I think there should be a couple lower level solo quests placed outside the zig for those wilder concepts that may be a bit socialphobic.
FYI; Perma'd Vifur due to numerous deaths of a druid by failing stealth or AE because... Well, she never could get past 4th level without failing one or the other and ending up getting killed. Quite frankly as much as I liked her personality and fun I had RPing with her, she was nearly impossible to play due to her NOT being willing to go into the zig. Perhaps the bees quest could be made solo (solo druid would rock that quest). Or maybe actually earn a few XP for healing that silly mule. Or how about putting the pile of wood guy (forget his name) over by Johan's Mill or something...
I can have a PC to 5th level in a few hours solo in the zig running all the available solo quests. There isn't a one that I know of outside the zig, yet close enough NOT to get killed trying to get to it.
I know when I suggested something similar back in the underdark, the response was something like "We don't want to make it easier for loners to level up without interacting with others, this is a group server and we want to encourage player interaction".
However I am in total agreement with the OP. The main reason I quit my stargazer is because people were only leaving the ziggurat to do vrazdn or other quests, and I was unable to go into the ziggurat in order to get people to hang out with. Overall as a whole never going into the ziggurat without dire need makes sense for a lot of people and concepts, but is generally boring and unfun because frankly there is nothing for them to do at low levels and few people to interact with when everyone is just standing on the ziggurat staring at the gates.
Druids and other nature-ish PCs shouldn't be forced to have to enter the ziggurat in order to have fun. It just takes away some of the freshness and challenge of their concept. Sure, some PCs can get lucky and some players can get an OOC posse going and create their characters together beforehand so they always have allies. Having allies is definately important for a nature PC, but they should be able to survive and thrive alone at lower levels without relying on DM support.
As it is now, low level PCs who shun the ziggurat are just going to die a lot and keep having to bug a DM to help clear their body, wasting the DM's time and their own. The only other option really, is to park your ass outside the gates (Which used to be quite common for low level druids) and tag along with questing groups. Again, we touch the point of incredible boredom.
Some new druid/ranger only solo quests couldn't hurt IMO.
Edit : Also, as the OP states - With a PC in the ziggurat you can get to level 4 with pretty much a single run of the solo quests, and with one or two of the group quests you're already level 5. For a nature PC achieving the same result without entering the zig requires them to tag along on the higher end quests, or spamming the lower end ones that are available to them every reset which can take them over a week to earn level 5.
Not every player is super proactive and going to find a wicked niche and a nice group to roll with right away, and I think that helping these players out when they want to try something different and more challenging should definately be done so that they can at least get started on their own.
I have to agree with this post. My latest PC HATES being in the Zig, but is there by default. A couple of small quests outside the zig so nature types aren't forced to conform for a week or more before they go wild again would be nice.
This is one of the reason I haven't created a "Nature type". The fact that I would have to spend at least the first 2 levels in the zig sort of takes away from the concept I've had floating in my head for sometime now.
I hope the DM's will see the logic in this. I don't really see the reason this would even have to be limited by class. Why shouldn't even those comfortable with in the colony do them? Limit them by level, say 2-4 only able to be done 3 times (much like some of those in the Colony now.)
As a stargazer player, I concur. It's brutal playing a nature type if you aren't in a pre-arranged PC party that is planned and started up together.
I'd also like to see the NPC merchant in the Starwood village sell SOMETHING there that draws PCs in to encourage RP. Herbs for 6 gold. Barkskins for 60. Something.
It would be cool for NPC merchants that are a little tougher to reach to have a particular item or thing for sale at a good rate.
Law of Supply and Demand dictates that salesman that are off the beaten path are cheaper. Those easily accessible usually have much higher rates.
Case in point - gas prices in cities and on Interstate highways.
I have to disagree that its hard for a nature PC to survive on his own. But as with ANYONE ELSE who wants to go alone in the wilds, you are foolish to think that you don't need stealth. If you have stealth you'll be fine, at least I have been since I created my stargazer. Aaaaand, it doesn't take a week to get to level 5.
