Alright guys. Something happened some hours ago, that made me upset, for many reasons, but mainly for how I reacted to some situation that I'm not used to. First of all I wish to apologise to the players of the PCs that died in this 'event', and say I wish I could have chilled out and think of something to do other than just kill them monsters, also that I wish there is some way to reverse it, I would be okay with rping that they managed to escape bleeding and survived, something like this.
I wish to hear opinions of more experienced players on how to react to something like this, for I really think I acted bad.
Okay. My character and some others were questing. We leave the quest area, share the loot and all, and suddenly surprised by a Werewolf (Pc) and some Lizard Folk (Pc too). Our group stopped still did not know what to do when they, with no word, charged us. The Werewolf ran away and the Lizard stayed. Was beaten down. Then the Werewolf comes back and keep attacking us. We go after it and take it down. End of story, all two mosnters FDed, as we were staying completely IC, as slaying monsters seem to be the right thing to do for most characters. But then some guilt hit me, I started thinking all what the player had to go through to get some application passed and involving other characters, bringing fun to the server, etc (Although I find attacking adventurers in sight with no word a strange way to involve others), and OOC courtesy, etc.
After all happened, I also learned they were level four, plus the Cr, would be something around 6-7, but were only two, against a group of about 5 with levels ranging from 5-7. So, that was not considered 'fair', even being them who took the fight to us. (By the way, should one ask the level of the other before starting PvP?)
So, the questions are:
- What kinds of IC excuses a character should make up not to FD a mosnter PC? Even if truly ICly he would chop its head off and take home as a trophy?
- What would your character, reader, do with a subdued monster PC, other than kill it or take to show others your deed (which would get them killed too)?
I just want some hints, because in extreme situations such as these, my primary instincts are not to break rules (which I did not do) and keep ICly as much as possible (also done), but even with these two checked, something did not feel right...
It's nice to be considerate, but I'd say there was absolutely nothing wrong with what happened, from your account of it. Players make monster PCs, knowing full well that nobody needs an excuse to kill them, and people may, (and should) attempt to kill them frequently, and with great prejudice.
But you're not asking if what you did was Okay, just what you could have done, I guess? Well, if you won't accept that you have no reason to feel guilty, then here are my thoughts:
Excuses for not killing a monster that attacked you obviously depend on the character you're playing. Maybe you want to play with the monster. Take all its equipment, give it a knife, and two healing potions, and send it into the wilderness with a head start, and then hunt it.
Find out if it has a tribe, or clan, and see if you can ransom it back to them in exchange for power, wealth, or aid in your own goals.
Capture it, make it a slave, and force it to fight in tournaments.
If I were in the unlikely position of winning, or even surviving that sort of attack, and I weren't interested in FD, I think I'd put one of the monster's eyes out, to "tag" it, as it were.
A werewolf in human form with a recently lost eye is easily identified, and someday, when the werewolf is a terror to the Colony, you get to say "Aye, I took the bastard's eye when it was wee, but the cunning beast would have had my throat if I didn't stop there. It got away that day, t'my great shame, but I'll be damned if I let that mongrel cause any more trouble. It's time to finish what I started!"
Just a thought, anyway.
Ok, I am wrong. :/ Sorry Ranek
Firstly, please ignore Dash's completely unfounded post.
If you and your group were attacked wordlessly by two monster PCs you are absolutely within your right to FD them right there on the spot if you defeat them. In fact, if you didn't, it would be rather strange.
In this case, the onus was completely on the attackers. Rather than attempt to RP with you first, they chose the PvP route, failed, and then died for it. There is an unwritten clause when applying for monster PCs that you expect and can live with this harsh reality.
If you attack people you definitely do not get an 'out' (doubly so as a monster PC), the out should be given by the attacker.
I hope I have cleared this up! Do not feel bad Ranek, what you did was fine.
No, I'm not asking if it's okay what I did or not, even thinking now that it was not, but I want some hints on how to act on something like this in the future. I wish to apologize again and wish had done differently, to be honest, Kotenku's suggestions were great, and I wish I have had some similar insights in the moment. I was somewhat nervous with the whole situation, mainly due my own experience in the server, of losing all PvPs I happen to engage (willingly or not), so I now tend to do my best not to lose again, and try not to get frustrated again. I also, at that moment, could not imagine that if the situation was reversed, my character would be spared, mainly because thinking ICly could not see a werewolf and a lizard folk doing anything else than just eat their preys. (as they should). The part of having no RP, I agree, and tell you for ceartain that the whole thing was not fun for either side. What I take from this whole thing is what I'm learning of its outcome, and wish similar things not to happen again, with anyone in the server, being them the attackers or the defenders.
