I think this should be discussed... In general I feel that players should be made to have a standing rule about PvPing. If you are not going to give the other player a chance at physically defending themselves to take advantage of a situation. i.e. your PC being buffed up and theirs not. Then you should at least give them the option of RPing their way out of it or not. I'm not suggesting you cant take advantage of this type of situation, I'm simply saying in the least give the other player a fighting chance. If you're not going to let them defend themselves physically then at least give them a chance to RP. The only situation where I see this to be a problem would be with assassination but quite honestly I think if you're NOT an assassin then you shouldn't get to simply way-lay somebody. After all druids, paladins and clerics are held to these types of playing within your class restrictions, why not put some on other classes (and races) too. I think it's quite unfair to have these double standards on RPing class restriction. Why are non rogue types allowed to be muggers? Why do players that have prejudices against races or types of people allowed to only have these traits against PC's and not NPC's? i.e., If you play as prejudice against goblins and attack goblin PC's on sight then you should be forced to be ACTIVALLY doing something about the Gobsquat. If your faction hates necromancy then any PC or NPC that uses necromancy spells should be hated, not I hate that one but this one's ok shit! etc, etc...
On a more personal note. [yes, I'm slightly calmer now]... I feel that (and I believe most players that have interacted with Olo would agree) if given half a chance I would not only have given in and given the 'ransom' but maybe even given more and became on friendly terms with Greeley. My rant was not about the silly 200 gold (more that he yanked my pack and went through it) as some seem to think it was. It was about the total lack of any kind or semblance of role-playing involved in the situation. Not to mention the fact that (and again those that know Olo would agree) he was very cautious about dangerous areas and in the least would have been stealthed (magically enchanted to 30 hide ffs) in that new area had I known it even existed (which I didnt).
QuoteWhy are non rogue types allowed to be muggers?
Because anyone can be a thug or criminal outside of the obvious restrictions. Wizards, rogues, fighters, bards, rangers - each of these has countless reasonings depending on the character story. A CG ranger acting like a Robin Hood is quite feasible for example.
QuoteWhy do players that have prejudices against races or types of people allowed to only have these traits against PC's and not NPC's? i.e., If you play as prejudice against goblins and attack goblin PC's on sight then you should be forced to be ACTIVALLY doing something about the Gobsquat. If your faction hates necromancy then any PC or NPC that uses necromancy spells should be hated! etc, etc...
Correct, although you have to understand that challenging NPCs falls into a separate category of conflict typically. Your Goblin hating character should of course oppose the Gobsquat and all Goblins he can -within his power- and make other moves against those he can't directly face. This brings up another subject RWG spoke about some time ago where players should / should not be pushing their agenda 100% at level 2 and getting involved in conflict or whatnot. To me, the answer is clear and it's just as I said, do what you can within your power or expect a swift death if you try to take on too much.
QuoteOn a more personal note. [yes, I'm slightly calmer now]... I feel that (and I believe most players that have interacted with Olo would agree) if given half a chance I would not only have given in and given the 'ransom' but maybe even given more and became on friendly terms with Greeley. My rant was not about the silly 200 gold (more that he yanked my pack and went through it) as some seem to think it was. It was about the total lack of any kind or semblance of role-playing involved in the situation. Not to mention the fact that (and again those that know Olo would agree) he was very cautious about dangerous areas and in the least would have been stealthed in that new area had I known it even existed (which I didnt).
I don't know exactly what happened in your situation, nor do you understand the motivations of Greeley just like he didn't understand Olo would have given him the gold. Perhaps he reacted too quickly, perhaps not. What I think you should have done is let the situation happen and try to make something entertaining out of it. Had you stuck around only a few more minutes you would have seen Greeley, a well known criminal with a large bounty, killed and received your gold back while also letting Olo realize the dangers in that area of the Ziggarut.
A vast amount of players here like it for the large amount of conflict that stirs up daily. Most things are built up for a while, some offenses cause a character to get killed on sight with little chance, and some characters stay on the sidelines of it doing their own thing because that's what is fitting for them. As I said before, rather than rage quiting after being -subdued-, you should have stuck around to get the whole picture and I think you might have even enjoyed the situation.
I think we complain to much as a server. Its just a game. Chill
It isnt about my sticking around. Whoever plays Greeley shouldnt have been beaten down either if it was about the Olo thing, because Olo would have never, EVER put himself in that situation. The new map without warning forced a PvP that would have never happened. If Greely was beaten down or killed because somebody seen him beat-down Olo it's just wrong.
Honestly, I played Olo to not put himself in situations he didn't want to be in. PvP is one of them. If I knew about the new map I would have at least had a 30 hide going on and not been seen by Greeeley while I investigated the new map ( = no PvP). Had Greeley actually RP'd with Olo instead of ganking him before his buff spells wore off, Olo would eventually have conceded the ransom ( = no PvP). It's all just kinda messed up. None of what happened with Olo should have happened any way I look at it. (That's why I got torqued out.) If there was no PvP with Olo would Greeley have been caught???
