This ai is bothersome as it allows monsters to defy the rules of the game. An example is when knocked down by spell or feat they may still run for miles, unlike a pc who is stuck and most likely going to die horribly in the same situation.
With the horrible path finding from the last patch attacking an archer or mage even when they're prone or dazed means you risk the AoO march of death should they defy logic and bolt off. I don't think removal of this "run away" ai would make archers less effective. Goblin Archers seem to do fine without it.
The main problem with this AI is that the archer or mage can run even in a situation where a PC cannot.
If I were to suggest an AI to replace it. I would say goblin rogue ai (when forced into melee they pull a dagger or shortsword) and give each a melee and ranged weapon.
The run away is hot stuff imo. I like it.
Quote from: Ebok;158581The run away is hot stuff imo. I like it.
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While I admit it may be frustrating to have certain feats bug out and not work, I have to say I love that archers and mages are smart enough to not stand there and get the poo beat out of them like retards.
Change tactics. I can think of a number of ways off hand that you could effectively shut them down and kill them with little trouble.
Is there no way to fix the absolutely ridiculous fact that you can't KD the enemies that need to be KDed the most? The AI is fantastic but this has always bugged me.
I think having these NPCs run away is better than having them just stand there and die. Even if it is "broken". PC mages and archers always run away. That's what lets them survive and act as force multipliers in the battle. If you can disable any ranged threat by walking up to it, well, that's kind of a lame tactic.
Wait... am I missing something here?
I don't mind the fact that archers and mages run away... but how are they immune to knockdown and stuff? or what else are they immune to when they shouldn't be? Apologies for the questions... just want to get this clear >,>
On that note, thread hijack of the day: Have AI mages pick multiple targets. (Observatory comes to mind). Thank You.
If you knock them down they simply get up *immediately* and run while prone. Or in some cases enter hide in plain sight. Pc mages are easily made prone with feats/spells and killed Exilestrife, lots of monsters have KD and can chase but that doesn't mean pc's can jump up and run away from them!
I know they are broken, but that broken factor sadly gives them the edge they need against intelligent players. NPC AI is dumb as hell and needs little perks like this.
This bug is probably being treated as a feature because there's nothing we can do about it anyways.
How about this:
Since being knocked and stunned is pretty much the same, save for the animation and the AI cheating itself out of knockdown and that inmunity to mind spells prevents stunning...
Add an option to all players who take the "Knockdown" feat, allowing them to use the regular knockdown OR a modified EFU:A version that instead stunts enemies. This changable through the player tools menu. Same check is applied, only the effect is changed.
This way, most NPCs (or some?) will become vulnerable to this effect. Maybe some will not because they will be inmune to mind affecting spells, but i'd rather have some, than none.
Thoughts?
Too much work for very little gain.
This sort of thing gives some added value to range builds/non-melee-ers, too. It is weird, yes, but fixing it isn't worth the effort at this point, I think.
It is not an immunity. From what I understand, the AI overrides the sit down command and instead forces the archer to run a distance or for a lenght of time. I believe the archer is knocked down after running away, but cannot recall for certain right now. I am against its removal as well.
(Note, the run away function seems to be triggered before the knockdown one. The archer doesn't run away when you use knockdown on it, it runs because you are drawing near).
All these are pretty much assumptions based upon what I have seen in-game.
Sad to hear that nut. Guess i won't pick the useless feat then.
Oh well i tried.
"Knockdown is useless." Are you out of your mind? :)
On PvM it is... you know, due to the bug...
... lol
It may be bugged against creatures, but it's better that way else it's too easy to take down archers and mages.
As for knockdown being useless... arghhhh!
[whimpers at the statement of knockdown being useless and crawls into a hole where he cries an ocean of tears bringing forth the next new flood, he pilots the only ship capable of sailing the saltine ocean, forever weighted down by the guilt and need for vengeance for Drakill for destroying humanity by making this statement.]
