QuoteYes, bards are an amazing class. From a mechanical perspective you can understand why they are played less these days.
Unfortunately a lot of their benefits are taken away by the abundance of healing charges and buffing charms in efu:a as opposed to efu.
They're still decent but they don't have any fall backs in the same way as a cleric has his progressive divine favor buff and divine power later. I wish I had something to suggest to give them an edge!
Holy crap. Even Naga is saying there are too many consumables. Something Must Be Done. As for what the Something is, allow me to throw out some suggestions for discussion (DISCLAIMER: I have no idea which of these may be unscriptable, so I'm anticipating incoming CruzelScorn).
- Lots More Bard Spellslot Gear. Specifically on the Level 2 and even Level 3 spells. I know that does sound rediculously powerful, but although bards get a good selection of spells per spell level, the number of spells per day they can cast is extremely limited. Adding that kind of thing would reward pure bards, who are rare, without making things easier for multiclasses who could use lower level spellslot gear to get a good number of L1 slots.
- Give all Bard PCs Weapon Proficiency:Rogue or Elf at L1 if it's scriptable. That would represent the Bard proficiency in DnD that allows them access to Longsword, Rapier, Shortsword, Shortbow and Whip.
- Hardcoded skill bonuses that progress like the ranger and druid wilderness ones and the Barb immunities, starting at Bard Level 4 or 5 to discourage 3 Bard Level Multiclasses over pure bards. For example, -20% Arcane Spellfailure at L4 (disabled in medium or heavy armor), and starting at Level 4, +2 Perform and Taunt per bard Level. Why? because by giving them essentially 2 free skills, it makes up for them only having 4 Skillpoints a level in NWN as opposed to 6 in DnD.
- Or, adjust a few of the spells they can cast. Maybe make Keen Edge 1 hour/level (similiar to how it was originally) and self target only? It's not used that commonly to buff others, nor is it vital if you want to buff someone to take on a werecreature like GMW is. It would however allow someone with 7 bard levels to walk around with a rather nasty buff up that isn't easy to get on a consumable.
Finally, a slightly off topic and contentious idea, but how about reducing drastically the amount of buff items available that will increase your AB and dmg, while keeping defensive buffs at the same level. Then someone who can cast say Bull's Strength and haste on himself, like a bard, is more powerful, but it's still possible to defend against that kind of thing. The idea came to me after playing LiS's current, very low magic campaign where I'm having to be much, much more careful with supplies.
My feelings here are that Bards should be rare. They are jack-of-all trade types but they are really minstrels. How many minstrels should there really be? Their songs can be amazing in supporting a party, that's their main theme as far as being part of a group. That plus spells and great skills, pretty great backup character.
They shouldn't be great frontliners in my opinion.
Quote from: IxTheSpeedy;160503That plus spells and great skills, pretty great backup character.
Their spells are weak, and in small number. A sorc would be a better spell support.
Great skills? Bards are actually supposed to get 6 skill points a level in DnD, really with perform a must. they get three skills. unless you can invest in intelligence, which any bard who is worth a damn in the front. cannot.
Even as a backup pc, they are weak. and much less useful than a wizard or a rogue.
Pure bard only ooc warnings on good bard gear. And readily available spellslot gear for lvl 1+2 spells would give them the boost they need.
They should however have...something. Either more spells, more skills or more firepower. They don't have the "buff up and kill everything option" a Cleric has with their spells and HP, or the number of support spells of a mage. In fact, Bards have very few useful spells that can't just be used off consumables. You have to rely on a combination. You can build one for stealth, but they won't have the points available to take out traps and locks (4 SP a level, 2 of those to H/MS, 1 to Perform, likely 1 to tumble). You can build one for combat, but they run out of juice fast with their limited number of spells. I'd say that's the reason why it's so common as a multiclass. I prefer bard/rogues with bardic music feats for support chars as I get skill points, more class skills and sneaks. I lose out on a couple of high level spells a day, but get more use out of my AB and skills, and feel I can contribute more to a group.
