Shit happens. It was short notice anyhow. I'm sure with a little preparation things would have gone a lot better. Anyhow, thanks to everyone who participated, the DM who oversaw our conflict, and good luck to all on your next characters.
An E.P.I.C event.
It was great fun! Excuse my ignorance, who's your PC?
it was Johnathon Farrow.
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;159196it is Jonathan Farrow.
Sassed by a bot? Oh, the indignity.
lol and yes this WHOLE EVENT was PC driven... I feel a little sorry for the DM that had to login to see us standing on the bridge ready to take the whole Colony on :D
Great fun, heart racing as usual loved it, it never gets old.
Kudos to everyone that was involved and to the (Semi-retired dm THAT LET THIS HAPPEN much love x)
Yeah it was pretty sweet, my favorite part was when he threw that fire bomb. Didn't see that coming.
I know ey.. I thought we got catapolted or however you spell it lol.
I was surprised I wasn't completely pissed off that I eventually perma'd because two Stygian cavalry spawned on my face.
I guess it being 5 AM helped.
Thanks for fun!
Sounded fun *sighs*
My favorite part was when they all died but got tr'd for some reason making the consequences for attacking town almost nil save for the best amongst them who remained dead.
Yeah nice to know when you do something big and crazy there is no need to fear death because TR is coming your way for all!!
Also, DOCKS REAVERS!!! LOUD AND PROUD!!
Quote from: DaWarBeast;159377My favorite part was when they all died but got tr'd for some reason making the consequences for attacking town almost nil save for the best amongst them who remained dead.
Did the TR actually happen? Because I happen to agree assualting the city or powerful NPCS should risk perma. Perhaps there was a reason DMS TRD like a bug or they ment for NPCS to be in subdual mode.
Don't talk like you know what happened if you weren't there.
Yes, some of the PCs were TRd. This was, among other things, because the DM in question had to deal with too many things at once to be able to keep this a fair encounter (especially when coupled with the lag).
Besides, the actual immediate cause of the fight eventually turned out not to have happened either.
I was there.
Quote from: DaWarBeast;159377My favorite part was when they all died but got tr'd for some reason making the consequences for attacking town almost nil save for the best amongst them who remained dead.
Ugh.
If I let the six to nine PCs who died all force perma in an encounter with NPCs that was weighted in the favor of the NPCs, I'm pretty sure the server would be complaining that I was being unfair. In fact, despite the TR's handed out, people still complain it was an unfair encounter.
Thanks for that.
forcing people to perma when forwarned there actions would lead to such? IF according to Sternhund he didnt perma people because theyd "Complain" I am going to complain right now saying people shouldnt be handed out TRS When they pursued a suicidal objective (attacking a colony owned by the most elite merc company in Old Port) Furthermore I think I should complain because after winning said battles against a NPC gang they were able to get the funds to post a 2000 gold on me and more money on Kershof. a random street gang somehow got the means of acquiring this large amount of funding in the poor and downtrodden docks with supposed huge gang wars..........I did not complain in this event. The point is when pursuing IG actions that risk PERMA people should embrace it.
The TRs were fair. I really don't see what the big deal is about this.
the "random street gang", IIRC got 10,000 gold from house Sharboneth, months ago. Wise investments (lol) could easily make that money multiply, even after spending a lot on equipment.
Also, what gives you the idea that the Docks people are poor? They are located in the DOCKS. ships. Trade. Moooney. The bulk of wealth is probably just concentrated in a few key places.
can't win, stardog
It was a difficult situation to handle and given the odds on either side, I think the end result was fair for both sides.
In Sternhund's position I would've been paused for a good half hour getting all RTS with those NPC's and working out what to do.
Sternhund made it interesting, hats off to him, imo.
Quote from: Sternhund;159445Ugh.
If I let the six to nine PCs who died all force perma in an encounter with NPCs that was weighted in the favor of the NPCs, I'm pretty sure the server would be complaining that I was being unfair. In fact, despite the TR's handed out, people still complain it was an unfair encounter.
Thanks for that.
How so? Were they forced into the situation where they had to assault the gates? Was there no option to simply walk away from the foolishness? Many die to lesser mistakes and don't get a TR.
Hell I only died a couple of days ago to doing something stupid like attacking someone in the colony proper. I died for that mistake and learned a lesson about going up against the odds.