Kinda hard to RP "Hey! This road (entire district) wasn't here yesturday!? wtf?"
If you have the chance to buff, then attack somebody, why not do it? If it exsists, you can do it. If you have the potion in your inventory, you can drink it.
Plus, almost 99% after PvP, there is RP. Nobody really just ~kills~. Even during assassinations, if there's time, the assassin can give a small speech as to why it happened, who hired them, etc.
Complaining about PvP isn't going to really get anything anywhere. I've been a part of alot of PvP, although some of it can get my heart racing, its all been a blast.
When the Blood Legion died, I was not the least bit pissed. You just need to work within your limits, then dream as a player to see what you can accomplish - then go for it. PvP will only make you reach that goal faster. Believe me.
I think you gotta think of few things, that are also a big part in this role playing server and this setting we are in.
Courtesy is always nice, but you gotta also understand this:
What stops you from mugging/stealing/being a thief even if you do not happen to be a rogue? There are many kind ways to do things. Class does not determine you, necessarily.
If it is a battle, and the person is some sort of bloody mugger, why would such brute and unfair person suddenly give a chance for his opponent to buff and get stronger? Some have honor, some are arrogant and wish to struck their foe on their strongest form, but others don't.
You speak a lot about RP, but to me you seem to be wishing that pvp is not part of this interaction at all. However, this setting is meant to be free image of this kind world. If you have a character that is violent, it can happen. There are thieves, there are those honourable enforcers of law and there are all kind people from between and outside the box. It is also RP when you have to deal with these problems in character. This was never meant to be a dreamy, soft core setting where there is no perma death, pvp or evil actions without consent of the good side.
Courtesy is admirable, but there is also a matter role playing that is called fear and accepting.
Like Mort said at some point,
If you are being pvp'ed, it's usually a courtesy to give some chances to to make it out. But you cannot expect to always get out without losing anything.
If you're subdued, you are being perhaps threatened and can:
1.) Act scared or horrified, a person who gives up gold, or something and loses it, but makes it alive with all his weapons and other things. He still has a chance to pay back and stand up.
2.) He keeps ignoring the serious side of this threat and ignores the role playing possibilities of a free world this setting is, which leads to more mugging and another more dire threat possibly.
At second option, if you -choose- to be brave, you gotta carry the consequences all the way. That is also role playing. Some may give you few more chances, others may not. And you may end up all the way dead, lose even more of your posessions, or anything that I can't bother to think of right now.
These are all different sides of Role playing. In this server, you talk with both your mouth and fists, and they are part of the RP.
Also, running and being a coward is as well an option. Hell, many just don't accept the situation and play it, because they are embarrassed of it OOC.
I think the title should be RP & Possibility of PvP + Meaningful consequences. As the two aren't opposites as you try to make it seem.
If you cant tolerate that possibility, I dont think EFU is for you. It's like a prerequisite... To tolerate the chance that it could happen and be chill when it does.
If you can't, well, you will just become angry and bitter and drag everyone else near you in that anger making them and yourself feel like shit over pixelated events. It might be better to find a server where there is no such possibility.
That said, plenty of people have played many concepts without ever engaging in pvp. Myself included.
I do understand that some people type slow. Some are playing with a coffee or a cigarette in their hand. Some are listening to television or are distracted. This is a disadvantage but there is no way to balance these extraneous factors.
Quote from: Paha Poika;160494What stops you from mugging/stealing/being a thief even if you do not happen to be a rogue? There are many kind ways to do things. Class does not determine you, necessarily.
What stops a druid from sleeping in a building? What stops a druid from getting coin by selling animal skins? What stops a paladin from getting along with the evil guy? What stops a cleric of a good god from being a mugger if he's broke? Why does the cleric of this one god have to hate the cleric of another god?
Jean was planting seeds in the inner city ruins when a half-orc buffed up behind her and took a swing at her. I managed to get away but I didn't escape the situation with any animosity or negative emotions (in fact, I goaded the would-be mugger for failing in tells >_>).
PvP, in general, reflects the reality of violence in the server's setting.
I do think the confusion with the new areas popping up and being OOCly disoriented about how you would be playing Olo in that area does suck though. I suppose next time it'd just be better to run straight back through the transition instead of trying to RP it out if you're OOCly disoriented.
Quote from: RIPnogarD;160498What stops a druid from sleeping in a building? What stops a druid from getting coin by selling animal skins? What stops a paladin from getting along with the evil guy? What stops a cleric of a good god from being a mugger if he's broke? Why does the cleric of this one god have to hate the cleric of another god?
Ah hah. Nothing stops you. However, druid would lose his connection to the wild and place within what ever circles, if I recall how their "social" system works.
That is however also a choise. Don't be stranded by it.
