Stealing. A couple things about stealing.
First, what is it? Taking what is not already yours without permission. Breaking it down, what constitutes permission? Permission is given by an authority. What constitutes something being not yours? You don't have it (posession is 9/10) and no-one else has a legal claim to it.
Second, keep it IG. Now somebody in a certain situation did steal, and they kept it IG. I dig that crazy diamond and I hope our RP goes somewhere from all this. He's at no fault. But there's another guy. Pretty boy with a butter knife. Says he's going to tell the DMs what I did. What did I do?
So if I am told to collect the spoils of war, I'm going to collect them. And when it comes time to split them up, are we all going to play "Let's Pick Our Favourite Loot!" or Yahtzee? Maybe, if I feel like it. See, because that's the thing: there's no server rule that says we have to make a little game out of loot division. Often times people who expended the most are left wanting by the luck of the draw, all the moreso if somebody's a worshipper of Tyche (it has an effect).
So let's say I have the loot and I'm dealing it out. I place down what I don't need or want and keep what I do. Is it unpopular? Probably. Is it against the rules? No it isn't. We didn't all agree to make a big game out of it before hand. It's not even stealing. Why?
[size="5"]Because I'm in charge, I've got the loot, and you're gonna get what I say you can get.[/size]
Owned.
:D Now go tell the DMs how I stole from you. :D
That's why... you just don't let the shady fellow collect the loot. Duh.
This does not match my expectations of an LTS post.
As long as you give a chance for the other guys to know you're keeping stuff, it's all good as far as I know.
My opinion...as long as you roleplay the theft, and have ranks in skills such as pick pocket, and bluff, to support what you've done. If you ignore these things it's not a roleplayed theft, you've simply taken things in a rather OOC fashion. Maybe that's not how the DMs see it, and if that's the case then fine, but I feel if we're here to roleplay our characters then we need to roleplay their stats, and skills, and tell stories with our actions (including thefts), not just pick up stuff without any kind of roleplay attached to it.
freedom isn't free
I'm alright with someone stealing without those skills for a couple reasons. If someone doesn't have PP, then the thief mode that conceals when you pick something up won't hide that person's actions. Along the same vein, someone could just deny up and down without bluff, it's not hard to just say no, but if you try to mislead or misdirect then the skill would probably be important.
Without bluff you can deny up and down, but you'd do it poorly.
The thing here that I don't like is when there's no way to catch the thief, because the game mechanics really aren't sufficient to see the theft, even with the thief mode. It becomes a no lose scenario for the thief since you literally can't prove a thing. The threat of being caught needs to be there for this to be roleplayed, otherwise you're just looking for a no-lose scenario where you can take what's been earned with no way of being caught.
If a thief can roleplay through the scenario and get away with it, more power to them, but taking stuff without even allowing any kind of opposition is really very lame.
It's all fair in the IC world so long as the rules are followed. Stealing from a player in front of NPCs is a pvp action and should require a DM, otherwise they can't react. Kind of goes along with what Cap said about not having any risk to your actions. However, since that's a rule anyway (I believe) then it shouldn't matter what happens ICly outside of NPC sight.
Outside of that the whole 'split everything equally' policy that's rather lame doesn't hold much weight with me either. Then again, I'm posting in an LTS thread where his primary goal is to get attention and up his post count. xD
+1
Well, its all relative, in my opinion. If someone skims a few potions, a bit of gold, or an item or two, oh well. I kind of expect that happens. It's more a problem if someone is trying to walk away with half the haul, then you need to give a chance of getting caught. To me that should be common sense.
And yeah, well how treasure is divided is really an IC thing. The party decides how to handle it ingame, there's really no one way it should be done. The characters can argue about that all they like.
I agree with Cap here. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. I think you need to have the stat's to back it up.
As with any class, your stat's determine how well you can do something. If you want to be a Thief, not just a Rogue, then have the skills to back it up.
I have no problem with IC events, if it be murder, theft, or performing... just have the stats to back it up.
Had a monk collecting loot once upon a time. Accidentally forgot to lay out a couple things I had picked up.... Things I didn't even need... Got an alignment shift for it. Draw your own conclusion.
Thieving is a choatic act. if you do it fair play. Get the paladin to loot.
Don't whinge is you trust the "shady guy you've never met before" or the "nutball barb" not to decide they want/need it more and therefore aren't even going to share it with you.
If you cry about fair looting, go with a team who you can trust IC.
I have no issue with people "stealing" if you want to check all the takes and emote "takes nothing just looks".
QuoteAs long as you give a chance for the other guys to know you're keeping stuff, it's all good as far as I know.