Edit: Oh and Porkolt I was there.
Quote from: DaWarBeast;159503How so? Were they forced into the situation where they had to assault the gates?
You so don't know, man.
I was the impetus for this 'attack' with my PC, Jackin Hoxie, and I must say a large part of it was dictated by an OOC desire not to just kill the only two Stygian PCs that I'd seen up in the mountains randomly. I sort of operated under the impression that I could probably escape anything, that the NPCs would /want/ to make a deal (as NPCs have also taken hostages in the past, and other NPCs/PCs have paid them) and that a full 1/4th of all the Stygians on the island would not be present for this negotiation. The event was fine, really, from an IC perspective -- excepting the the cavalry which were impossible to detect and managed to 'appear' within seconds of the right moment to attack us and totally cut off a retreat which could've allowed all the PCs not to die. Throughout the event I was confused between what was ooc timing, and ICly timing. Like when Kedrian took forever and a day to bring down Fishes, ICly, I'd have kill the Stygian aspirant and tossed his head onto the walls because that's what I said I'd do -- but I did not want to kill this player because it was taking a long time to navigate things with NPCs. I was too nice oocly when I should've been more brutal. It is a shame when niceness is rewarded with overwhelming death. This is a trend that happens with all my halflings. While the IC stuff was fine, OOCly this reinforces in my mind that taking risks, leaving people alive, etc is fraught with too much risk compared to taking the easy way and jumping to FD. My PCs story is over. There's no learning experience for him because of this. He's dead. So OOC, all I can learn, is never to let people live? That I'd even get into this mindset is one of the reasons I'm taking an extended break.
Had we killed the two Stygians when they got subdued in the mountains, as some PCs suggested, Fishes would've been released for lack of paperwork and the fact that there was no PC Stygians to deal with him. Most of us still would not even be known as criminals.
Compared to: We did not kill the Stygians. We took them to the gates to get Fishes back, because ICly we were worried about him. We expected that we'd all become wanted criminals. We were okay with this because it allowed three PCs to live. Instead, we all got butchered by NPCs.
It is okay to have strong feelings about this event, it was not perfect, but it also was not wildly implausible or bad. Accept the IC consequences and don't be jaded to the ooc consequences of taking risks. If you've gotten to that point of being jaded, like me, take a break.
= (
Well, not FDing people has always greatly increased the risk of your character dying. But it also greatly increases your reputation as a stylish player. Choosing to keep your enemies alive and prolong stories and conflict at the expense of 'winning' is probably the defining hallmark of an amazing player, and often leads to the best finales and events (like the one currently in discussion).
TBH, although Jackin died, he's still more of a memorable character for it than those that didn't and will probably go down in the EFU:A annals as a great hero/amazing villain (depending on the IC point of view). Honestly, coupled with a climactic death, that beats FDing a couple of lowbie Stygian PCs for fleeting IC material gains.
Short-lived yet epic characters have been your style since day one Gip, I'd be sad if you no longer wanted it that way! Hope to see you back soon.
My point of view on the subject is probably a little biased, as it was my character who'd been captured, but the way I see it, It was refreshing to see someone actually attempt to break someone out of prison for once, I've never seen that happen on any RP server. I think that what Gippy did was really great, especially since it involved more people then just killing the stygians would have.
Also, no-one really told Sternhund what was really going on, and so he had to do what he thought best with what limited information he had.
I think everyone needs to chill out and stop whining about how surviving characters have placed bounties and are hunting you down and etc. etc. If you've done something big enough to warrant a bounty or whatever, then that means you've done something awesome to encourage interaction so more players can get in on your story. It's not a bad thing, it's a good thing.
And honestly Gippy, the way that turned out was pretty badass. You had a stygian burn to death, for goodness sake. I would trade all my burnt out half-ass endings for one like that.
Gippy, we have already discussed this in private. Your character had ample opportunity to walk away and have his objective be fulfilled. During the negotiations it was my objective that no blood would be shed, while the character of the Stygian Armada would be expressed. The Armada's character was shown by them showing up in greater numbers as a reaction to seeing their men be threatened. We all know the Stygian Armada are loyal to one another foremost, and so this was portrayed.
