Daze only effects people level 5 and below currently. I propose that when it is cast by an actual caster and not by an item or wand, this cap is removed. Daze can be ridiculously handy, and it is hardly ever used because even the monsters on low level quests are above level 5 for balance reasons.
Since the spell has a relatively low DC, It lasts for two rounds, and the target can still move and heal or drink a clarity if need be - I hardly see this as something that will break the game, and opens up some diversity in spells that a caster could choose.
Thoughts?
A cantrip shouldn't be this powerful, I'm afraid that I respectfully disagree.
I concur. It's not deadly either (for players) - since under the effect of Daze effect one can drink a potion - clarity, for instance.
While we're at it, I'll also suggest that ray of frost should do 1d6 damage per level.
Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;150836A cantrip shouldn't be this powerful, I'm afraid that I respectfully disagree.
Powerful in what way? The target can still move and quaff potions, and it only lasts two rounds. Coupled with a low DC, all this spell really does is prevent someone from running or attacking. For two rounds. 12 seconds. How is this so powerful?
Because preventing someone from running or attacking with a cantrip for even 2 rounds can be devastating when the caster is out of most useful spells.
I'm not for it, even though I play a wizard.
Also there's little chance the engine can distinguish between a cantrip between an item and a caster, and remove the level limit from one, but not the other.
Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;150841Also there's little chance the engine can distinguish between a cantrip between an item and a caster, and remove the level limit from one, but not the other.
I wouldn't have suggested it if I wasn't sure it was easy to distinguish between the two.
Not the biggest fan of this. Daze can be deadly in PvP as is, and it is a cantrip meant to be a small useful but somewhat worthless chunk of magic.
Then we'd be essentially giving out a level 0 hold person to every wizard for quest stomping glory.
Quote from: ExileStrife;150856Then we'd be essentially giving out a level 0 hold person to every wizard for quest stomping glory.
The DC would be what...14?
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;150857The DC would be what...14?
And what are the will saves of the generic idk gnoll?
Also with GSF: Enchantment some people would have the saves up to 17-20
These are people who have spent two feats to get there saves this high. They ought to be more dangerous regardless.
Never going to happen, ever.
This might be the most stupid suggestion that's been made this year.
Clearly people should try understand the game mechanics before making suggestions.(I think I've said that before)
Perhaps next time you'll suggest that "Light" is given aura-damage around the caster? lol
Fireball should damage other orcs.
Taking into account the few spells wizard have, having the option to daze a monster for 2 rounds 4 times/day would be good. By getting the monster levels to level 5 and over at almost every quest, daze becomes useless.
I agree PvP wise, it should remain as it is.
However, i'd really like it to be usable against "something". Can i ask why the monsters have such a high level in low level quests? It makes sleep and daze nearly useless, i think that should change.
Make enchanters have useful spells for questing that just aren't buffs, IMO. >_>
Right now, I can really only see them be useful in PvP, as is, with hold person.
And buffbots are treated like dirt. :(
Oh yeah, i've complained at that too since i jouned EFU:A
But DMs don't really seem to care about mechanics if isn't PvP.
Drakill Tannan, you are completely oblivious to how strong spells already are against NPCs and dumb AI.
How about offsetting the removal of a level cap by reducing the DC by 1 for every 2 levels the target is over level 5? This is kind of a "double tax" since higher-level targets should have naturally higher saves in the first place, but helps out PCs who maybe made WIS their dump stat, or NPC/monsters that weren't built properly.
Yeah. And lets make 60gp 25 charge wands of daze be able to have 50% chance to disable any CR 5 monsters n` higher. Even a 10-12 DC is useful. Especially Will.
No compromise <_<
Please remember to be respectful of other posters and not call their suggestion idiotic or stupid. It's not nice and me doing it from time to time is enough jerk for 1 forum.
You're forgetting that suggestion is for when it's memory-cast, not item-activated. The wizard/sorc has to actively choose to prepare/burn a low-chance Daze over a 1d4+1 damage ping.
When put that way, we're allowing casters to diversify. Otherwise there's nothing to prepare but Ray of Frost/Acid Splash/Electric Jolt/LIGHT, so they'll spam their little damage cantrips for a guaranteed 2 to 5 damage each (assuming no vulnerabilities). And because Daze still requires a DC, it always has a chance of failing - unlike Ray of Frost (assuming no resistance).
I mean, Electric Jolt doesn't stop working on creatures over level 5.
You cannot compare a damaging spell to something that immobilizes the enemy in some way. They are cantrips, the first spells wizards learn before they can do much of anything. Before they can cast a simple, single magic missile. Cantrips are not meant to do much.
Being able to move, drink, and retain AC (biggest perk to immobilizing a target!) hardly seems to be "immobilizing." Since PCs are likely to be in groups they'll already be using walk speed to form up, anyways, too.
Regardless of whether or not cantrips "aren't meant to do much," some cantrips are still able to do something throughout a PC's career. It's wasteful game design to include class features that "expire" or, when a choice is available, are clearly inferior to other features; players enjoy being able to make meaningful choices, and the presence of something that could be cool if it didn't suck only serves to frustrate them.
I'm willing to wager that if this is done, then 5 months from now no one will have managed to make Daze into something to be feared. I think I have some money to collect regarding the Storm Domain, while it's on my mind.
Perhaps a compromise?
We have a trial period where the Level block on Daze is removed. If this leads to wildly out of wack accomplishments on a PC CASTING DAZE AND NOT FROM A WAND, we can replace it.
Just a thought.
Does anyone realize that when you gain levels as a wizard you can take more spells that effectively do the same thing if not more effectively against any level creature?
It's not like you lose the ability to cast daze, you just can't use it on something that is powerful. But when you are low level it is a pretty useful spell- now suddenly you become level 5 and it is useless? No. It had the exact same use but when you face that gnoll elite instead of the lowly, normal gnoll you use a hold person if you are really pooping your pants.
If you are going to make daze capless, then you will basically give wizards five disabling spells per day that can take down any NPC's ability to attack for a significant amount of time. Who the hell is going to take ray of frost when they can just prepare that awesome daze shit?
how about a compromise where we don't make dumb daze suggestions when we quit a million times already
Just lower the average monster levels to 4 IMO.
That would totally destroy the challenge.
I still fail to see how this makes Daze awesome in any way; it just makes it a somewhat viable alternative. It's like taking the boot off your car by replacing it with a flat tire, IMO.
I don't think anyone who's said "everyone's just going to do X now" has ever been right on this server, so why not embrace a potentially interesting change for once? It's not like we won't be able to fix it if wizards start crushing people with DAZE.
Hmm. The problem really is that if something's dangerous enough to warrant a stun, it's probably L5 or more in any given quest. There are of course a few exceptions. Even buffed the hell up, the DC's low compared to any other stun spell, and the effect's annoying but not killer. If this and Sleep were uncapped, we might see Enchanters than can do more than just Hold Person/Confusion up the wazoo. There's a real shortage of decent PVE spells in that line, that let you display your PCs abilities.
As Thomas says, it can always be reverted. I'd like to see more stuff trialed like that, rather than discussed abstractly on the forums. Go Go ScottyB. :D
it's a fucking cantrip. let's make scare more powerful too because i can't use it on the boss chief of orcs
i cant scare dragonz buff
You really shouldn't have said that, Nufferz. That's all I've got to say - for now.