FD is lame unless the player wants the victim character to be ended in such a fashion. I think even if you are FDing someone then you should take a moment to consider the fact you are ending their dude. As always leaving someone alive you did not need to kill and taking mercy on them in a cool way, like not taking all their stuff or cutting off their arms, or even leaving them shit you don't want out of pity. That will always earn you style points as word gets around. Of course, monsters are monsters and should be treated like monsters I guess.
I was a part of this ordeal. I was basically going post what Caddies said, but I can't really put it much better than that. Basically, if you are going to act like a monster NPC and charge without any RP (obviously expecting to win) then you cannot be surprised when you are FDed without any RP. My PC saw the werewolf first, and to be honest, when you guys charged, I didn't realize you were PCs until I scrolled my mouse over you. Can't expect to receive a courtesy that you didn't give yourself.
Lizard was only level 3 btw :???: I think it's a difficult issue to address all in all, because if it was an NPC were- and lizard, of course you would just FD it off the bat, but you also can't subdue NPCs. We wanted to try and do something fun for everyone, and it didn't pan out. Would have been nice for you guys to at least do a little RP before you FD'd us though. It happened so fast I barely got a word out. Also, Dash did yell out before he charged in though. But hey, shit happens, so it goes. Just gotta keep movin.
My two cents:
Well, when playing a monster PC, as caddies said, you are a monster. There is no reason why not to FD inmedietly, and it would be the correct roleplay for most characters. I played as an orc, and knew i was going to be killed as soon as a PC had the chance, and i was cool with it, luckly i was made a slave, and Rual still is there waiting for his chance to shine. As a riser, if i were to be found and killed at level 2 by the palid mask exploring the enclave, if merely facepalm and go on, because i expect that will happen.
If you play a monster PC, expect the lamest of deaths posible. You do not kill, rather subdue and roleplay, but the others kill you on sight, don't care, and you have to be cool with it.
On the other hand, i always try OOCly not to kill PCs. Monstrous or not. There are thousands of excuses, but to find one that suits a character, is hard. "Convert to talos or die" or "serve us and live" are terrible ones dash, sorry, but you don't do that to a werewolf and a troglodyte.
If Ix was there, he would have abogated and let you live, but that suits him because he is a pacifist tree hugger and everyone-lover. Muultuxy is not. The only way i can think you would have lived and it would have made sence, is if the shaman would have captured to sacrifice you and you managed to escape. But then, that is option of the non-monster PCs, only if they come up with it, only if it suits their characters and only if they feel like it they will do it.
The morale? When playing a monster PC expect this to happen. When playing against a monster PC try to be imaginative, and if you can't, don't feel bad for doing what everyone know would happen.
Ranek you did fine. Don't worry. Dash, that's what happens to monster PCs. Nothign wrong here.
Ranek:
As for the advise, if your character will kill the monsters if he wins, give them chances to defeat you. For example, capturing them and allowing some chances for them to escape. If you can't come up with something ask them. Before killing a PC i always send them a tell with "Are you ok with being permaned? if not, gimme an excuse not to, 'cause i can't think of one" (at least since the first time where i cheated and got grounded) And people about to die are imaginative. If nothing comes up kill them though, if it makes IC sence. Sometimes you SHOULD kill the PCs, remeber Dram? he got killed for not killing the PC when he should have.
Knowing Muultuxy, and how you've RPed him, and with caothic evil naxx there too, clearly that was the right way to RP it out.
However...
try to make the death fun for the monster PCs. Emote stuff. Give a monologue. Let him give his last words. etc. That will make death a nice experience.
It wasn't fun dieying with dram when i wasn't offered the chance to give my last words, nor was given an explanation larger than 2 lines of why he died. However, assuming Rual had been killed at the bridge, even that would ahve been fun, after all that happened since his capture.
My cetns merely.
Just a reminder:
Quote from: "[url=http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40PvP Guidelines[/url]"]- It is legitimate to FD kill a subrace character (such as goblins, kobolds, tieflings, drow, duergar, aasimar, etc.) at any level [SIZE="3"]just for being what they are[/SIZE], if that is in-character for your PC, and you follow the other PvP rules (such as possession, hostile, etc.)
While it's always nice to give some OOC consideration and make things play out longer, monsters are an unique case. They are
monsters - that risk should be understood before a player apps for such a character, and by everyone they meet.