Specialist Kedrian was following the character of the Stygian Armada. He was uncompromising to outrageous demands, while willing to be open to agreeable solutions. He would have traded the two Stygian PCs in exchange for Fishes + up to 1500 or 2000 gold, or similarly valued deals. The way Jackin Hoxie was threatening to kill his hostage in ten seconds unless Kedrian made up his mind would be seen as absurd in his eyes. Kedrian was not ready to get on his knees to beg and plead for Hoxie to show mercy, nor was he willing to lose face for the Stygian Armada by cowering to the time pressure of a criminal.
If Jackin Hoxie was more patient and reasonable in the negotiations, he could have walked away alive, and with lots of gold!
That's not what happened. Hoxie killed his hostage, Hoxie's men killed the other hostage, and the Stygians reacted according to how they should react to the death of their brothers. They attacked.
With regard to the attack, it turned out to be weighted in favor of the NPCs. It is my style as a DM to always be fun-oriented. I don't really care if some actions do not make sense. I want people that log onto our server to enjoy themselves. Thus, after the carnage was over and there was a conclusion of 8-9 PC deaths to the hand of NPCs, I concluded this was not going to be fun for many participants. I offered a TR to those who were not you or the two Stygian hostages. Those who would accept the TR would assume they were subdued and follow due course, whether it be jail or escape. I believe this was the best option.
Some players advocate I should have turned it into a slaughterfest and kill you and your supporters without remorse under the pretense that attacking the city is a serious action and consequences must be portrayed. Other players feel that NPCs resolving the situation was not appropriate, when a DM was specifically requested to handle the situation, and when no other PCs to my knowledge even exist that could have handled the situation. Some players feel the TR's were too generous. Only a few seem satisfied with the thought processes and outcomes that occurred behind an event that I was asked to perform without any sort of preparation.
Of course, there are always going to be critics. Let's say I follow the advice of some players and simply declare that all those who died would be permadead without compromise. I'd be labelled as an unfair DM. People would cry out that "niceness is rewarded with overwhelming death." Such comments are destructive and false. As illustrated here and in private, I wanted to cooperate with you while staying true to the Stygian Armada. I repeat, you had the option to leave negotiations with lots of money in hand. You could have reaped major benefits. It was the result of your character actions that this outcome came to be. Your character did not play the right cards. Thus, the event was not the fault of an unfair DM, it was the fault of in-game actions.
Either way, Jackin Hoxie ended on a high note. He was glorified by some, criminalized by others, and his actions had interesting repercussions in the immediate future. Really, I don't know what better way to end a character.
I for one, support Sternhund here.
Just my quick opinion but i've always thought it's better to go out with a bang in an event like this rather than hang around and die to something less fun. No I wasn't there but I'd give any of my pcs to be involve in something cool like that rather than give up through boredom/quest death. Have fun while it lasts and hopefor the best really. It sounds like a difficult decision by Sternhund but I say respect his choice.
Com'on people, it's more fun to die in that kind of event than to die randomly.
And it's a natural choice to perma in those events where your PCs are deeply involved, whereas passerbyes probably should be TR/subdued so that they don't get killed in something they aren't so deeply involved in.
Go Stern!
More: this kinda thread is tearing down what seemed like a grand event to those like me that missed it.
Damn, qui complaining about those DM events, or don't participate in them. How'd you figure these threads are recieved by DMs who thought they were providing fun for those involved?
Even if for some reason a DM can't balance an event properly, who cares? It's something original, tailored for you, that makes the server alive. You'll have plenty of other PCs, and they'll all die anyways.
Last thing: if you're really pissed for some reason talk to the said DM/person in private, not in public. It's a loose-loose situation if you forum this stuff.
Although i was only in half the event-
It truly made no IC sence at all that the legion was allowed to live, less the stygians. It also made no IC sence for Magon to let Fishes live, but i'd rather not kill a PC if i can avoid it, reason being, it'sn not about wining, is about having fun.
It bugs me a little that the charcters than fell to the battle are the ones rewarded with more interaction, than the characters who escaped with their lives, however considering it is usually 1 or 2 who manage to escape, i completly agree with Gippy's choice of letting then live. It adds to the fun, and as a player, i would react not betraying Hoxie to thank him for that.
Asaulting the colony gates is clearly suicidal, but it is awome nevertheless. Now, PCs shoudln't do this often. but they shouldn't be banned for doinig it unless a DM has 12 NPCs on their backs, because if not it's the DMs who move the server, not the players.