Paladin loses his place as a holy, righteous warrior in eyes of his deity if he sides with evil. Simple as that.
And well, who knows what happens to cleric if he goes mugging. He surely isn't doing good deeds, perhaps slowly gains change of alignment.
And who says cleric has to hate another, unless they have grown used to this belief and custom, therefor also becoming acolytes of their deity.
You seem to be trying to find excuses, but if one character is a paladin, rogue, what ever, they have become such for some reason and their personality usually compliments it. It doesn't have to, however. It's an option you can choose.
No matter how many times you say that no other than rogue can be a thief or mugger, doesn't make it true. Just an example, if someone in real life tells you that because you're John Doe, you can't learn to speak english? It's about same as what you're implying right now.
Why on earth would you say wizard or fighter could not be a thief?
Some classes are more flexible than others in regards to RP potential.
A fighter's limitations are practically all mechanical.
RIP makes a very good point about one thing, even if the rest is a bit unclear out of context. New areas, especially new areas without NPCs can be confusing and deadly to PCs. Case in point, I had a PC smash his way through the Sewers to get to the way up to the Docks, only to discover there was a new, longer Nightriser filled tunnel he hadn't expected, just as his buffs ran down. And I know a player who essentially failed to escape from a pursuer because he got lost in the new version of the Foothills map when it changed months ago.
I think a lot of players, especially those with irregular playing periods, would appreciate a changelog saying when new areas have been introduced, or maps substantially changed. Nothing that would spoil the location for exploring but just:
Quote- Added an NPC-free crossroads area linking Docks, Ziggurat and Temples
- Increased the length of the sewers map from the Ziggurat to the Docks
- Added a Sandbar linking the Docks to the Perilous Cliffside.
Since these areas are ret-conned in and assumed to always have been there, giving us OOC knowledge of when this happens would mean we wouldn't be surprised as players to see a lawless area or longer trek when our PCs wouldn't be.
I think a 'Server Update' thread for non-spoiler areas which affect things OOCly is a fine idea, actually. Obviously this'd have to be used sparingly to avoid any spoiler territory. However, announcing new ruins areas which affect main travelling routes is a good one.
Robin Hood and his merry-men <(silly name btw) were part of or a type of thief or rogue's guild. Any mugging and theivery should either be dealt with by the local thieves dealing with the freelancer or the DM should say "perhaps you should take a level of rogue next progression being that you've mugged 12 PC's." I'm not saying they can't mug and that PvP shouldn't happen. I'm just saying that if it takes a level of cleric to allow a druid to be able to sleep in the city then there should be similer things done to other classes based on how they play their character. A fighter that is forever mugging people should be told to take a level of rogue, be threatened by a group of thieves for freelancing or maybe have to join a "rogue" faction or at least have a reasonable level rogue as part of a team effort mugging or something.
QuoteIt isnt about my sticking around. Whoever plays Greeley shouldnt have been beaten down either if it was about the Olo thing, because Olo would have never, EVER put himself in that situation.
Then you shouldn't have walked into an area that it's possible in, or taken the precautions to prevent it upon realization.
QuoteThe new map without warning forced a PvP that would have never happened. If Greely was beaten down or killed because somebody seen him beat-down Olo it's just wrong.
Not really. I think once you enter the new map it is pretty obvious that what it is. It's been said that there's more ruins than what's shown and while it's probably not the ideal representation of what is most desirable to wander through, engine limitations, or what the DMs have time to create. Just existing can force you into PvP if someone wants to find/target you.
Greeley was an evil character who was inclined to do this, and he did. He was beaten down and killed because he was a wanted man and someone found him and did so.
QuoteHonestly, I played Olo to not put himself in situations he didn't want to be in. PvP is one of them. If I knew about the new map I would have at least had a 30 hide going on and not been seen by Greeeley while I investigated the new map ( = no PvP). Had Greeley actually RP'd with Olo instead of ganking him before his buff spells wore off, Olo would eventually have conceded the ransom ( = no PvP).
Why didn't you just concede then? Obviously you had the opportunity. He subdued you, which doesn't somehow make it illegal for you to continue to RP. Buff spells sort of exist in this manner for that reason. Do you think that if you were in a back alleyway and you were being mugged that he would give you the opportunity to write him a poem or something?
QuoteIt's all just kinda messed up. None of what happened with Olo should have happened any way I look at it. (That's why I got torqued out.) If there was no PvP with Olo would Greeley have been caught???
I don't think anything like this always happens as we ideally plan. While I can sympathize with that sort of misfortune, I think that your reaction is somewhat rash and misguided. Of course, it happens to most of us sooner or later.
calm down
If you zoned into an area you were unfamiliar with there was nothing stopping you from turning around and going back. Its very clear the second you zone into that place that its devoid of life! Sorry it just sounds like a strawman to me!