(last post was done before Caddies response)
Well Caddies, it was good to hear something not terrible about what I've done, and yeah, I agree that it was, within the situation 'okay'. What I feel sorry for, is no further history or plot come out of that.
And Dash, about the character I play, I know better how to RP it. He is indeed a tribal who worship Talos, but he does not live by Talos' dogma, in fact, he mostly fears talos than anything else, very supersticious, would never make friends with someone he considers 'cursed'. Well, further than that is spoils of my character, which I know you're not interested. At any rate, I think all my points are stated, but still welcome more hints or opinions
PC monsters typically have few redeemable qualities, particularly if you aren't interested in teaming up with them in their murderous escapades. The only logical solution is to destroy them whenever you have the opportunity and claim their supplies as your own.
I gotta agree as well, that in this case you have to think of consequences and unfortunately carry the result as a monster.
I would surely be intriqued and for letting these kind monsters to live, should they suddenly appear and play out intelligent forms of beings, demanding and claiming territory or something of that line.
However, if these beasts (no matter what level, if the beasts start it, you've accepted that you're low level. You could have turned away any time) attack without much of a words, it's already too much of going OOC to just subdue and leave the beasts alive. I mean, you gotta be pretty light minded character to let it go.
Courtesy is a beautiful thing, but I don't think that low level or unfortunate odds, especially when one chooses it themselves, is an excuse either to survive from taking a sudden dire risk.
The only thing I can chip into this discussion is this. When you encounter a monster player attacking you in the wilds. There really is little need to feel ooc'ly threatened, most of the time I'd say even 9/10 you will walk away from it.
A true monster should attack adventurers MOST of the time. Dialog is nice but not in excess. Please do not consider it "odd" when a monster attacks you "without a word" as its generally what makes the most sense for them. Personally I dislike 'humans' who look like monsters, have the stats of monsters, but get along fine with everyone!
You did nothing wrong Ranek as many have said before me!
Monsters attack you. You kill them. End of story. You can 'leave them for dead' maybe, but you really don't have to. We make monster PCs to have a hard time.
You're an awfully sweet person for thinking this way, but you did absolutely nothing wrong. It's okay to feel that kind of sympathy for your fellow humans, but remember that these were not humans, but monsters who deserve no sympathy.
Completely know how you feel Ranek. I hate havign to FD anyone just because I feel guilty for ruining the time and effort they put into the PC or app. But I guess if a pair of monsters decide they want to go on and attack you then on their heads be it.
Monsters are monsters, you'd slaughter your way through hoardes of them on a quest. Just because they are being played by a pc doesn't mean that you should change your pc's actions.
Admittedly it might suck to loose your monster pc. But thats half the fun, being hunted and hunting people. IMO people to need to kill pc monsters more. not less.
The priority should always be to advance the story in interesting ways, not to stay blindly IC. Giving them a chance is not only nice, but it's generally also productive to further storyline.
Of course, sometimes it's too OOC to let them go. And all stories need an ending, too. But ideally, every ending should be meaningful, and the interests of staying IC and telling a story would coexist without much conflict. Can't always be done in reality, alas.
Personally, unless there is a strong time pressure or survival pressure that makes an immediate FD of a character nessessary, I believe it is better for to stun any character first.
This isnt a rule, obviously, its just for fun. Firstly it gives you a chance to emote the player to death. What do you say over your defeated foe? Do they beg or spit on your boots? How do you actually do the deed, with gusto or revulsion? This is that characters last moments, give them a chance to emote it up with style.
Secondly, you never know what they might say. Sure, you kill all lizardmen, but how about the one that tells you it knows what happened to your disappeared father, while it lies bleeding on the floor? Do you stop to torture it? Do you take it somewhere for questioning? Does the encounter evolve into something more interesting??
None of this happens if you reach for the kill button too soon.
I have to be honest, I agree with Scrappayeti here. I think it's only fair to extend out their death, and allow some roleplay in there at least to make their death fun if possible. Sure they're monsters, and I don't think anything was wrong with killing them. However you'll wind up with a far more memorable bit of RP if you do this instead of just FDing them before anyone gets any real chance to respond to anything.
I had an Orc Pc jump me when I was in the farmlands. When I'd beat him to the floor I hit him FD till he died, apologised and moved on, but it struck me later that I could've hit him once doing what effectively would be stabbing him once in the chest, assuming he had died, and walking off.
I would've preffered to have hit him lightly in Fd mode and left it to chance and that's probably what I shall do next time I encounter a early levels PC monster.