All PCs should have faced IC councecuentes, in fact they should all have been permaned.
But let me ask you something, how is that fun?
THe legion should have ended on the attack to Hoxie and the others, but how is that fun at all? I know, if we would have won, the only one dead would be hoxie and farrow (Becaue a DM made a gargothian's chosen specifically command us to, only) And only after giving them chances of escape, like i did when i thought we were winning (why did you think i cut off the chase on farrow?).
That is fun, that PCs are all killed due to overconfidence is not. Even if it is fair.
Sternhound, i wasn't on -your- event, but i support what you did from what i've read here. Kudos to you.
I would once more like to express that I agree completely with my own conclusion of this event, that half of the opinions in this topic are misinformed, and that, though a few mistakes were made by Sternhund, he handled the loose ends admirably. I was very happy with the huge amount of freedom I was given to decide on what was to happen to my PC - the only person I could reasonably blame is myself.
I think the main reason Magon let Fishes live is because it's kind of lame to turn a friendly spar into a "Oh and we don't like your friends so we're going to sacrifice you."
I can't believe anyone would complain when someone else gets something nice from a DM for any reason whatsoever.
Oh, wait a minute. Never mind.
Sternhund, you did a good job and don't let anybody tell you differently.
Edit: Oops double post.
I've played on this server 2-3 months now and this is probaby the first I've been involved in such a cool conflict. My perspective: Hoxie is a legend, and a ballsy PC to immolate a Stygian on the bridge. Having never seen Stygian cavalry or really any mounted NPCs on this server, it was a great exciting/shit-my-pants moment when a load of them flanked us.
Honestly, the event was a blast (pun unintended). It's lame to see bystanders complain that TRs weren't fair, because I'd bet that to a large majority of those involved, it was a shitload of fun, as opposed to if all of those PCs that were killed were perma. If every action like this lead to overwhelming death and perma, there wouldn't be people risking their necks for fun stuff like this.
Props to Hoxie and the DM.
So Gippy is forced to perma and his cronies/companions are given the option to TR in spite of the fact they were involved just like him....I am going to cry unfair and say Hoxie deserved a TR if all of his other companions who fell to stygians could get them. and I recall awhile ago when Vlad and other rebels/savages assualted the gates and ended up loosing yes some were killed in battle and permad while others lived and had trial. The end result was mostly everyone being permad and a person exiled while another enslaved. I think it makes total sense to expect harsh consequences when attacking a gate!
STFU DrD. Nothing you're saying is a valid argument.
There was a difference, however. Hoxie died on the bridge surrounded by Stygians, and a couple attempts to get to him failed. Most of the other PCs who died in the attack, such as Farrow, were recoverable due to the Rebels killing the Stygians that stood over the corpses. Maybe I'm missing a Rebel who fell on the bridge, or somewhere else, I'm just saying what I personally saw.
After the initial attack the Rebels rallied and went for their fallen comrades, the only two I saw that I would say they didn't get to were Armando and Hoxie. The rest they could have dragged off. Bailey was standing along the west wall, and I saw near all the fighting from there since that's the way they all ran when the Stygian Cavalry arrived.
Honestly, this whole thing is done and over with, I think it's time to move on and play the game already.
If you say so Porkolt
Waite what?! Stygian on horsies?
calm down holy shit
Quote from: Porkolt;159546STFU DrD. Nothing you're saying is a valid argument.
The Valid argument is simple attack the gates or take PCs hostage dont be suprised that the end result is perma. That has been my argument forever. Considering all other instances were pcs did crazy stuff such as. Attack the gate or attack a powerful Shadow dragon named Etorix have died. I infact remember when Murien and Keel attacked the gates and Murien died and was temporary Permad. Telling me to STFU and that my arguments of PCS doing risky activity getting permad are invalid arguments are great ways to start a flame war. Explain to me how my arguments are invalid I have not told you or others to STFU so lets keep the tone civil. I have pursued risky activities and I have died to them and that makes me glad. In all other instanes were people have attacked the city and the gates often perma has been a consequence for said action its been that way since OLD EFU I just find the sudden change to be odd.
-DRD
I got only one thing to say. Doubt any of you could have handled it in any other way, that wouldn't have caused this exactly same kind talking as it did now. How about you just go with it and next time throw stones when you're absolutely sure you've made the world perfect.
You know if you're one of them.