Thief=/=Rogue. For further details, please see this thread (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28918&highlight=Aubrey+Craddock%22), and the class one on rogue. They have been thieves, spies, diplomats, watchmen and merchants on EFU:A. In fact I'd go as far as to say that thieves have been the minority of players with Rogue levels. I believe Horace Greely did have Rogue levels anyway. As for mugging people, how are sneak attacks and the option to hide or pick locks going to be of interest to say, a barbarian thug who prefers hitting people over the head with a dead tree until they submit, and kicking doors down when he wants to steal things?
There isn't a local "thieves's guild" in EfU:A, player ones pop up occasionally and tend to be hostile to people stepping on their turf. Taking a level of Cleric and sleeping in the city all the time will still cause a druid to chug a hot steaming mug of Spellfail for breakign druidic oaths.
fi... Doesn't matter what I say, clique player is right, non-clique player is wrong. Why bother...
You did wander there and had the option to turn around, simply. I can understand if someone types slow, but I'm going to go ahead and assume that you had enough time to type 'wait'. 'Beaten to death' is sort of an overstatement since you weren't!
But now this is unfortunately out of context since you edited your post, oh well!
tl;dr
No moar invis Gank, da point?
Crying 'CLIQUE' after people disagree with you is bad form. There has been only one person posting in this thread who is a member of a clique, and that is derflaro. And the clique isn't even that good. Sort of like how they put all the disabled kids into remedial classes.
So, all you have here is reasoned debate and argument.
click click
ok... Can a fighter be a wizard? or a druid? or a cleric? without taking a level in the other class?... NO
If to be able to cast spells a fighter needs a level of wizard, cleric or druid...
Wait, I forget, anybody can be a thief even without levels of rogue..
Ok... How about we say I am a thief (rogue) and I want to mug people. Is it ok to mug them while using a great-sword and still get my sneak attack? Oh, wait... nm, cant do that because their are rules against it. Hmm.. So if I want to be a thief with a great sword and plate armor all I have to do is make a min-max fighter and play him like a rogue, cool. I'll rememeber that for next time.
Sorry, I just wasn't aware of this. I always thought they had character classes for a reason.
Hurt feelings aside, and clique mentality chucked out the window, I want to chime in on the original idea posted just a second...
While I think bandits can be fun and PVP is an important aspect of the game world, I think it gets a little silly sometimes when people "gank" one another without any context. This includes some masked attempts at RP after the fact, which while the other person bleeds to death thinking to themselves "wtf" is just salt in a wound. The best kind of PVP in my mind is the type that is built up through RP over time. The two should almost -always- go hand in hand.
Some characters and players seem to pick fights just to pick them. To many, I think "conflict" on the server has become "PVP". The fun conflicts are the ones that push stories forward somewhere, the best ones usually involving pvp only after a story arc in which both sides know and are prepared. Random ganks are very good at stopping development in its tracks and ending stories before they have a chance to go anywhere.
Over the years I've had a number of players die to assassinations from the shadows. That being said, only some of them really deserved it and knew it was coming. The random muggings, killings, etc are just dumb in my opinion. They end characters before they have any chance to make a difference in the game world. And despite saying "get over it" players feelings do get hurt. I think most of the reason it happens stems from greed of the attacker, be it for the pvp rush, or for the gold/equipment or just the notoriety.
I think the fact that this kind of game play is rewarded and sometimes encouraged by the player base and DM staff is a mistake. I've had characters less then a week old pulled aside and hearts cut out while DM's watched and rewarded the attackers. Was it in their character to do so? Yes. Did it do anything for the game world other then make the attackers rich? No. There weren't even clues left for law enforcement to do anything about it. These kinds of situations don't do anything good and shouldn't exists, let alone be rewarded.
Its a tough balancing act, I suppose, but there is usually a pretty clear line between story oriented conflict and gripers. Don't be a griper. That's just my opinion. Take it for what you will.
What are you talking about? You can play a fighter who goes around beating people with a club and taking gold from their packs. That's stealing, last time I checked. Isn't that what thieves do?
Quote from: RIPnogarD;160531Ok... How about we say I am a thief (rogue) and I want to mug people. Is it ok to mug them while using a great-sword and still get my sneak attack? Oh, wait... nm, cant do that because their are rules against it. Hmm.. So if I want to be a thief with a great sword and plate armor all I have to do is make a min-max fighter and play him like a rogue, cool. I'll rememeber that for next time.
This is so messed up, it isn't even wrong.
Quote from: Portal Rat;160533You can play a fighter who goes around beating people with a club and taking gold from their packs.
Give me a break, I never said they couldn't. I said if they do it ALL the time they should take a level of rogue ~OR~ become part of the local thief's guild ~OR~ be harrassed and or killed by the local thieves guild for freelancing.
Why am I bothering, you guys arn't even reading what I write...
[shakes head and walks away from the thread... .. .]
what local thieves guild?
i really don't understand why a fighter can't steal gold. sure he can't pick pocket it, but that's due to class limitations, so instead he beats it out of his targets.
