas where these Ogres and Orcs are duking it out. I had a Druid with 35 Hide when buffed who got spotted up there plenty, and when it happened, it was usually game over for him.
Dram tends to kill a lot of things while exploring by making them fight among themselves. Usually involves a summon or he shifting from invisibility to visibility, and although it may sound easy and convenient, it has it's risks, however it is incredibly entretaining to watch and some times one finds good loot. Aditionally it allows druids, wizards... herbalists to collect guts and sniews with little risk, i don't think that should be removed either.
So if you are chainging it i ask you to please still make monsters fight each other.
RPwise i can't see why mist ogres would tolerate orcs when they can just kill them, so even if the orcs want peace the mist ogres probably won't care and kill them anyway, because aren't they "selfish and greedy" like the NWN description states?
I can see why a werewolf would get along with wolves and dire wolves, maybe even jungle cats and other natural creatures if he isn't hungry, but i'd rather see them hunting critters; i also can see trolls not killing ogre bandits since they supposedly often assosiate, but other than that, if hummans don't get along with goblins, why should ogres get along with orcs?
Also encourages exploration.
lol Sorry man but that is blatant metagaming in my book. You shouldn't be using summons to bait things together in order for them to fight. In the end, these should be a "natural" occurrence. You are also gaining ill-gotten experience from the monsters' deaths. It's clearly a form of abuse if you are trying to manipulate the monsters to move where you want by way of summoning while invisible.
I don't understand why thought. ICly makes sence if i make a dagger appear, and send it to attack an orc, he reacts, attacking it back, and if the dagger decides to flee, it makes sence the orc chases it, and if by the time it unsummons the orc just bumped into a mist ogre, the mist ogre will try to kill it, because whatever the reason it came to his line of sight might be, it's still an orc, and they don't get along.
It all makes ICly sence to me. If monsters are stupid enought to be lead to PC ambushes and that is not AI abusing, what diference does it make to lead them to NPC ambushes?
Also, while i don't get XP, if i did get XP i feel it would be more than justified, after all it is setting up a monster in the same way a rogue would set up a trap.
It's just another way of killing monsters. It's no diferent from having a rogue set a trap, and making an enemy chase you so it walks through it.
It's metagaming in MY BOOK.
You make the point of a monster baiting humans, but you are fundamentally taking advantage of the system of spawning.
You talk about PCs being baited but that is the point, they are PCs. They can realize that "Oh, a summon just appeared without a caster - he must be invisible". Orc AI on the other hand is: "Enemy. Kill. Oh it gone now. Now I see ogre. Attack." Which is fine if they SPAWN in sight of each other. What you are doing, is using AI to your advantage to take two spawns and drag them closer to each other for your own personal gain of loot and xp.
It is fine if you happen upon a fight, but it is not cool to purposely bait the spawns together. Not that I have any right to say this but DO NOT DO THIS.
Comments Off-Topic:
To interject a few tidbits before I derail your nice derailment...
Drakill: The situation you describe doing I -think- is questionable, but not quite blatant.
Nufferz: Actually... seeing a "summon" alone and assuming there's an invisible wizard nearby is actually in a lot of cases metagaming in itself, because the only reason we know creatures are summons is because the word "Summoned" precedes the name that hovers over their head, unless you happened to have succeeded your spellcraft check on detecting a summoning spell, or some other set of circumstances.
With all that said, I think you guys might want to put that discussion in the form of a question in the "DM Questions and Answers" forum so you can get a proper ruling on if it's AI Abuse or not, before a DM shuts this thread for going off-topic >,>.
Though it's not my place to say this anyway, heh. I haven't been here long, so...
For my comments On-Topic:
I'm all for Dhund's script idea, if it doesn't create a large amount of strain for the server. It's rather a nice touch, if you ask me.
I'm pretty sure this occurs by him summoning them right in front of their face and has the creature run off and SUDDENLY!! it unsummons. Guess what, now they are in view of ogres so it's achieved its purpose.
Also, he likely summons that persistant blade which is also a pretty uncommon creature and -could- be assumed to be a summon in most cases.
No. Mist Ogres are mindless beings who are encrazed by doing mist too much. They would view orcs like any other person: food :).
Yeah, that, aren't ogres orcs and most creatures supposed to have low intelligence?
Jeez, this isn't about how intelligent the ogres are, which IIRC they are actually intelligent ogres.
This is about baiting two spawns together to have them fight and take the loot. I would say it is the same as just baiting AI of creatures in general. If two spawns were meant to fight each other, they would spawn within sight of each other.
Using summons to drag the spawns together to gain the loot from them is just not how you should be dealing with these monsters.