I am of the opinion that you shouldn't -need- stealth to get around most of the more common places, given how commonly travelled they are and how often adventurers and ('npc hunters?') seem to patrol them.
It is almost impossible to play a non-stealthing stargazer or other nature-ish PC at lower levels who are able to actually leave the starwood and travel around the more common places without dying horribly, and that gets incredibly boring. This should not be how things are in my opinoin, and has probably been the reason we don't see many nonstealthing wilderness PCs, which is really a shame because I'd love to see more wilderness-y barbarian/fighters and maybe even clerics.
As it is now, these concepts only seem to crop up when people have OOCly agreed to make similar characters, and this isn't cool because it leads to the same general people playing with the same people, causeing a sort of clique mentality and eventually spurning jealousy from other players when this 'clique' seems like they get more DM attention than some other player, who then causes a big deal over it. I think mixing it up is important and playing with people you don't normally play with is a good way to avoid burnout/boredom. But I digress!
I am definately for anything that makes it easier for people to make more diverse nature concepts that don't necessarily need OOC groupings beforehand to be successful and survive longer than a week. Adding quests for these kinds of PCs outside of the ziggurat would definately be a good start. Maybe looking at some of the spawns in some of these areas would be a good thing as well. (sloped road, lake of steam, outer wall forest, etc.)
"deleted* Nevermind. XD
Vifur had plenty of people she called "friend" and could quest with them if she found them (She was liked :) ). Problem with that was she didn't always get to them or they were already out and about and I'm sorry but I don't usually do tells to people that arnt at least on the same map as me (I consider it meta unless it's nothing about IG/IC stuff). Anyway, her last death she was 4th level, her hide was 23 (spell buffed) and her MS was 13. Just so happened a friggen cave bear spotted a hawk she befriended (she loved hawks), hawk and bear fought, bear got pissy, Vifur's 16 AE failed misserably and she died for the sixth time, (back down to 3rd). Sorry, I just couldn't bring myself to go through the hiding in the dwarf cave and standing in front of the Zig waiting game thing yet again. So yeah, even as fun as she was and as much as I enjoyed her I just couldn't do it again. Had there been a way to retrieve at least a few of those lost XP maybe I would have toughed it out a bit longer.
You're regularly going to die if you stealth around the Isle expecting stealth to make you invisible unless your stealth is in the high 20's/low 30's in both Hide and MS. And even then its not reliable. A move silently of 13 means that someone standing still with even 0 ranks in listen has an over 50% chance of hearing you per check at a certain distance.
A moderate investment in Hide and MS can save your life on quests certainly to keep you from being targetted first in a group, or to do some light scouting, but if you want to be invisible, you need to make a serious investment in gear, and feats. It becomes easier with druids once you have access to wild shape.
As a low level druid though, prior to getting your wild shape, you need to have friends if you expect an easy time. As someone put it best the other day, 'In most parts of the world, the boar is feared as one of the most dangerous of animals. On Ymph, its the least of our concerns.' Loner concepts in the wild are difficult to start out here, but not impossible, so you shouldn't be disparaged if you have a few hiccups.
While I could definitely see why others would consider surviving in the wilds 'brutal,' it's certainly doable, granted you might have to fine tune yourself to stealth or invisibility constantly, knowing what to avoid and the like.
It's a shame that most of the people that wander the wilds won't find each other given that they'll constantly be hidden, but I'm not privy to any immediate solution to that which would even be implemented, so oh well.
I think it'd be pretty cool to have some beginner quests amongst the exiled camp and more easily accessible and desirable goods to make it more of a hub for those that find the nature stuff more desirable, despite that it might split players between the zig and the camp, and that there are a few things in place at the camp already to attract.
Stealth and living in the wilds goes hand in hand imo.
There are areas that don't spawn that much dangerous things that you can stay in if you feel like it.