I'm never going to stop regularly playing bard PCs, the RP value of the class alone's a good reason. I'd just like to see some enticement for other players to try them too, in the same way that many advantages have been given to rangers and barbs. Those were to compensate for their best abilities being outside EFU's level range. IMO Bards could use something to compensate for consumables bloat making "can cast a few minor spells" rather redundant. Bard song and especially Curse Song always going to be good, but the progression on it from L1-3 is better than for 4-7 really, and that's where most PCs fall.
Bards dont need boosted in my opinion. They provide small bonus's, can still cast, and I have seen pure bards through through hordes on many an occasion. More spells known maybe, if anything. Since having such sweet spell lists are lol when you see how little you get from them.
Don't forget that bards get stealth. Combine that with a few good combat buffs, and you can do very well.
6+INT Skillpoints per level instead of 4+INT as improved in 3.5E. Currently Bards are traders of jack and nothing instead of jack-of-all-trades.
I don't really care about anything else that buffs or nerfs them.
Bards could use more skills for sure, yeah. But the Dms decided that the only way they could do this, wouldn't be retroactive, and would only give the people that DL'ed the override the skills. That imbalance made it less attractive, and in the end, it was passed over. Bards can do allot of things, they are jack of all trades, sometimes you just have to multiclass with them to really get a big picture. I've seen some Bard/Rangers literally do a bit of everything, actually.
Quote from: Porkolt;160556Don't forget that bards get stealth. Combine that with a few good combat buffs, and you can do very well.
The point being that in order to be a 'stealth' build you have to give up something else, like say UMD wich is one of the Bards BEST skills IMO. Or give up perform ranks, or any number of others.
In DnD the Bard is a "jack of all trades" and hence gets 6 sp per level plut Int bonus. Here in Nwn they get 4. So what do you give up? Lore? Perform? UMD? Hide? M/S? you can't have them all.
Personally I love playing Bards, it gives me the chance to be creative. With my current Bard I have been hired IG to write no less than 4 songs for very different groups. OOC'ly this gave me the chance to learn more of these groups that I may not have taken the time to learn otherwise.
But, what I gain OOC'ly, I lose in a high danger server. I find my self VERY reluctant to do certain quests, and often don't quest at all perferring to spend my time RP'ing. This then means that a single death sets me back months of XP not just days or weeks.
Not, that any of this will stop me from playing Bards, but it does get highly discouraging after 6 months of play and seeing that you are back to 5th level. heh
The death does set-back power wise people that are not built to level and survive. Giving the class bonuses doesn't help however. It just shifts the weakest builds to a bit stronger, and the stronger to OMFG WTF just happened? Bards can destroy things. They can. Builds that arent designed for fighting dont fight well. But they also dont really require levels either.
You werent set back 6 months if you were learning, playing, and creating things with your character. You still did all those things, and the level was almost meaningless throughout all of that.
Bards are fine the way they are. THey dont need anything.
Bards need more skillpoints. Maybe giving them passive bonus to skills, like the one they get for lore?
That way, they can chose not to max all skills, and still have them in a high rank, that way, they can divide the skillpoints.
For instance, free points int taunt, bluff & persuade.
Quote from: Ebok;160564The death does set-back power wise people that are not built to level and survive. Giving the class bonuses doesn't help however. It just shifts the weakest builds to a bit stronger, and the stronger to OMFG WTF just happened? Bards can destroy things. They can. Builds that arent designed for fighting dont fight well. But they also dont really require levels either.
You werent set back 6 months if you were learning, playing, and creating things with your character. You still did all those things, and the level was almost meaningless throughout all of that.
I play combat and support bards often, and I can say they are amazing at both. Their bard song CAN effectively turn the tide.
I will give a big BUT, though. They can use MORE skills, and more bard loot will not hurt.
Maybe just get rid of PERFORM as a skill. Only buff they need. Effectively gives them +1 skill point per level and is reasonably easy to script.
Quote from: Gippy;160595Maybe just get rid of PERFORM as a skill. Only buff they need. Effectively gives them +1 skill point per level and is reasonably easy to script.
This.