Please Lock This Thread.
This seems rather derailed!
This topic is interesting as it gives both side of a medal in a mature manner with miscommunication being the main thematic.
People should discuss it since miscommunication happen all the time and its important to be able to communicate intelligently and without resorting to insults or whiny threats.
I'll lock it however if people have nothing else but insults or flames to contribute with a forum ban for repeated offenders.
There is way too much antagonism at time over nothing, really.
Let me start by saying I was not part of this conflict. That being said, I feel like there are a lot of assumptions being flung around here.
One of the main assumptions being bandied about by the "everyone should be permakilled" crowd is that there is no conceivable reason this NPC group would spare people that attacked them.
Quote from: Sternhund;159521Specialist Kedrian was following the character of the Stygian Armada. He was uncompromising to outrageous demands, while willing to be open to agreeable solutions. He would have traded the two Stygian PCs in exchange for Fishes + up to 1500 or 2000 gold, or similarly valued deals.
Now I could be mistaken, but it looks to me that the DM running the NPC group in the event established them as a reasonable lot that obviously see the value of hostages for the purposes of trading and such.
Quote from: Sternhund;159521Those who would accept the TR would assume they were subdued and follow due course, whether it be jail or escape.
Sounds like the DM decided to act on this facet of the NPC group, which already stood to further the quality and depth of roleplay by setting up RP consequences that weren't merely an abrupt ending of everyone's story, and then took it a step further and allowed the opportunity for escape for some clever sneaky PCs.
The effect of this seems completely sensible to me, but more importantly it brought the dramatic conclusion of this story to focus on the instigating PC, making his death seem more significant, and not lost in the morass of a mess of other PC deaths.
Obviously it is also sensible for the NPC faction to not extend the sub-dual cutesy to the PC who murdered their brethren right in front of their eyes.
In the final analysis the thought process of NPCs is determined by the DMs, players can only guess. If there is a question about the motivations of a particular NPC, I suggest discussing it with a DM to relieve confusion.
And for that matter, "fair" and "not fair" are mostly superfluous terms, since we all have differing notions on what is fair or not fair; but part of asking a DM to oversee an event is agreeing to accept their judgment as fair. To me it is not "fair" to a DM to begrudge the judgment afterward when, especially in a case like this, the consequences ultimately rendered were known beforehand as a possibility.
The TRs were fair as core has said, the event was one made purely by PCs with a DM having to login because one was required, I do not understand why the people most upset about this were the ones not even involved.
Well said, Aria.
Really guys, how lame would it be if doing something as bold as taking two hostages at the gates didn't cause some change? I can understand if someone gets about five people to charge the gate and they get omgwtfpwned, but this is different. Jack captured two members of the stygian armada and held them hostage at the gate with a large regiment of men. By getting a large force of players behind you and capturing two other PCs important to the Stygian Armada, they have involved enough people to warrant change. Just because your attempts didn't work doesn't mean the DMs are incompetant.
Honestly, don't get outraged when something as awesome as this happens, just roll with it. Rather than get ticked about it on the forums, have your character get outraged at the Stygians for being too soft, or something.
I personally would have been very put out if everyone put their character on the line at the bridge and every single one got killed. That's like saying, "The Stygians are an elite group of soldiers that cannot be stopped any under circumstances, no matter how great and rich in RP you are, because that will derail our plot."
The way things turned out suggests that players can actually make a difference, and I prefer it that way.
While the event wasn't perfect I don't think there is a way it could have been so. The Cavalry being spawned directly behind us without warning may have been a mistake and I would have -loved- to go and try to rescue Jackin but was told I couldn't.
The resurrections were fine (though perhaps not a True resurrection) due to the situation but I think one or two extras slipped through that had no reason to get a raise.
Either way the players initiated the events and should have understood what they were getting into when they basically assaulted the integrity of the Stygian Armada in public view.
Also, while I agree that letting people live and extending the conflict is a great thing to do there are times when it's just too IC for that to happen. I believe that if Hoxie had killed the two Stygian players (that initiated an attack on him prior to the gates event) it would have been totally legit and Hoxie could have gone on to do more amazing things in the future. However, had he survived this event AND gone on to do amazing things it would have been even better, just a tricky decision sometimes.
A year from now we'll all be sitting in #efu reminiscing about that awesome raid on the gates and why things were so much more fun in the good old days.