Saying that there shouldn't be so much spawns due to "npc hunters" and travellers feels just like a way to get rid of the spawns that can be annoying sometimes. But fact is still, if you are living in the wilderness you ARE living in the wilderness. There are animals that would want to eat you for breakfast, lunch and dinner.. Which is why I don't at all think it is weird that you should need stealth to survive in the wilds unless you are incredibly strong.
But the subject was more quests.
I can honestly say that more solo-quests in the wilderness would make it far too easy to level up out there. And it still wouldn't balance anything up if you compare to those that start in the Ziggurat. It would just mean that those people get even more solo-quests to do if they want to go outside the city when they are done inside.
Hmmmm, think this got slightly off topic. I didn't read anywhere about "non stealth"... this was about Low level newbie quests outside the Zig, giving those concepts a way to gain levels the same way the players in the Colony do.
I think most of us know you need to be STEALTHY to survive the wilds, and no one was debating this. At least I don't think so. Also this was not a "How to survive the wilds" demo..
What do you think about adding a few Newbie quests to the Wilds? That is what was to be discussed here.
((OK, sorry.. but this happen way to often. Ask about one thing and end up with a thread of "You need X,Y,Z and it's a piece of cake".))
Quote from: athousandyearsofpain;148308But the subject was more quests.
I can honestly say that more solo-quests in the wilderness would make it far too easy to level up out there. And it still wouldn't balance anything up if you compare to those that start in the Ziggurat. It would just mean that those people get even more solo-quests to do if they want to go outside the city when they are done inside.
Aka... Double exp outside for people who travel the wilds = the same bonus for those who live in the ziggurat because nothing is stopping them from do the quests in the wilds too.
The fact that they've already passed the limit due to all of the solo quests inside the zig would probably stop them.
I'd agree, some more solo quests would be great. I especially like the ones you can still do as a group, like back in Fort Mur with the letter deliveries. Anyhow, going out into the wilderness shouldn't really be done alone unless you're a tough shit. Hook yourself up with fellow players that can help you out.
QuoteHook yourself up with fellow players that can help you out.
That is the main problem, you can't always do this. Even if you have a group or so, right now a wilderness PC who is just starting out needs to either sit outside the bridge or in the starwood and -wait- for other players to come along for them to hang out with, since they can't actually survive the act of going anywhere alone, and their group might not always be on.
The fact is, people rarely travel outside the ziggurat unless it is to quest or to search for random transitions. Hanging out with people in the wilderness is tough shit and until you actually try to make a wilderness PC like a stargazer who can't stealth, you can't possibly understand how boring and frustrating it is, the way things are currently.
Short of sending tells to random people saying "HEY COME HERE SO I CAN ACTUALLY TALK TO PEOPLE" (Which is against the rules btw >.>), sometimes you're waiting for a good hour or more for people to actually come out of the ziggurat, and I'm positive most of our players don't have the patience to park a character and do absolutely nothing while they wait for other players to leave the ziggurat. That is in no way whatsoever fun.
More solo quests and things in general to do with wilderness PCs would be a godsend imo
Quote from: Cerberus;148137Perhaps the bees quest could be made solo (solo druid would rock that quest). Or maybe actually earn a few XP for healing that silly mule. Or how about putting the pile of wood guy (forget his name) over by Johan's Mill or something...
Bee quest doesn't raise or lower the playing area field...
Actually earning XP for healing the mule instead of doing it for the fun of it...
Moving the pile-O-wood collector guy outside the Zig...
None of these suggestions really helps out the people that allow themselves to go into the zig but raises the XP bar for wilder types. None of these suggestions is actually adding a quest, they already exist.
It would be nice if we could get an Exiled Camp start point in the same way as an Inhabitant one, I reckon. But, back on topic... If you're on the Ziggurat, you can get to 4 easily in one session if you do all the solo quests. 5 even if you know what you're doing. Furthmore the loot from some of them is amazing. And yet there are 2 solo or wilds only lowbie quests in the Starwood and none in the Exiled Camp. I would suggest adding a Ranger/Druid only quest similar to the Paladin one in one of the wilds location, that gives armor/weapons of a similar grade, and a couple of fedexes. More XP, but don't have as many. It would still be better to do the Zig ones for city PCs, you'd rack up more gold.