Casting in light / medium armor is also a good suggestion but... Have any of you /played/ high level bards? I have and I can say they are rocking flankers / support. I have played a number of them and can say that I had no problems getting to a decent level or acting like a total badass. I have in the past felt constrained by skill points. I hate perform with a passion.
<.< Bards can kick a Frontline as well. Do not underestimate gnome/Halfling bards. THEY CAN DESTROY ALL IN THEIR PATH
I have actually. Egon Rosenqvist was L8, Mister Banks was L9 and Toinus Lutgenk was L9. They were all multiclasses though, Egon with 1 Cleric of Lurue level, Banks with 3 Rogue levels and Toinus with 4 Rogue. I've played PCs who were mid-level bards at least and definitely made them useful. But, as you can see the running theme with me has been "take classes that give you more skill points or abilities as bards are spread quite thin in either skillpoints or stats". As for Thomas's halfling bard point, it's a good one, but wasn't Joric a Bard/Rogue and Drago loaded out with Heavy Armor and Martial Wep feats (or was that a ftr level)?
Bards don't suck, and I'm not saying that. They do though feel constrained and missing stuff in a lot of ways in NWN. They get an awesome collection of class skills, but too few skill points to use them well. They get up to medium armor and shields, but using either screws up their arcane spellcasting. They get a decent spell list but too few spells/day to keep anything but hr/level spells going throughout an EFU length quest. They wreck "no potions" spars but the availablity of unrestricted magic gear over scrolls and wands makes a pure bard less use in a straight fight (Although fair's fair, Dispel as a L1 spell on demand softens that blow a lot).
They are brilliant for responding to sudden attacks with the right spells for the moment, RPing and giving moderate buffs to massive groups. Armor and shields make them more resilient than rogues too. They just seem like they can't do half the stuff they should be able to to do given their feats. I really like playing bards, so I thought I'd just get all the constructive criticism and ideas I've come up with while playing with them down in one thread.
Joric Featherfall was a bard/rogue, he never won pvP unless you count giving the coup de grace on the Ironhalo PvP, <.<
Drago Jather, Sugrim, all took exotic or martial and heavy armor. They hit for an average of 15-23 damage.
Wow... a nice simple solution and suggestion, Gippy, yet effective. I like it. This would at least give Bards 5+INT skillpoints, which would be a good step most definitely. Of course, you'd need to give 4 perform point bonus at level 1 too.
I'm all for this though. I'll say that while I don't play a bard currently, my most favorite character that I've played was a bard. I've always seen them as jack-of-all-trades, and 3.5E made this true with the skill point per level adjustment, which mechanically allowed them to have skills that would reflect usually the life of a well-studied scholar, or the life of a well-traveled vagabond with various skills he/she picked up on the way.
Do it Gippy. NNNNAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Bard song / curse song has been made into a free action on many servers as well. While it's called a free action keep in mind that they don't stack or overlap with another song and the duration can't be refreshed until it actually expires.
In a sense it would make Bard song function like some Knight abilities (which still need buffs if you ask me!). The Skill Point issue is quite valid and there is a reason they were given more in later versions of DND. In fact, I believe perform was completely removed in 4th addition as well and players were left to openly decide on how well their character could perform, not completely sure on that however.
Adding some armours with 0% spell failure would correct any weakness in the bard class here imo.
My current, Haevn, made it to level 8 (held it for all of 15 minutes then died sadly to spiders)
Anatia Leruex died at level 6 (Her highest level reached by the way)
Both were pure Bard builds, no multiclassing. I can say that I have throughly enjoyed every moment of play with both of these characters. Thou they are limiting mechanic wise, I wouldn't trade the times I've played / am playing them.
Two things that might easily be done:
1. Giving Bards a choice from Simple, Elf or Rogue weapon proficiency via optional override.
2. Making Bard Song a free action.
These aren't exactly big, but they're neat, and the first one lets bard concepts be more flexible. Assuming it works.
Might as well just make it elf because it's basically the same as the PnP bard proficiency.
Replacing Simple with Elf would actually be worse for bards (it's just bows, rapier and longsword), but Rogue doesn't include longswords.
I can't just give bards Elf proficiency on top of Simple.
