Unlike See Invis, these don't unerringly reveal someone, and they don't even last as long. I'd like to suggest that both drop with the same regularity as Seeing potions, and ESP be made much cheaper to brew. Since it's not even a certain counter to stealth like Seeing is to Invis, the price is rather heavy.
My PC recently tried to stop a thief he could tell was in a room (items vanishing), who was about 2 feet away, in my line of sight and yet I had no way to detect without a none-too-common ESP potion and a lucky roll (15 Spot/Listen vs a buffed stealther with likely 30+ stealth is not good odds unless you have 5 minutes to search the place). If those and Amplify potions were common, it would stop stealth being "hide in plain sight" against anyone but a spotter build, as any PC could get anough detect skill for a short time to ensure an enclosed area is free of spies (unless they are utterly epic stealth powerbuilds :P).
Amplify/C+C items and potions are already too common IMO. These will -certainly- never be made as common as See Invis for obvious balance concerns.
That would be "anyone with spot would be then able to detect every sneaker from the other side of the map" I suppose? Hm. Write it off as another dumb idea.
I suppose what I was really after is something like Dust of Appearance (//%22http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/WondrousItems.htm#dustofAppearance%22), that applies a big Hide penalty to everything in a small area. Yes, you can swap to a torch/cast Light, use a cheap Wisdom potion but by that point they're clear and you've lost them. Something that can be fired off on suspicion of a spy in the immediate area but won't stop someone following you at a distance.
Invest points in the detection skills, just as sneakers invest all of their points and three feats into stealth.
Sorry, but if you don't want to invest in seeing stealthy people then you won't. Just to make it clear, a person typically needs 25-30 stealth scores to be safe from detection by a person without any effort into finding them, let alone those people that do invest.
I actually do have detection on this PC, Ahmed's been the only recent guy of mine who hasn't. The point isn't to be able to detect all stealthers all the time (I had a rogue who used to do that and point them out by glaring), but to be able to see someone who you're aware of enough to chug a potion/use a device but still is still somehow stealthed. For example someone's pointing them out. Or items are vanishing, boxes are opening...
Im a fan of stealth but when someone uses it to rob stuff when they are 2 ft away or are right next to you eavesdropping a whispered conversation the it is lame. Im sorry but their is reconiscance and there is just lame. I completely agree with Egon the redic overpowered use of stealth is pure insanity.
i strongly disagree with cheap or more common esp or amplify pots, since that would probably completely destroy all the intrigue and subtle things i never dip into
People stealing things should be contacting DMs first if it's in an NPC area if I remember correctly and that is a totally separate issue. Stealth is considered a magical ability, as it should be, and if you can't spot someone within whisper range then maybe you should actually put effort into being able to and not expect to counter something that requires a full build focused on it with nothing on your own part.
I had a bard that tried to sell amplify potions, no takers. It's not like they're expensive at like 50 gold each.
The idea that stealth is magical is insane no offense but it is an insult to every person RL trained in stealth and there are plenty of them. Im tempted to find someone from the Army who is an RL stealther and ask if he can use his stealth to be standing right next to someone while they are whispering without being noticed.
Dr D, this is not real life, it's a game set in a fantasy world where the stealth is a magical ability. Unless a DM chimes in with an official statement otherwise, I really don't see a problem with the current status. When you sneak, no matter how high your scores, you are at risk of being seen and caught, often with dire consequences. That risk is a good counterbalance to the effort needed to be a good sneaker.
Quote from: Dr Dragon;146872The idea that stealth is magical is insane no offense but it is an insult to every person RL trained in stealth and there are plenty of them. Im tempted to find someone from the Army who is an RL stealther and ask if he can use his stealth to be standing right next to someone while they are whispering without being noticed.
Depending on the situations. Yes. Yes they can do exactly that. The 'stealthers' in military organizations are frighteningly good at what they do and are capable of remaining perfectly hidden in all sorts of conditions. In a field they could literally be close enough to untie your shoes without you seeing them.
However, it's built into the very class description of rogues that as they advance they are capable of pulling off near magical feats. Stealth is fine. It's a magical world. You can't always make direct and meaningful correlations between a GAME and real life.
For reference, stealth is a semi-magical ability.
If people are stealing stuff in stealth mode, they need to have a DM. Its considered a hostile action.
standing next to whispering people, the prime military function
also:
Quote from: Relinquish;146869I had a bard that tried to sell amplify potions, no takers. It's not like they're expensive at like 50 gold each.
why does it need to get any more common than this?
if amplify is 50 gold from a player then there is no problem at all. It is crazy that 2 pots can instantly destroy most sneakers and make them worry their socks off.
Quote from: derflaro;146893standing next to whispering people, the prime military function
also:
AMPLIFY POTIONS AT 50 GOLD!
why does it need to get any more common than this?
QFT
I don't like the idea of stealth being 'partially magical', but it's not my decision. But: if it is 'partially magical', at least make spells of seeing, true seing and the like give some bonus to spot/listen.