It's all well and good to say "You wouldn't not kill a npc Orc, so why treat a pc different?". You probably wouldn't hit an Orc, that you'd knock to the ground, repeatedly until you were sure it was dead, you'd stab it in a vital area and move on.
I think that Barehander put it ideally, it should be kept in mind that ultimately that shit is done for the fun of others along with yourself
It's up to the monster. Having played numerous monster PCs in the past, I know there are a number of ways to try and attempt others to give you an out.
One of my monster lied and told that he poisoned someone and was the only one with the cure and so if you killed him, that person would die. The others were cool enough to roleplay it and I managed to get away.
Another of my monster said he had captured hostages in a cave nearby blocked by a rock. If you let him live, he'll lead you to them and you can be a hero. This didnt work and I was killed.
etc...
If the monster PC is low level and you had basically no fun or trouble in bringing him down and might not want to FD him right away. Just try to play along with the story he might give you. Your character can be 'purposely' incompetent one time. I dont know how many times my NPCs have 'tripped' or started an argument together while letting the PC prisoners run away. You can do this for your fellow players too.
By all means, you have the 'right' to FD but finding clever alternative that make SENSE for your character (i.e. trying to save hostages) to it are always excellent in my book. Gets you major point from the player of the monster PC, and builds trust for future encounters... i.e. the player know that you dont have a MUST WIN attitude and it just makes everything else awesome and more chill.
Hope these idea help.
Oh yes, good points. Everyone who's DMed D&D (NWN or otherwise) knows it's sometimes best to make the NPC trip. It applies to DMing, but it rightfully should apply to playing as well: if your interest is the story for everyone, not your personal success, you can suck it up and play dumb a time or too. But just like when DMing, don't overdo it: letting players get out of jail free, time and again, takes away the risk and immersion.
Balance in everything, I guess. Thus spake Captain Obvious.
Personally as someone who has been playing a monster PC as my main for 3 months now (wow, just had a realization on where my last 3 months have been), the possibility of getting permad is just around the corner every single time I log on.
With Grommet I quickly found his little "niche" in the game, and he has been far more fun for myself and I believe others for being conniving and intelligent. Yes there have been many times that he has been jumped walking around the colony for being what he is without the RP thought of "the kobold is here and the guards are pissed, but not attacking him... something must be keeping the thing legal." However I do not hold it against anyone who has just plainly gone after him, so long as their was some attempt at roleplay or some thought behind the matter.
In short I think that if you are in the woods and monsters jump you and pretend to be monsters, you have all right to pretend they are monsters and kill them quickly or slowly to suit your desires.
And for the monsters, werewolves are intelligent, starting conversation to catch them off guard or assess their strength while your companions move into position is not far from difficult for me to imagine. I hate to go against other monsters but it seems that this was sorta your fault by attacking and expecting ooc courtesy because you have a floating name over your head.
Mort's suggestions are awsome. I'll add another.
If the Monster PC says he is a slave of some patrician and you will be charged with 2000 gold, he might have a chance to escape.
"I've hidden a great fortune, somewhere, if you spare me, i'll give it to you, if you kill me, you'll never have it"
"help me, a witch cast a spell on me and i was truned into a monster... i can barely controll myself, please save me"
Or simple beg for your life. Rual was allowed to be enslaved because he, unlike other orcs, begged, and people saw he was weak and easy to manipulate.
Quote from: Mort;162153One of my monster lied and told that he poisoned someone and was the only one with the cure and so if you killed him, that person would die. The others were cool enough to roleplay it and I managed to get away.
Another of my monster said he had captured hostages in a cave nearby blocked by a rock. If you let him live, he'll lead you to them and you can be a hero. This didnt work and I was killed.
Man, I miss Mort PCs.
I was also there for this ambush/FD event.
Few comments, we did nothing wrong server-wise. Monster PC's are meant to be pursued and/or engaged with the same ferocity that we would NPC monsters.
However, I share your remorse for not having done more on the RP side. With NPC's it seems silly to RP with them since they dont respond, but with PC's its more fun, you get to interact with them.
There is no server rule about this, so its, of course, its an OOC courtesy, but the Monster PC's that were attacking should have also considered RPing before they attacked.
It was unfortunate for them that we were all walking in a line, so they probably only thought that there was one person there to attack and then the rest of us showed up a few moments later, one at a time.
But nothing was against server rules , but hey, we all learned from this and will handle it more creatively and colorfully next time! :-)