One last point...
Someone like Robin Hood had a whole gang of merry men. He robbed from only -certain- people, who hated him fiercely, and gave the rewards away to a group of people who loved him. This is a story which involves many and pushes ideological concepts and philosophies into the limelight.
Ganking someone who you don't know personally and taking their gold all by yourself or with a few henchman with no loyalties to one another is completely different. Quite frankly, its much less imaginative and fun for everyone but you. This is a shared game world, and while you don't have to make sure everyone else is having fun, I promise you the experience is better when people are.
As someone who has built and ran a group of thieves on this server:
Rogues aren't thieves. Fighters aren't thieves. Wizards aren't thieves.
THIEF IS AN OCCUPATION.
Its like mercenary, or guard, or scholar. A fighter-thief is called a thug, and he is an enforcer for a group. A Merchant-thief is called a fence, and he sells and busy stolen goods A rogue-thief is called an assassin, or a pickpocket, or what ever you want to call it. Thieves do, at times, attack freelancers.
Rogue is not some PRC you need to become a thief.
This thread is getting fucking ridiculous, which is something I rarely say.
RIP, classes like fighter and rogue provide mechanical limitations and advantages through skills and statistics. You can sneak attack in fullplate and with a greatsword simply by multiclassing.
What a character needs to rob and steal from another, however, is motive, mindset, careless disregard for other people's well-being and their property. These are things not covered by classes. Divine-caster classes may be an exception but even then, motive and mindset can vary greatly between them.
Look at some of the notable characters in this server's history: Johannes Doctor Vile, Thomas' Allivarn. One a rogue, the other a cleric, class-wise. Both played the part of merchant, business men, and political figure. What class was Proverson? I don't have a clue whatever class TRB selected at character creation practically had no influence on how Proverson acted as an individual character as a whole.
Quote from: RIPnogarD;160535Give me a break, I never said they couldn't. I said if they do it ALL the time they should take a level of rogue ~OR~ become part of the local thief's guild ~OR~ be harrassed and or killed by the local thieves guild for freelancing.
Why am I bothering, you guys arn't even reading what I write...
[shakes head and walks away from the thread... .. .]
There's no reason that a character should join a specific faction because of their class or concept. That's like saying all fighters should the Stygians, all rogues should set the Gobsquat or the Docks as their reset point, and all druids and rangers should join the Stewards. Certainly there are aspects of each class which leads to common factors in character concepts that lead to these factions, but these aren't hard-coded into the game, they're decisions we can make as players.
As for Greeley evoking a response from NPC forces, the Stygians put a bounty on his head and I have seen NPC Infantryman chase him down at least once.
I really hope you don't walk away from this thread because I'd rather prefer this issue be cleared up. I am reading what you're saying and what I'm getting is that you think that class and concept should correlate, is that a fair way of putting it?
I think this thread is losing a lot of it's original meaning, but I do want to point out that we did indeed cockblock Craddock's level advacement because he was acting too much like a rogue and not enough like a wizard. We do expect people to accurately represent the class they've chosen and we put especially high scrutiny on high-level characters.
Quote from: Decimate_The_Weak;160492If you have the chance to buff, then attack somebody, why not do it? If it exsists, you can do it. If you have the potion in your inventory, you can drink it.
Plus, almost 99% after PvP, there is RP. Nobody really just ~kills~. Even during assassinations, if there's time, the assassin can give a small speech as to why it happened, who hired them, etc.
Complaining about PvP isn't going to really get anything anywhere. I've been a part of alot of PvP, although some of it can get my heart racing, its all been a blast.
When the Blood Legion died, I was not the least bit pissed. You just need to work within your limits, then dream as a player to see what you can accomplish - then go for it. PvP will only make you reach that goal faster. Believe me.
IMO Decimate nailed it here.
PvP is RP.
Quote from: DangerousDanCrying 'CLIQUE' after people disagree with you is bad form. There has been only one person posting in this thread who is a member of a clique, and that is derflaro. And the clique isn't even that good. Sort of like how they put all the disabled kids into remedial classes.
Jealousy is an ugly thing.
On-topic, I think that your complaint is mostly fueled by the fact that you were targeted personally. I remember another similar thread popping up after a mugging a year or so back about taking large amounts of gold from a pack, the weight of the gold, suggestions about introducing rules or scripts to prevent people from taking large amounts of gold and fleeing... essentially, I understand that you were upset by what happened, but it was all IC and, I think, reasonable enough -- you weren't FD'd and the player used his initiative in how much to take from you.
Greeley was a well-known bandit with one of the highest bounties that I can remember and an IC motivation for banditry. What you suggest is implementing contrived PVP rules and, even, class limitations that prevent players from using their own initiative, strangling roleplay somewhat. It sucks to get robbed, but I don't think the solution is more rules and limits -- indeed, the solution should not be OOC at all.