I'm mostly referring to if you're keeping a large amount of items, and/or large items. I may not have seen you pick it up, but I'd expect to notice that you suddenly have a two handed sword or a bag twice the size you started with.
Quote from: Equinox;149738Thieving is a choatic act. if you do it fair play. Get the paladin to loot.
Don't whinge is you trust the "shady guy you've never met before" or the "nutball barb" not to decide they want/need it more and therefore aren't even going to share it with you.
If you cry about fair looting, go with a team who you can trust IC.
I have no issue with people "stealing" if you want to check all the takes and emote "takes nothing just looks".
I disagree that stealing is a chaotic act TBH.
For example a evil baron passes a tax just for the sake of fattening his own pocket and guards sworn loyalty to him collect this tax? Is that stealing? Hell yea is that chaotic? No
A person feels mistreated/insulted by the party and feels that he deserves more loot then these fools so decides to indirectly get back at them by taking/her fair share. I can easily see a worshiper of hoar doing that as a form of ironic punishment.
An LG person needs supplies in a war against Orcs so he leads a force of soldiers to slay the Orcs and take their weapons/supplies. Is that stealing? Yea!
Stealing is neither a chaotic thing nor evil thing in my OP.
The doc has spoken. Or rather, backed my opinions.
This conversation is done.
Personally, I find stealing durring a quest, especially large items that any competent adventurer could see you obviously took (IE: Full plate, Greatswords/axes, Rocket Launchers, etc.) should be emoted if you're trying to nick 'em... unless there's some reasonable reason for them NOT to see it (IE, Magic Bag, Bag of Holding, or similar).
Small things like a potion or a single gold coin are more easy to steal, and thus don't require as much emoting.
But yeah, keep it IC for this. If you steal, play fair and give them a -chance- to spot, but don't give it away. And be reasonable, don't give them a easy spot for a single gold or something that we might not even bother noticing.
And on forgetting... well, it happens. If you got chaotic points or such for it needlessly, ask the DM what they're for, then if it's a case of forgot, I'm sure it'd be reasonable to not get said points for a case of a forgetful mind (At least, OOCly. ICly is a different set of armor)
It's chaotic.
DrD has it wrong.
Most cases of stealing are considered chaotic acts, but some cases may also be both chaotic and good/or evil. (for example... stealing food/gold from a starving man can certainly be quite an evil act)
Claiming the supplies of your enemies, especially monsters such as Orcs after defeating them is hardly stealing either, unless you killed them for the sole purpose of taking their belongings.
I'm actually in a rather odd situation right now with my Banite Cleric.
On every past character I've played, when I looted, I tossed all the crap on the ground and divided it that way. However, on my Cleric I decided to do things differently: he collects everything and then he (and he alone) decides who gets the loot. He claims it's based upon how well those involved performed in battle, but OOCly I've been trying to divide things fairly.
A funny thing I've noticed: I'm so focused on making sure people walk away with something useful, that I end up slightly screwing myself. I even sometimes keep a few of the less useful potions or items (stuff that most people wouldn't want if it was tossed on the ground) to divide on another quest if the loot -really- sucks.
I do my best to make sure everyone walks away with something that is useful, and I hand out things based upon need by the group. The Fighters get the bulk of the healing, the wizard gets the crappy wands to spam during combats, the invisibility potions go to those who can't cast it or who didn't some on the last quest, etc.
I actually have found that I like doing it this way better, even though I typically get less useful / good stuff.
I once tried doing that Meldread.
Then I realized, I somehow ended up with more supplies than everyone else...even if I didn't do anything.
It was absolutely amazing so I stopped.
I also think we might be walking into dangerous territory when it comes to alignment shifts. Stealing is definitely chaotic, but D&D alignment is so crappy with it's black-and-white...
I mean, to give an example: Dwarves hate goblins. Therefore Dwarves hate Gobsquat. So Dwarves plot to slaughter the Goblins of Gobsquat and establish Dwarfsquat. The Goblins of Gobsquat, while evil, are peaceful and do not threaten the Colony. Is it therefore a Chaotic Evil act to murder them based upon racial hatred? I believe most people would say, "No."
Yet, you're clearly killing a peaceful group because you hate them and so you can take their land and other stuff.
Thomas-
Yeah, in the beginning I sometimes accidentally walked away with stuff that should have been given out. Although that was accidental due to the way my inventory was setup. I organized my inventory and keep the first few pages open for loot and I don't have that problem anymore.
things are rarely if ever as clear cut as examples aforementioned would have you to believe them to be. generalizing stealing into a certain alignment is pointless. as such, if a dm really considers an act of stealing, or anything else really, to not be true to a character's alignment i'm sure that dm will act on it as seen fit.
if your character in a position is inclined to steal then steal; get a dm if the rules dictate you should, or if unsure, then ask. why the need to overcomplicate so fucking hard?
