Can we apply Box's suggestion to Sleep?
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;150895Can we apply Box's suggestion to Sleep?
Because you're playing an elf?
No.
I just feel like it's appropriate.
I vote no on this one.
When comparing this spell to COLOR SPRAY, which works regardless of levels, I do not believe this is over powering at all.
No.
I have no idea what the suggestion is, but I know thomas is after teh powah. So no.
Color spray doesn't allow you to one hit kill level 8 PCs.
Put a level 8 PC to sleep, and you get a coup de grace. Bam. Dead.
Not Happening.
Quote from: FleetingHeart;150909Color spray doesn't allow you to one hit kill level 8 PCs.
Put a level 8 PC to sleep, and you get a coup de grace. Bam. Dead.
Not Happening.
PCs fall asleep. They don't get COup de Grace
As much as I'm against this idea as well (at least for the moment), I would point out that there is no coup de grace on anything higher than level 4, or against PCs for that matter, unless you've all fangled with the engine.
As described here:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Coup_de_grace
Sleep is 3 rounds+1/caster level and is a targetted AoE.
Color Spray is 1+1d4 rounds and is a Cone spell.
Can noone see a problem that may arise in higher level?
Orc BESERKERS disagree with empowering this spell. They don't want to be in the same situation as ORC WARRIORS. This spell is still useful, even at high levels.
a level 0 and 1 spell being as useful as a level 0 and 1 spell should be whoa ho ho we can't have this, buff please
gonna beat the fuck out of you dead horse
We discussed this once already. It was decided no, and I was the one who originally brought it up. Way too powerful.
I think a better idea would be to make more quests with buffed-up level 4 spawns where use of sleep would be entirely appropriate. Mist dreamer's quest anyone?
Yeah, just lower the monster levels.
What would be the point of having monsters if you can just sleep and CDG them?
Heres an idea put people to sleep by b eating them in the head with a club rather then lame spells.
I still don't see how this is applied from an RP standpoint.
"Ohohoho, I am level 5, and your spells of sleep and eye-inducing decay shall not harm me, foul enchanter!"
"Fucking shit."
Nobody gets tired after level 5, idiot.
The higher your level is, the manlier you are. The manlier you are, the less that kind of stuff affects you. Real men don't take shit from anyone, including spells. Like Brian Boitano.
It's a mass disable spell. It's extremely useful for low level pvps and low level quests.
Its normal that it becomes useless at higher levels... obviously. If you notice, mass disable spells that are not restricted by levels are ... stonehold , level 6 druid spell, and mass charm , level 8 wizard spell. Those were the ones that came to mind, stonehold isn't really since it has continuous effect but mass charm is the same deal... and as you can see, its quite high level magic.
Stinking cloud, level 2. Cloud of bewilderment level 3. Choking powder/flashpowder.
Not really high level spells.
Each of the spells you listed carries a degree of risk should you engage the person caught inside in melee combat.
Its not the same thing.
I'm pretty sure Stonehold lets them attack too. And Mass Charm only stops them from attacking you in PVM, and in PVP they can still drink potions and stuff, so it's really just a higher level, longer lasting Daze.
Sorry, why are they being used as examples when they are totally different spells from sleep? Here's the thing about sleep - As soon as you hit them they wake up, after level 4 there is no more coup de grace and there is no coup de grace against PCs ever. While these other spells will all run their duration, sleep only lasts a few rounds and as soon as you hit them the spell ends.
Why are we comparing them again?
There are so many advantages to disabling a PC until you hit them with damage that its not even worth listing them here.
Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;151027Each of the spells you listed carries a degree of risk should you engage the person caught inside in melee combat.
Its not the same thing.
So does sleep, So I think it is the same thing Alyssara.
I don't even know what we're argueing about anymore. Sleep will disable them for like 3 rounds + 1 / caster level or until pretty much anything hits them. Keep in mind the DC is lower than hold person and every other spell listed here for 'comparison'. And for those spells, you can actually hit them while they are disabled!
So really if you're going to compare it to other spells you should at least pick ones that are relative.
Also to touch this point -
Quote...(Snip)Sleep is useful in low level pvp and low level quests
Is just plain inaccurate. I can think of maybe three low level quests with enough monsters that have less than 5 HD to make this spell worth using in anything other than a cheap questloot wand, monsters generally are higher level/have their HP jacked up for balance reasons because they are fighting groups and stuff.
It -can- be useful, but to say it is 'extremely' usefull would be like saying ScottyB is an 'extremely' hard worker and I am 'extremely' polite and and 'extremely' easy to get along with!
ExileStrifre is right in that, if NPC are afected by sleep and coup de graced then sleep becomes incredibly powerfull. However, if i don't recall wrong, there were some creatures who you could cast sleep on, but would not suffer from coup de grace... i could be wrong about this, but if it is true, then making more monsters this level could balance it a bit, it makes them sleep, but does not put them in risk of death, also it doesn't mess with PvP.
Can the coup de grace be modified? or is it hardcoded?