While RiP is being exessive, there's some truth about classes meaning your PC has made some choice in life about what he likes and what he doesn't, what he plans to do or want he doesn't like to do, what he more or less knows (magic, lore?) and what he never gave a damn about.
Skill are there to be more precise, though.
That being said, most warrior/mercenaries turned to thuggery between wars, and rogue does not equal thief (but sneaks skill/disable trap/open locks probably does).
Last: RP vs PvP sounds bad. They should come together.
What i do fear is:
- people that PvP and then pretend to RP over what happened, when i would prefer mid-term/ long-term RP to lead to the PvP.
- people confusion "RP to PvP" with "insults/intimidate leading straight to duels/gank."
Quote from: Halfbrood;160538what local thieves guild?
This one..
QuoteQuote:
Unspecificed EFU:A Criminal Organization
Application required for entry.
Prominent criminal PCs may be invited to apply for entrance. If you believe your character is prominent, you may approach a DM for more info/whether an application may be warranted. Any information regarding this group, including its existence, is to be learned in game only.
I guess, Stewards defend their honor, Stygians protect theirs but this criminal organization could care less who mugs who.
ah, the unspecified efu:a criminal organization should've regulated greeley's actions
That criminal organization is either dead, or a function of old port. Our website still lists ORDER and SHARBONETH factions. I'd love to update it, but I don't think they'd let me have the access. lol
Meanwhile, there have been player run and populated thieves guilds that have indeed threatened and killed other pcs that were stealing on their turf. I've watched it happen. But it was a -roleplay- event between players, and even then some -people- choose to ignore the threats and challenge the guild.
These are people to people events. What happened to Olo was him getting beat by a dark knight in full-plate. What his occ statistics are has no relevance to the ic event that was taking place. Either way, no matter what the repercussions may have been, the event was happening with those characters then, and should be treated as any other event. PvP almost always comes with RP, but cannot always be avoided through RP.
I should note, that thieves guild? It was run by a wizard, not a rogue.
Yes and no. While pvp is always a necessary evil the fact of the matter remains EFU and even EFUA has always been a cutthroat place. I don't even like pvp, but I certainly find the constant danger a enjoyable rp theme to the server.
Yes and no to what?
This thread makes my head hurt, but I feel compelled to jump in.
FD'ing someone out of no where with no prior history is not good. That is not what happened though. But mugging characters for 200 GP is perfectly appropriate role-play for a bandit character. This kind of conflict is obviously not based off of ruining other people's fun (200 gp? come on) but is a way to portray a bandit which in turns gives the law, vigilantes, other criminals, all kinds of things opportunities for more roleplay and fun. A bandit that ambushes someone else with no dialogue is perfectly fine roleplay also - sometimes in the story the highwayman will shoot arrows from the trees at the hero, other times the highwayman will demand money first... just depends on the highwayman and his code.
As for the stuff about it being a new area - when you entered you could have gone back easily enough.
As for the stuff about all bandits should take the rogue class - that's just wrong, sorry. We are not playing DnD, we are playing EFU:A. It seems like I've had to remind you of this a lot in various threads. If you want a discussion of this issue maybe a separate thread may be best.
As for the stuff about "local thieves guild or whatever" - really, no comment, but it's not something any player should worry about as anything having to do with this would be IC.
Bottom line for me is that it is important for players to be relaxed about these things and being a good sport is extremely important. If you lose a hand of poker in a casino or a game of basketball with friends, do you get this upset? I appreciate that this thread is written with civility and have no issue with it but it is just kind of clear from your leaving post, tone, etc. that this incident bothered you quite a bit.
I understand PvP is stressful for many people but if it is THAT stressful then perhaps this is not an appropriate server.
I don't want to sound like an ass, but EFU:A is a server based entirely on conflict, from what i've experiensed. PvP will happen, that is usually, how characters are ended, for instance.
If you are looking for a non-combat server, look for thain. There, you literaly need to ask the other player if he wants to PvP with you, and he needs to agree before you can continue.
Quote from: Howland;160565As for the stuff about it being a new area - when you entered you could have gone back easily enough.
You're right, I could have... First thought that went breifly through my head was I ported to the wrong map. Second thought I said to myself, "I think it's a new map" and typed [Looks around...]... Then somebody sent me a tell about the new map and I replied... Then Greely approached and... .. . So... Unless I simply turned and ran the second I seen where I was, I basically didn't have time to go back.
Quote from: Howland;160565Bottom line for me is that it is important for players to be relaxed about these things and being a good sport is extremely important. If you lose a hand of poker in a casino or a game of basketball with friends, do you get this upset?
Hmm... Good point... But did the dealer pull from the bottom of the deck? Did I get elbowed in the face while playing basketball? But explain to me why it is that I'm the one that needs to be the good sport and not the guy that's obviously taking the cheap shot/low blow whatever you want to call it? Is it good sportsmanship to way-lay a PC that your PC has never interacted with?