Derf stole my heart. :(
lawl
So if a evil ruler/baron invents a tax just for the sake of making money and guards who swore loyalty to him (Lawful) Who enforce this tax and tax the peasantry would be considered chaotic for stealing? Please tell me your logic.
Stealing is taking an object you have no right to. Today, being a bigger brute does not give you the right to an object. In previous times, perhaps, it was.
Your evil baron is just in that grey area. If the people he rules think his rule is legitimate, he is no thief. If they don't, he's just a thug, acting chaotically (for himself) only, but using organized ('lawful') thuggery.
But in the end, stealing is chaotic not only because it goes against what most 'laws' says, but mostly because it goes against a commonplace social respect for private property.
Such a tax is considered lawful, but evil, Dr. Dragon. Its the right of a ruler to institute such laws. The guards, by upholding this tax to the letter of the law are supporting tyranny.
Stealing under such circumstances is still chaotic, but may be construed as 'good' depending on what it is used for.
My paladin will be taking all your stuff. Thank you, come again.
p.s.--it's entirely an IC issue
Quote from: Capricious;149728The thing here that I don't like is when there's no way to catch the thief, because the game mechanics really aren't sufficient to see the theft, even with the thief mode. It becomes a no lose scenario for the thief since you literally can't prove a thing.
BERP BERP BERP BERP... ALERT! ALERT!
WEEEOOOWEEEOOO... ALERT!
Everyone needs to know this. There actually is a way in EfU:A to prove whether or not someone stole from you. Anyone can do it, and it's fairly easy to set up.
In your Crafting Menu, there's a little option called Player Tools. Go in there and set Tool Slot 1 to that little option in there called "Search Inventory."
Now, right click on an empty toolslot, go to your class radial, and there should be a little sword icon with some stars around it called Player Tool 1. Put that little sucker on a quickslot, and now you can search other players just like that bad boy Cail Durris down in Sanctuary! No inventory equipment required!
Now, of course, the recipient of your search can refuse consent, or worse, they can still attempt to hide some of what they have in their inventory. But never let it be said again that there is no way to prove theft on this server. There is, and it is awesome.
So you find 'something' in the guy's pack. How'd you know it's something he picked up on this quest ro whatever?
If you fear theft of precious items, engrave your names on them.
Yes, or dye them a certain way.
Or you can accuse someone of theft and administer a public beatdown. Then take whatever the hell you want. >_>
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;149820So you find 'something' in the guy's pack. How'd you know it's something he picked up on this quest ro whatever?
Use it and see for yourself how it works. It's pretty easy to figure out which quest something came from in EfU:A.
Quote from: Lulzebub;149840Use it and see for yourself how it works. It's pretty easy to figure out which quest something came from in EfU:A.
That's blatant metagaming. Don't do it. Your PC doesn't know what loot there is on quests.
Sometimes it's simply a matter of a PC already having X amount of a certain potion and picking up more adds to the stack. I either end up with extra or sometimes even say to hell with it and toss my entire stack because I'm not sure how many I picked up after adding the coins and all other potions and crap. If I accidentally kept something... kinda like wtf, sue me. But for main items it's hard to say I didn't realize I had the holy avenger before I started collecting loot. Umm.. Yeah ya did! you're stealing you should emote it.
I tend to emote things like [Rummages through his pack] I believe thats everything. If people seen me pick something up that I didn't lay dow they can call me on it, if they dont, it's not really stealing. Because if they did I'd RP oh yeah, now I remember and put down the items. Basically I feel it isn't always the PC's fault it's the players fault (either intentionally or unintentionally). So why gig the PC and maybe even effect his class and all that. If ya see it send them a tell or something...
So I guess for the better more powerful items, yeah they should be punished appropriately for it but if they didn't toss down 2 potions of cure light wounds give em the benifit of the doubt.
Quote from: Meldread;149750The Goblins of Gobsquat, while evil, are peaceful and do not threaten the Colony. Is it therefore a Chaotic Evil act to murder them based upon racial hatred? I believe most people would say, "No."
Yet, you're clearly killing a peaceful group because you hate them and so you can take their land and other stuff.
But they are still evil, so that means they don't attack the ziggurat most likely because they can't. Therefore, it wouldn't be evil to kill them.
Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;149792Such a tax is considered lawful, but evil, Dr. Dragon. Its the right of a ruler to institute such laws. The guards, by upholding this tax to the letter of the law are supporting tyranny.