As a mage player, I have to say that sleep is pretty useless in my experience. Even at low levels I don't bother to take it anymore because it seems every time I was in a situation where it might have been useful, the monsters were immune for one reason or another (level, and/or immune to mind affecting spells).
It's a lousy spell to cast compared to other L1s, since it doesn't scale at all well to multiple targets despite being an AoE. It is rather useful though to fire off from the many items that cast it, into a combat full of your L5+ chars. There are enough things under L5 that I like having Sleep gear on my PCs.
Oh, and Mort? You missed Fear as a L4 mass disable. How can you miss Fear? It's *fun* to send Orc Berzerkers fleeing in terror for a change of loincloth :D.
Finally, Sleep affects 4+1D4 HD of creatures. As far as I can tell, a L5 would need to make a save. A L6 would need to make a save if the die roll was a 2 or more, a l7 if it was a 3 or more, and a L8 if it was a 4 or more. That would be like an extra save. Not exactly overpowered.
It's a lousy spell to cast compared to other L1s, since it doesn't scale at all well to multiple targets despite being an AoE. It is rather useful though to fire off from the many items that cast it, into a combat full of your L5+ chars. There are enough things under L5 that I like having Sleep gear on my PCs. As for GDG, it only works on something under 4HD anyway. Remember stuff over 5 HD can be sent to sleep via onhit sleep properties.
Oh, and Mort? You missed Fear as a L4 mass disable. How can you miss Fear? It's *fun* to send Orc Berzerkers fleeing in terror for a change of loincloth :D.
Finally, Sleep affects 4+1D4 HD of creatures. As far as I can tell, a L5 would need to make a save. A L6 would need to make a save if the die roll was a 2 or more, a l7 if it was a 3 or more, and a L8 if it was a 4 or more. That would be like an extra save. Not exactly overpowered.
The thing about sleep that makes it different from Mass Charm, Fear, Stonehold, or any of those others is that by level 8 or so, you can cast it like nine times or something. If sleep were more useful at higher levels, then pretty much any wizard could turn into a mass knockout machine.
Anyone here ever used sleep wands from invisible on goblins and ogres? Sleep is a freaking level 1 spell that is area of affect and can amount to a massively high save if invested in GSF. If you want to use a disabling spell like that, level up to achieve i dunno:
CONFUSION/FEAR/WHATEVER THE HELL ELSE
You know what sleep does? it isn't just about disabling the opponent for that one attack, it is about disabling them and getting a ridiculous amount of time to prepare for that first hit by chugging massive pots.
"guys i can't smell out a significant use for a spell instantly so buff it"
please stop shitty joke suggestions with outrageous arguments
Quote from: Lulzebub;151098If sleep were more useful at higher levels, then pretty much any wizard could turn into a mass knockout machine.
Ever see Ahmed on the original Orcs 1? I used to use buffed, SFed Colour Sprays to stun half a horde. A wizard CAN be a KO machine with that. Doesn't last as long, range isn't as good, but way more effective.
The problem isn't that the spell can be used in a niche scenario, it's that it doesn't have a use outside the niche. Good game design makes an option valuable by making the options useful except in a few narrow applications (resistance to a damage type, for example); or alternatively, making all options only useful in specific situations. (However, that alternative becomes bad game design if players take turns being useful instead of being useful together.)
So we have some spells that are always good to learn, and some that require someone to be exceptionally talented and almost precognizant to make them valuable. That is the problem that results in suggestions like this.
sleep let's you get off the CDG, it is not the same thing as color spray. color spray also must be cast at a closer distance which does put the caster in the mix of the fight potentially causing some trouble for them.
Although...
- CDG only works on level 4 or lower NPCs, changing nothing where CDG and Sleep are concerned
- The more creatures in the AOE, the fewer will likely be affected, because if you roll a 7, and there's three level 4s in the AOE, you can only affect one (the first creature takes up 4 HD, leaving 3 HD that can't be "spent" on anything available)
- Sleep can affect friendlies; the AOE can be made to affect any HD-worth of non-hostiles, separate from the HD-based pool intended for enemies
• So it gives you a CDG against all level 4 or lower monsters affected while still putting those other monsters to sleep.
• Now you're talking about rolling but what is being suggested is to remove the cap making rolling irrelevant to those affected.
• And yes it affects friendlies but so do color spray, fear, confusion, sound burst, stinking cloud, etc. Sleep is just a level 1 spell.
Rolling is still relevant because higher-level creatures would use up more of the HD pool. Sleep already affects few creatures as it is. It could have an area-wide effect and not affect more creatures, so its size/range benefits are negligible.
Stinking Cloud, Cloud of Bewilderment. I expected that predictable response. They are not the same. The AoE stays there and you have to go in it to be affected. Cloud of Bewilderment's range is so small as well, making it ... rather limited. Stinking Cloud is DAZE which can be countered by anyone with a clarity pot.
They REALLY cannot compare. Confusion n Fear are good examples of mass disable spells.