Quote from: Howland;160565As for the stuff about all bandits should take the rogue class - that's just wrong, sorry. We are not playing DnD, we are playing EFU:A. It seems like I've had to remind you of this a lot in various threads. If you want a discussion of this issue maybe a separate thread may be best.
Ok, fine. I do think I'm playing D&D most of the time but I guess it's the setting I'm in that confuses me a bit. After all Farune is a D&D setting. I'll try to keep in mind this isn't D&D.
Quote from: derflaro;160557ah, the unspecified efu:a criminal organization should've regulated greeley's actions
And to you derf... This isnt all about Greeley and Olo. It's about the situation in general so there is no need to defend your friend with smartass comments.
You sound like a girl, man up. It's a game, you lost fake gold on a fake character. We all get mad but crying like a sissy boy and looking like a complete retard while everyone here is saying it was fair and explaining the reasons why to you in nice terms. I decided to try it this way.
Point is, you could of left, yes right when he/you saw eachother. You could of drank invis and ran, you could of paid him, you could of sang a little tune, you could of waited 15 mins and been OK and got your things? This aint carebear land, shit happens. Maybe next time you'll be more prepared... if you are man enough to not quit over such a stupid thing.
QuoteHmm... Good point... But did the dealer pull from the bottom of the deck? Did I get elbowed in the face while playing basketball? But explain to me why it is that I'm the one that needs to be the good sport and not the guy that's obviously taking the cheap shot/low blow whatever you want to call it? Is it good sportsmanship to way-lay a PC that your PC has never interacted with?
If I got elbowed in the face while playing basketball, I'd be angry for a while. But it was just a single game where that happens. There will still be other games. It is the same with EFU.
That was all the past. It is best to put it behind you. Shit happens, and if you let that kind of shit affect you and put you in a bitter mood, you're doing more harm than good to yourself.
You think you were treated unfairly by the mugger. Perhaps you were, perhaps you were not. Does it really matter? There are dozens of other players whom you can interact with that won't make you feel mistreated. Focus on interacting with those PCs. Don't focus on the ones that make you bitter.
Bad stuff happens. But there is always another day.
It seems to me this all came about from a major miscommunication. If you had stayed around and seen it through, you would have seen Greeley get caught red-handed and lost exactly none of your stuff. I see you saying,
very often, that things "should" have happened this way or that. But it should be very clear by now, that's what the DMs are for. In situations like this, you calmly approach a DM with your grievance and they help work it out.
What you're accomplishing here is exactly nothing, though. Do you want to come back? Do you want to prove us all wrong? So far, neither is likely from the way it seems. But then, neither is impossible either. It feels to me like you want to keep playing, but you also want some sort of resolution for this, and a guarantee that it won't happen again. For the first, I can say that the character that mugged you is dead, and that if you wanted to bring Olo back I'm sure his
many, many, many friends would help him get back on his feet. As for the other, though, I'm afraid that -is- impossible.
There used to be an area in the Underdark called Lower Sanctuary, or Lower for short. For a while, in this area, PvP was allowed without any DMs around, despite the fact that there were many NPCs around. Why? Because it was a thuggish wasteland. Most of the people there could not Sneak Attack you, but were thugs and criminals nonetheless. Several events happened, some of which I was personally privy to, and the end result is that DM ended unsupervised PvP in all areas with NPCs.
Why? It was a shitstorm, almost every single time. Nobody likes to lose, and some people take it very poorly. And keep in mind, that's not what I'm saying happened here; this is something else entirely. But it shares the same problem of there not being any oversight for possible questions, grievances, and issues that arrive from PvP. The game is buggy at its very core, despite 69 some-odd patches. Unfortunately, if all PvP was banned without DM supervision in all areas, roleplaying would grind to a stand-still. We have 5 active DMs right now, it simply can't work that way.
So, we have to accept that mistakes will happen. The only guarantee any of us here at EfU:A can give you is that if you come to us, players like me or DM like those that have posted here, we'll help you work out your problems. What we won't do is coddle you, shake our heads like mother and say Oh, That Boy Of Ours! :rolleyes: when you do things like this:
QuoteAnd to you derf... This isnt all about Greeley and Olo. It's about the situation in general so there is no need to defend your friend with smartass comments.
You know you're the one being hostile, being sarcastic, outright rude, and completely unhelpful. And you also know we'll forgive you and work out the problems if you take the time to be civil about it. So, RIP, can you at least try? You're not a bad player at all and, excusing this recent unpleasantness (which I've also been guilty of in the past), I think most of us would rather have you here than not.
Quote from: ExileStrife;160543I think this thread is losing a lot of it's original meaning, but I do want to point out that we did indeed cockblock Craddock's level advacement because he was acting too much like a rogue and not enough like a wizard. We do expect people to accurately represent the class they've chosen and we put especially high scrutiny on high-level characters.