As for the OP, amply pots are common enough not to spoil every sneak's attempt at doing something, but to be able to spot them when you decide you want to.
There are already spells that do that and the items and potions are quite common already. Seeing invisible people doesn't mean you can see someone in tune with the shadows or however you want to describe the ability.
Lets give everyone a pet-dragon too, shall we?
Seriously. Mechanics. If you don't understand them don't make a suggestion which concerns mechanics
This is how it works.
Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
Player rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
NPC rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
As you can see here quite clearly, a roll to detect stealth is made 5 times per second, I didn't believe it when I read it, I thought it was like 3 times/round. This means the detection very much favors the one trying to detect, which means even with half the amount of detection as the other has stealth you have a very good chance of spotting them during the first two seconds he walks past you.
And this suggestion is about making potions of Amplify (+20 listen) and potion of ESP (+10 spot, +10 listen).
Seriously, grow up.
Interesting to know, I thought it was 1 detect check a round. That would make ESP pretty damn good. No need to get on your high-horse, nobody knows everything and the point of a thread like this is you can bring up info you think someone else missed. In fact, it was changed to add +15 not 10 here, so it's better than you even thought. Seriously, don't be rude.
Anyway, as I said, I changed my mind on the idea as it'd stack so well with detect-rigged PCs it'd be crazy.
EDIT: Where have you got that 5 times a second figure from Akke? i only see it as 1 check a round wherever I look.
There are skills, feats, special abilities (//%22http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ex#Extraordinary%22) and spells...
Hide is a skill and IMO should be RP'd as such. It is not a spell like ability and should not be able to be used like hide in plain sight, which is a supernatural ability usable only by very gifted people like shadowdancers.
And in an empty 30x30 room I challenge the best snipers and ninja of the world to untie my shoes without me noticing. Slit my throat, maybe, but I would notice them as the blood started to spill. Big dif between assassination and stealth. When my thraot is slit I notice them and die, when they open the chest I notice them and DONT die. See the diference?
Howland's response to a thread back when stealth was discussed (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?p=82943#82943%22)
Also, I think it's fine with the potions as they are now. If you want to find these guys, buy the potions and invest skill and gear. It's not impossible.
I do not understand why the idea of stealth being semi magical is contoversial when to get high stealth requires magical items and spells that do not exist in the real world.
An equivalent to a kitted out ranger with camo and gear up would be like the Predator alien or something.
And theres my comment for the month.
I think the point the original poster was trying to make (though I may be wrong) is that although, yes a +10 cloak of elvenkind may make you look like a rock or sack of potatoes and conceal a person, when that rock or sack of potatoes started rummaging through chests it would be at least a little suspicious.
This is unwanted and simple mathematics will explain why...
Listen Potion (+20 listen) + ESP (+15spot/+15listen or is it +10/+10?) provides + 35 listen / +15 spot.
This means that for 6 rounds or so, a guy with 0 spot/0 listen can detect ANYONE with below 35 move silent INSTANTLY and can detect people with up to 55 move silent, 30% of the time. This is even worst if the listener doesn't move giving him an extra +5 to detection and the stealther who notice the potions starts moving giving him a -5 to hide/move silent.
35 move silent is extremely rare to have. It usually requires the person to invest skill points, feat, stats, and shift your gear toward maximizing that only to be infective.
It can be countered relatively easily by anyone with 0 investment in skills, stats, feat and 0 gear.
Stealth is a good skill but it does have MANY counters. These counters can't be too common.
Similarly about the thing about the rock being suspicious as it moves, stealth encompasses a vast array of skills that use the environment to mask movement, distractions, timing, patience are all represented in stealth which is simplified in NWN as transparence... but dont be fooled. Same thing with Detect, detect encompasses a vast array of skills to search the environment.
Well said Mort.
Ok, part of my debate is based on NwN game mechanics vs table-top pnP role-playing. In PnP the spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures that are hiding or hidden and secret doors. Typically, a spot check is opposed by the hide check of the creature trying not to be seen, (
I'm not debating the math). Any time a hidden character makes what would be considered a move action it would almost always warrent a reroll of spot checks for any PC or NPC in line of sight or hearing distance to the move action. Manipulating items is generally considered a move action and includes things such as retrieving or putting away stored item, picking up and item, moving a heavy object, opening doors, etc.. A character that uses a move action to activaly try to spot a hidden target gets an automatic reroll and probably modifying bonuses to that roll based on his action.
NwN game mechanics does NOT allow for this type of recheck or reroll, thus forcing the suspicious PC to have to use a hard earned or pricy spell, item or potion to make up for the obvious move action of the PC in stealth mode. Not to mention that once the stealthy PC sees the searching PC hop into drinking a potion stance or casting a spell, he beats feet out of there and is out of range by the time the 'spotting' magic takes effect. IMO this makes spotting magics a bit expensive or a why bother to attempt to use (
except in combat situations).
Granted, for the most part NwN game mechanics cant be helped, so as I said in the first post I made in this thread...
Quote from: Cerberus;146932Hide is a skill and IMO should be RP'd as such.
sure ok