Stealing under such circumstances is still chaotic, but may be construed as 'good' depending on what it is used for.
1. Not every action has to be chaotic, or lawful or whatever. Imposing taxes has nothing to do with alignement. Anyone can do it. You don't have to be lawful or chaotic, but to be in a position of power where you can do so.
2. Not all rulers are lawful. I don't understand why this assumption is made. A ruler can be of ANY alignement (except maybe CG). His alignement only determines what he will do with his power: a LE baron will bleed his subjects white only if law allows him to, while a NG will respect or violate a law only if it benefits his subjects, while a NE / CE ruler will impose whatever he wants on his subjects.
3. Being lawful doesn't always mean you follow the laws of whatever place you are in.
4. Robin Hood type stealing isn't stealing, since he stole from people who had acquired this money unjustly.
5. This discussion is useless!
Robinhood would have to be CG. Whether or not it was fair to collect the taxes or not, it was law. Robinhood robbed tax collectors that were merely trying to do there jobs. Since he gave his spoils to the poor, he could hardly be called evil, if he was neutral, he wouldn't have bothered, therefore, since he wasn't lawful, he must have been chaotic. Regardless, he was still unlawfully taking something that did not belong to him, the basic definition of stealing.
Quote from: Underbard;149896since he wasn't lawful, he must have been chaotic.
You forget neutral.
I won't mind if another player ICly steals from me. I wouldn't even mind Pick pocket, if it were allowed. But, the player stealing MUST give the others a chance to spot him. A bluff check when they ask, a pick pocket check when looting to represent us "seeing nothing" about the fact he hid the diamond in a secret pocket, etc.
There is a problem though, when you give that chance you risk people metagaiming, you also must establish a criteria before doing the rolls, if another player rolls spot to counter your pick pocket check can you tell him he is wrong and he MUST use search? I dunno, makes sence when he uses concentration to counter pick pocket... but that's extreme, bluff for example, is countered by what? there is no "sence motive" check ig wich makes me think... maybe it should be added as an efuss skill?
Anyway, if you do tell a dude that you are going to steal and you need to agree wich rolls will counter wich, then he simply will loot himself, so game over? And if not, then it could be considered OOC.
If it was i the one being told the other PC would steal, i'd be crying in the inside, but probably would let him, other PCs? i don't have much faith in humanity. Much less humanity i meet over the internet, no offence anyone btw.
Just collect yourself and crush the faces of anyone who touches stuff
Quote from: AfroMullet;149924Just collect yourself and crush the faces of anyone who touches stuff
Though the FroHawk is still > Than the AfroMullet, he does make a valid point.
If you are a badass and collecting, keep whatever you damn well like and if anyone doesn't like it?! CRUSH! And viola! More lewt.
If you suspect anyone has screwed you on loot, take it up IG. I know the engine is a little sketchy, but really...all the tools are there from the player tools to the greataxe of finding out who gankt my loot...where there's a will there's a way. RP and failing that CRUSH.
Skimming sucks. If you skim my loot I will crush you.
Do what you do IG, but don't go emo if someone responds with fists.
I didn't forget neutral. If he was neutral, he wouldn't give a rats ass one way or the other.
hahahahaah how is this thread still happening? I am the puppetmaster and you hang from my strings!
LTS = Lord of The Strings
If LTS touches the loot you can CRUSH, I'm pretty sure you don't even need a DM for that one >.>
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;149844That's blatant metagaming. Don't do it. Your PC doesn't know what loot there is on quests.
It doesn't take an 18 Int to figure that that a salt-scoured cutlass didn't come from the Webbed Wood, or that a Chitinous bodysuit wasn't found amongst the Mist Ogres.
Use your damn brain, dude.
In the future, please consider all possible role-play avenues available to characters to accomplish the sun-blindingly obvious.
My undersized brain tells me loot can come from anywhere, picked up from adventurers venturing in ruins, swamps, harpy nests, temples, beachs, etc.
Don't make up excuses to find a way out of obvious metagaming.
Don't see any problems with suspicion when you have seen certain kind items around beaches or somewhere, and then suddenly one of such appears at somewhere unusual. If one has been suspicious of someone and then that happens, I'm not surprised of questioning or doubt at all.
Quote from: Underbard;150005I didn't forget neutral. If he was neutral, he wouldn't give a rats ass one way or the other.
I wasn't talking about neutral referring to good and evil, but referring to law and chaos
More beatdowns and murders over quest loot please. If someone is particularly useless or potentially a thief is in the party (or you didn't get enough loot), carve that bitch like a turkey and lay his shit out. People keep acting like the point is character development and not rocking everyone else out in PvP.