It should be possible to give bards a choice from among the three, however.
Quote from: ScottyB;160642I can't just give bards Elf proficiency on top of Simple.
Make the override turn simple weapon proficiency into elf, then add a few choice lines in the OnPlayerLevelUp event that check for bard levels, elf weapon prof, and the absence of simple weapon prof, and then add simple weapon proficiency as a bonus feat to the hide on those who meet the conditions. Net result is bards with simple weapons + bows, rapiers, and longswords, albeit in a roundabout way.
We don't do messy hackjobs on this server.
Furthermore, your proposal won't pass character validation.
You can get a choice, which is more than you had before. Be happy.
Make it a choice, elf bards would loose out on the feature.
Hopefully that free action song goes in! It's a need touch I think and allows them to be a little more effective / flavorful without wasting entire rounds. (Curse song would be included as well ?)
Quote from: ScottyB;160650We don't do messy hackjobs on this server.
Furthermore, your proposal won't pass character validation.
You can get a choice, which is more than you had before. Be happy.
If replacing simple weapon proficiency with elf proficiency wouldn't pass character validation, neither would an override that offers a choice between the three. The resulting .bics would be identical.
Also, how is a bonus feat on an item that players never see more of a "hack job" than skill points saved in variables (EFUSS), unlabeled special abilities under player tools, spell changes without spell description changes, unused (but selectable!) core skills (craft armor/weapon), a repurposed skill that retains its old name/description (craft trap) that is redundant with a variable skill (EFUSS's engineering), or changed class abilities without changed descriptions or entries on the feat list (barbarian rage/movement, druid/ranger movement, detect evil, summon mount)?
We have been very good about getting around engine limitations. We aren't interested in having players download content, but while I know nothing about scripting, it may be possible to add the rogue weapon proficiency to bard skins. It may even be desirable.
The (optional) override will work. I know for a number of reasons, chiefly because I designed the character validation scripts myself and understand how they work, as well as how NWN handles character creation. It's not just the resulting character files that matter, but the 2DAs used by the server. Also, I have the files prepared, but I'm holding off on them in order to get DM team consensus.
[hide=A mildly technical explanation of why it was done this way]What was needed was a server 2DA set that is compatible with both the optional override and the default NWN files. It needs to work without requiring anyone to download anything. Doing a straight-up replacement will just break things, but by setting it up in a way that allows the default Simple Weapon Proficiency to be a valid option means that existing characters and new unmodified characters will continue to be valid.[/hide]
[hide=On hackjobs]A hackjob is something that uses NWN in ways that are counter-intuitive to design, and noticeably so; for example, trying to remove a feat, put a new feat in its place, and then add the removed feat in a different place (on an item), which is something that players will encounter through notifications about feat-loss and item re-equipment. Whereas with the override they will just get a perfectly normal choice of feats.
EFUSS is a secondary and self-contained system. It works the way it was designed to. It should not be considered an appendage of the NWN skills, since it works in a very different and intentionally-designed way.
Player Tools were added by BioWare, and an enterprising DM made use of them.
We are not a crafting server. It doesn't kill anyone to leave Craft Armor/Weapon alone.
I don't think we use Craft Trap as "Engineering" anymore since leaving the Underdark/adding EFUSS.
The inability to change spell/feat descriptions isn't that big a deal. Hell, BioWare's own feat descriptions are often misleading and in a few cases incorrect. Detect Evil isn't an NWN feat, so I'm not sure why it's on that list.[/hide]
The fact they don't get arcane spell failure reduction in light armor AND NWNs 3.0 bard grants them 2 fewer skill points per level hurts.
You could throw a hook in your onequip/unequips to check for:
characters has bard levels
character is equipping light armor
character has no other arcane spellcasting classes (sorc or wiz)
if all conditions are met you can apply the appropriate arcane spell reduction as a temporary effect directly to the armor and remove it when the armor is unequipped.
This is doable without haks and would be effective for all single arcane spellcasting class bards from the day updated.
Imho this would give bards a little more ability to take a hit without sacrificing one of their rare and beloved spell slots on mage armor. And in a full analysis of the low level spellcasting ability, they just don't get enough spell slots to make still spell worthwhile.