KD is FAR from useless
Just ask anyone who's been on the reciving end of a KD durring PvP or PvM
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;158632How about this:
Since being knocked and stunned is pretty much the same, save for the animation and the AI cheating itself out of knockdown and that inmunity to mind spells prevents stunning...
Add an option to all players who take the "Knockdown" feat, allowing them to use the regular knockdown OR a modified EFU:A version that instead stunts enemies. This changable through the player tools menu. Same check is applied, only the effect is changed.
This way, most NPCs (or some?) will become vulnerable to this effect. Maybe some will not because they will be inmune to mind affecting spells, but i'd rather have some, than none.
Thoughts?
I actually like this idea. I don't think players should have the capability to choose whether knockdown is a stun or the actual knockdown effect, but if some type of flag could be set up on creatures with this AI where they would be stunned for a round when knocked over, that would circumvent the problems related with what would otherwise be an awesome feature. If we could come up with some scripted knockdown alternative that would work on stuff naturally immune to stuns as well, even better.
That said though, is there anyone around that codes in new stuff anymore?
I don't think there's any way to see if a creature "should have been knocked down but wasn't and is still running" so that we can apply a stun instead. I mean, the bug is that a hardcoded feat that we have little to no control over isn't working right.
Orc Shamans and Guerrilla hunters, are immune to KD (a feat that would be specially effective against them), and you character, with 29 discipline is not... DMs know it, and nothing can be done about it... Live with it and KD something else...
lol
I like how two threads have been made on this subject by players and dms refuse to change :)
I like how the DMs being unable to change something automatically means they refuse to change it in your funny little world. I just want to crack your head open and look at all the fun ideas you have.
I am pretty sure they said it can be removed they just cant change it and want to keep it for authenticity but w/e
OH NO A LOW HP MONSTER IS IMMUNE TO KD, MAYBE WE HAVE TO USE ANOTHER TACTIC TO KILL IT.... HOW LAME! KD I SUPPOSED TO SOLVE ALL PVP/PVE ISSUES!
putrid_plum took the words right out of my mouth. (Minus the caps)
How about you just give them straight-up immunity to Knockdown, justify it by saying something like "This orc has wide feet and exceptionally strong legs" in the description, and then we never have to revisit this issue again?
Lol what are you on plum, one of the reasons you wanted to quit like 2 months ago was because of the lame AI >_>
Why are we still making such a big deal out of this? Giving them immunity doesnt solve anything, they arent actually immune, and you CAN knock them down. I've done it all the time--just not when they are moving. Even then they fall down, but they still travel the distance, which is meh.
They arent immune, sometimes they wont fall down, get over it.
Quote from: Lulzebub;158986How about you just give them straight-up immunity to Knockdown, justify it by saying something like "This orc has wide feet and exceptionally strong legs" in the description, and then we never have to revisit this issue again?
Best solution presented so far... And I MEAN IT!
Griff, that is in no way accurate. LOL
Just to remind you all, some creatures, due to mechanics, are virtually 'immune' to disarm too ... Makes you wonder...
Ranek is wise. Why make a big deal out of nothing.
Dont sweat the small stuff; everything is the small stuff.
Quote from: Damien;158979I am pretty sure they said it can be removed they just cant change it and want to keep it for authenticity but w/e
Quote from: ScottyB;158905I don't think there's any way to see if a creature "should have been knocked down but wasn't and is still running" so that we can apply a stun instead. I mean, the bug is that a hardcoded feat that we have little to no control over isn't working right.
I do
not like being ignored.
(If you mean removing the AI... having some enemies that run away instead of idiotically standing there with their spells/ranged weapons when you close in is not just flavorful, it's added an important tactical consideration to our quests.)
To be fair, Knockdown is a little overpowered. If you've ever been a victim of Knockdown spam, you know what I mean. Functionally, you can become completely unable to take any actions as long as you keep getting hit. God save those poor monsters.
Quote from: ScottyB;159013I do not like being ignored.
Hahahaha, rawr. Down tiger.
Not until I go on a banning spree.