That'd odd, I remember several discussions in the DM channel where you basically admitted it was just because you were scared of me having access to L6 spells!
Back on topic:
I know the details of your PvP incident that has you upset and it was fine. As Mort mentioned, merely
playing on EFU, you're basically signing an invisible contract that you're ready to be PvP'd at any time from anywhere under any circumstance. If you can't handle this, perhaps EFU is not for you. :(
And just for the record, 95% of all PvP on EFU is fun and done tastefully. I find the best sort of conflict is the lead up to PvP (bribery, blackmail, slandering, spying, etc) but at the end of the day PvP does occur and it will probably happen to everyone at some point. Roll with it, stay chill, enjoy it.
Quote from: Caddies;160612That'd odd, I remember several discussions in the DM channel where you basically admitted it was just because you were scared of me having access to L6 spells!
Now you have Hellball. :???:
To say only rogues should be bandits is sad and LOL. Considering some of the best criminals on the server have been pure fighters clerics ETC. Also lets not forget De Olid a ftr/brd. Or Zau one of the servers most skilled hitmen who was a pure ftr. Maalgor a pure cleric. While yes rogues make skilled criminals and can pick locks stealth in addition to handling traps however brutes/thugs are some of the most effective bandits of all time. To say only rogues should be criminals is foolish and retarded.
QuoteAnd to you derf... This isnt all about Greeley and Olo. It's about the situation in general so there is no need to defend your friend with smartass comments.
When it comes down to it, it is actually about Greeley and Olo! Why else would this topic not focus around their situation as an example?
I already stated the truths that everyone else repeated in their own way here; defending my friend in amusing ways is just icing on the cake (not that were he wrongful I would do it in a serious manner). Overall I would suggest you try to see it from the point of view of other players or the DMs. It it just a game!
I hope that you realize your misconceptions and I sincerely apologize for trying to help you in doing so. I have made these mistakes before also.
PvP sometimes gets sour, people get annoyed it's going to happen but the point I feel is that you seem to think it's unfair. It probably is unfair and I hate to quote the old saying but life isn't fair. A street mugger won't give you a chance to explain in all honesty. It's a fine line between fun and realism ( yes i know it's a game I mean realism for that world). It's easy to be frustrated but it's easier to forgive and move on. 200 gold really isn't a lot I mean my Druid probably would give you that if you proved you were mugged. Tbh ragequit doesn't help and you feel kinda silly afterwards. If you return I'm sure no one will think any less as LTS says.
Quote from: Caddies;160612That'd odd, I remember several discussions in the DM channel where you basically admitted it was just because you were scared of me having access to L6 spells!
I will rekindle this again JUST BECAUSE I CAN
There were like three major components that were battling back and forth to get either the "real issue" or "crummy excuse" titles.
- Level 6 spells not balanced
- RPing a rogue but playing a wizard
- Needs to do something to earn it
Quote from: ExileStrife;160641I will rekindle this again JUST BECAUSE I CAN
There were like three major components that were battling back and forth to get either the "real issue" or "crummy excuse" titles.
- Level 6 spells not balanced
- RPing a rogue but playing a wizard
- Needs to do something to earn it
How was he rping a rogue? He used nothing but wizard spells.
as opposed to rogue spells?
You don't want to know, Dr Dragon. You don't want to know.
-- There is a major who-ha that happens behind the scenes whenever a character gets to level 9 or so and Craddock happened to be an especially major one. This is usually not shared, but I spilled it here for the heck of it.
Quote from: ExileStrife;160543We do expect people to accurately represent the class they've chosen and we put especially high scrutiny on high-level characters.
With that, enough is said about it. Ya'll can continue to call me names now if you like.
:rolleyes:
I need to make another ammedment. Class interpretations DO need to be "loose," like in Howland's example. Craddock DID earn the right for level 11, but the DM team messed up in trying to determine if Craddock was a legit play or not and couldn't decide in time. I'm just emphasizing that the scrutiny is there and DOES happen, though it's not always perfect.
I don't recall anyone calling you names. Also, being a Rogue does not mean you are a thief. You're quoting something that has no relation on your situation at all, not to mention that fact that Greeley was in fact a Rogue and by your terms that makes it legit for him to be a thief.
As for the statement itself - If a Wizard spends the time, skills, and even feats to become quite skilled at something outside of being a typical Wizard that hardly means they aren't representing their class. I don't know about you but when I play a Wizard I don't spent a huge majority of my time emoting reading books and spending countless hours studying the finer details of spells. That is assumed information and like it was stated in IRC earlier, you don't expect a Fighter to emote doing push-ups or jogging or perfecting their sword strikes against dummies. All of that is represented in itself by experience points and while some of it can add flavor to a character it's entirely silly to claim that someone going outside of the box a bit is not representing their class.
BigBadThief is on the money.
Closing thread, I think its run its course.