I'm kinda done with this... Just one last effort to get my point across. My concept outright refused to go into the zig (I will not make another attmept at non Zig PC until I notice changes). At 2nd level when she just arrived, she ran down the ramp and out the gate never to go back in. Starting at the Zig at 2nd level, staying true to your concept (without major-meta-cheating) you can NOT get to Starwood or the exile camp alive! They don't help.
PS: Not to mention that your newly arrived PC wouldn't have any clue those places existed without meta-gaming OOC player knowledge.
I think it's acceptable to run the newbie circuit even on a nature PC. That's just me though.
Quote from: Dash;148687I think it's acceptable to run the newbie circuit even on a nature PC. That's just me though.
Yeah, could just say you're exploring/observing/scoutting out the ziggurat.
Looking around, seeing everything, working out where you are sounds more suitable than high-tailing it for the nearest gate into the great outdoors, tbh. Even Druids want to know wtf is going on.
Getting nit-picky now.. Actually she did look around and kinda freaked, (she was socialphobic; doesnt like crouds). She seen the tree (that was at the top of the zig at the time) and when somebody talked to her she ran and started climbing the tree. Thats when she noticed the gate. After seeing the halfblood headsman with a bucket at his feet she jumped from the tree and ran out the gate. People actually ran after her for a short distance, one stopped her at the top of the stairs and blocked them... etc, etc...
btw, she wasn't just druid, she was a wild dwarf.
This topic has been more about describing your character than solo quests in the wilds.
Anyway, it is not needed to have more quests in the wilds, I have no idea why people are complaining, those who play nature PCs at the moment are doing just fine.
Sure it is hard to level up if you keep dying and have no idea what you are doing, but the same goes even if you live inside the ziggurat.
If you want to RP your character as a social phobic mad person, kudos to you, but that means dealing with the XP loss from not being able to enter the Ziggurat. I think it's perfectly acceptable for less socially phobic characters, even nature PCs, to explore the Ziggurat, and talk with people, do quests etc, even if there isn't grass beneath their feet, omfg.
The setting novels and guides often describe druids and their behaviour. Whilst some hate all civilisation, many don't. They are wise enough to understand they cannot get rid of it (at least not quickly).
So whilst druids should spend the majority of their time in the wilds, I doubt the DM's will give you spell failure for coming to the Zig.
As HB says if you want to play a Zig-phobic druid thats cool, but expect a hard playing experience
TBH, I would sign under the idea. And not neccessarily solo quests. More quests in general outside of the Zig.
As it stands now, 90% are within 1 or 2 areas from the Zig.
Maybe instead of scripting new, just move some around.
Quote from: Starless Night;148787TBH, I would sign under the idea. And not neccessarily solo quests. More quests in general outside of the Zig.
As it stands now, 90% are within 1 or 2 areas from the Zig.
Maybe instead of scripting new, just move some around.
I think more quests further out is a great idea.
There are a LOT of quests that are not inside the ziggurat. They still are there to be tried even if you haven't done them you know.. Afaik the dms have added a lot of quests on this server and even if I sometimes can be a questoholic I haven't tried them all.
But there are a lot of quests outside the ziggurat that all nature PCs can do.
And for people who still think its harder to level up as a nature pc, my current druid has been inside the ziggurat twice and he's leveled up faster than any other char I've played the last 7 months.
So to return to my previous post, even if new quests always are welcomed, quests for nature people only are not NEEDED at all.
It is a bit more challenging to stay alive as a nature PC as you have a lot of hostiles around you at all times, but if you manage to stay alive, which is not hard (harder than inside ziggurat does not mean hard), you will level up as fast as other pc's who live inside, if not faster due to the massive exploration exp-bonus you will get for cruising about in every new area you can find.
Not to mention all the new RANDOM ENCOUNTERS that have been added which nature pcs are most likely to find before PCs who live in the ziggurat and rarely leaves it.
+1 to a1000yp
+1 to a1000yp