Just a thought.
If that works is it perhaps possible to add such a thing for rangers to dual wield in chain shirts? I know that's off topic but still a thought that might fit in well. ;)
In-line with making pure bards better, what about at level 5+ giving them -10% spellfailure on their own equipped armor when they activate Bard Song (for the duration of the song)?
I know as per PnP they're "entitled" to being able to cast in light armor, but this isn't PnP.
-Giving them -10% spell failture when on bardsong.
-Making bard song a free action
-Add elf/rogue weapon proficiency
-Give 3 ranks +1 per bard level to the perform skill
Make this, and bards will be quite good. But far from OP.
I support this changes.
I'm not sure it's a good idea to compare the fighting mechanics of a class that is not a fighting class. If it's a fighting bard you want, multiclass to warrior.
Sure you can't make a bard that can have all his class skills unless you invest in INT. But the same goes for most other classes. I mean, should warrior get discipline for free? Rogue sneak skills for free?
I must say, this class can cast, flank, sneak, UMD, .... and still you want to increase what it can do?
Correct.
It's in the spirit of the class, laddy. Dwarven bards should not perform, they should take the longsword and slash some tendons.
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;160728Sure you can't make a bard that can have all his class skills unless you invest in INT. But the same goes for most other classes.
The average fighter will take Discipline and Concentration as all they actually need, and probably one more skill like Heal or Taunt if they have INT or Human. Rogues have enough SP to max out H/MS and then take four more skills maxed, and they gain a lot out of having Intelligence because several important class skills use it. Both classes have sufficient Skill Points to do their usual job. Bards have 4 SP a level, one of which has to go on perform. That leaves you 3 SP and if you want to take H/MS and UMD, whoops, there goes your other two. He can't in fact get *most* of his class skills without being a Human with good INT.
A pure bard's going to want 16 CH by the time he's L7, 16 in STR or Dex for combat, at least 14 Dex anyway for some decent AC... They have to spread their attributes thin and most builds can't afford more INT points. Also a bard *is* a fighting class, take a look at their AB progression and abilities like Discipline, Taunt, and Medium Armor.
I'm grateful to ScottyB for taking the time to think up ways to implement some of these ideas. -10% spellfail on Bardsong activation is a great idea. You'd be able to wear leathers or padded and cast, just not studded armor reliably. It'd encourage a middle ground between cloth only bards and stripper-casters and underline the importance of bardsong uses. If all the points summarised by Drakill get implemented, bards will feel like a complete and well-rounded class, rather than the majority of people taking extra weapon/armor proficiencies or multiclassing them.
Finally, to anyone considering making a Tendon Slashing Dwarven Bard, I say go for it. Choosing Gold Dwarf will let you play a pure bard with 16 CHA without minmaxing, and it's great fun, especially as the dwarf hold's enjoying a bit of a renaissance right now.
We should give bards +2 ekstra spells a day. Also they should have more hp and acces to divine wands, then people would play them.
Joke aside Seriously people, Bards are COOL and effictive the way they are, do they really need MORE perks?
I played two bards (pure). Both of them were brutal and scary... The Skillpoint thing is minor enough. The free-action for songs... maybe.
Those seem harmless enough.
Forget all the other buffs of like "+10 str when bardsong..." or -100% spellfailure while wearing fullplate.
The thing is- when you multiclass, you become effective in some other domain. You sacrifice your level 3 spells which are so awesome. There are already rings that boost bards quite handsomely, already. There are advantages that you make your bard more viable for early levels, but more gimped for the late levels. The Level 8 Bard Song is a real thing of beauty. So is the level 8 Curse Song. So fun to RP killing rats or bats with nothing but your voice <_< -- The level 3 spells are awesome... Haste.. GMW... Keen..
To me, those are perks enough to make you stay with full bard.
QuoteEven as a backup pc, they are weak. and much less useful than a wizard or a rogue.
I accept your challenge, sir!
There are some who think Bards are the best buffers outthere. I am almost one of them.
I once quested with a halfling Bard that used stealth, Bard song, and taunted. I talked to him and he said that he thought his char was horribly done (mechanics wise) because he wasn't able to do well in combat (Close/Ranged). I said to him you have a bad character only if you think you have a bad char. So he helped me with Observatory and we 3 man crushed it.
Bard Songs, Taunts, Stealth, and Curse song. All things of beauty!
Quote from: Mort;160766Forget all the other buffs of like "+10 str when bardsong..." or -100% spellfailure while wearing fullplate.
O_o
Say what? The other popular suggestions were:
- -10% spellfail with bardsong up, which would stop Light Armor being more trouble than it's worth as a feat to a class that has Mage Armor available. Even leathers spellfail is a significant annoyance. I actually sold my DM loot leathers on Mister Banks because of it.
- Giving them a few extra "swashbuckly" weapons that would add variety to bards (who I rarely ever see use anything but Martial Weapons or a Spear) and they get in DnD, NWN2 but just not NWN for some reason.
Barbarians for example have been given some significant class abilities that encourage people staying true to the class. As in, not wearing heavy armor and making sure someone with the confidence to run at a enemy screaming defiance and fury doesn't dump his charisma score. Those two bard adjustments would encourage bards to make use of their class's light armor ability usually rather than intermittently, and choose flavourful weapons. Rather than "Since I get spellfail in leathers, it's not any worse to just use a chainshirt and take it off to cast up. I can always cast mage armor anyway" or "Well since I have to take Martial weapons for that longsword, may as well take Exotic and get a Bastardsword". They are freebie equpiment abilities to nudge players in the direction of classic DnD bard concepts NWN gets in the way of mechanically.
Egon is right mort. The suggestions regarding the bardsong and perform are to empower the bard, but the others are to make a flabourfull bard.
I really think the bard weapon proficiency needs a boost. Adding in Longsword, Rapier, Scimitar, Darts, or even throwing weapons.
Well bards are not supposed to be able to cast spells while using their bard song, not that NWN enforces that limitation. Any spellfail reduction is better than none though. However in this instance it will apply to any arcane spellcasting they cast not just the bard spells. As was said before there is no way to attribute the spell type.
Which is fine I will run out and make an elven wizard/bard/fighter right pronto, hold on while I roll that up :). Five rounds of no asf casting in leather armor is wicked nice.
Plus bard songs apply to the whole party so you'd have to script it so it only affected the bard and then was removed only from the bard when the song ended.
It is better imo to modify the onequip/unequip to specifically work with bards who have no other arcane caster class. That ensures that they are only using it on bard spells because they don't have any others.
And really lol bard spells are not so powerful, don't come so early and in not such great numbers that casting them in even AC 4 armor is a huge balance shift. In fact the whole class's casting ability is supposed to be balanced against that. Plus you have modified mage armor here to not help for armors greater than 3 so the potential for any overbuffing is low.
Quote from: shadowsong;160804Any spellfail reduction is better than none though. However in this instance it will apply to any arcane spellcasting they cast not just the bard spells. As was said before there is no way to attribute the spell type.
Which is fine I will run out and make an elven wizard/bard/fighter right pronto, hold on while I roll that up :).
I already said the following:
- The -10% spell failure would be added to the caster only,
- and would only be available on and after 5th (bard) level
Which is one line of code. And it becomes just a little tiny bit longer if I make it a pure-bard-only feature. (One actually has to go out of their way to
make a spell script affect multiple creatures - it doesn't automagically target and affect everything by itself.)
---
I also can't just throw on Elf or Rogue proficiency in any clean manner. You can get a
choice, though, which is pretty damn cool, IMO.
While free-action Bard Song might be kinda cool, I think the above is more important and desirable, and we shouldn't make too many changes at a time.
Scotty. you are a god amongst men. Do it.
Sounds awesome
ScottyB, King of the Code Monkeys. If it's that simple it'd be great to see, and having to make a choice wouldn't be that limiting, as well as meaning it's not giving them access to a massive amount of weapons in the same way as giving them Elf *and* Rogue.
Has/Will this -10% spellfailure change been/be done?
What LiS said.