So, basically, what I wanted to discuss is simply this:
In my eyes, a paladin is a "divine champion" of his deity. They are "Lawful Good", but because they follow Law, but Code. In their eyes, their Code would surpass the Law by massive amounts. I personally don't feel a Paladin should lose Lawful points if he simply threatens someone that is against his God.
For instance; If a Paladin of Selune was nice and courteous to a Lycan (we're taking a werewolf here, unshifted), he'd break his code. However, if he threatened him, and sought to kill him, he'd lose Lawful Points.
Personally, I don't think this makes sense.
A paladin is someone whom was picked by his deity, to uphold the dogma and use the dogma as a code of life. A paladin would sooner kick the bucket than lose his code. So in turn, I think they should only lose Lawful Good points if they break Code, or a law (such as murder).
A paladin is similar to a monk in that they hold a certain Code to heart. Would a monk lose lawful/code points if he did something his Code would ask of him, or if he broke his code? I think simply put - if he broke his code.
Comments?
I think you've sort of a weird view on the whole thing. Upholding the code is ideal, but it falls down to the individual to how he/she does it and if he/she does it. I'm sure you will only lose enough lawful/good points for it to matter if you are consistently breaking your code.
QuoteFor instance; If a Paladin of Selune was nice and courteous to a Lycan (we're taking a werewolf here, unshifted), he'd break his code. However, if he threatened him, and sought to kill him, he'd lose Lawful Points.
Selune has non-evil Lycanthrope followers. Why would he be breaking his code for being courteous to one?
I am pretty sure I witnessed the event that sparked this.
If you are running around blatantly accusing people of being evil and announcing it publicly that is slander, which is not chivalrous in the slightest, and thus breaking his code. Hence, Chaos points.
You should definately work against evil, but to go public and announce you're going to kill them and such is definately a chaotic action. If you're going to threaten them to cease the error of their ways you should not do it in public, pretty much.
I advice to read up on these links in regards of paladins:
Paladin Class (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260%22)
Divine Class duties, expectations and restrictions (//%22http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32474%22)
There's two different things to keep an eye out for when it comes to paladins: alignment and code. They're only vaguely related. The paladin code does not necessarily dictate what's Good and Lawful, but special requirements the patron/church has imposed on the paladin. These may be things such as courtesy, honor, or poverty. Failing to uphold them will result in Falling, but not necessarily alignment shift. The paladin's path is much narrower than that of Lawful Good in general, and I imagine most Fallen paladins in fact remain Lawful Good and just failed in some other aspect.
I'm not sure if there is a Fallen status outside of alignmentshift on EFU:A, though, is there?
That said: never trust paladin guides written by others. All the relevant information is in Revised Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (2e), the Player's Handbook and the Forgotten Realms deity books. Read those carefully and make your own conclusions.
I fail to see how this is a suggestion.
Another thing to keep in mind that I won't explain in depth is that "paladins" are not divine champions of their deities. "Divine champions" are divine champions of their deities.
I don't really see what's not to get as far as alignment/code goes. If you break the code you're obviously not lawful or upholding the oath you took and don't deserve to be a paladin. If you do evil shit you're obviously not good and don't deserve to be a paladin.
I think the question is the difference between moral code and the code of law. If a paladin breaks the law but is upholding their own diety's code, does it count toward their fall? Also lol'd at derflaro's post count, it's 666. this topic is cursed
Well I mean, if they are considering those things enough, I imagine that the desire to be lawful is there. It's probably more of a case by case basis.
This is all explained in nauseating detail in the posts Talir linked above. Really, just take a moment to read it. If you have any specific questions then, please feel free to direct them to a DM. But this is just waaaaaay out of the ballpark.
At the end of the day, though, it boils down to this: which deity is granting the paladin her powers? Different deities have different codes and expectations. A paladin of Baravar Cloakshadow would be expected to use illusion and deception, whereas a paladin of Hoar would have to go vigilante if the local authorities did not respect the principles of fitting punishment and poetic justice, for example. Mind that I intentionally picked rather exceptional examples, because everybody knows how a paladin of Tyr, Torm or Lathander is supposed to act.
I'll put it to you simply then. Paladins never break the law. Regardless of their code. Regardless of the justness or validity of the law. They do not do it.
They work to change unjust laws. Paladins are not vigilantes. They do not use trickery. They do not lie.
Further more, Baravar Cloakshadow doesn't even have paladins.
And Hoaran paladins would find a lawful and -legal- method of exacting their justice. Most likely as Magistrates and Judges.
Please, stop arguing ignorantly and inform yourself with the info that has been provided above.
FYI, Baravar Cloakshadow DOES have Padins.
Faiths & Pantheons Web Enhancement: Do's & Don'ts, lists a Paladin order of Baravar Cloakshadow. Similarly, he is NG. LN, NG and LG deities all have Paladins, with the CG exceptions of Sune and Corellon Larethian.
I call Shenanigans. Unlawful God of Trickery and Illusions with paladins. Makes no bloody sense.
Well there have been a number of paladins of Baravar Cloakshadow in EFU (including one played by myself). There's even a paladin order "Knights of the Shadowy Cloak" that is specific to that deity, with various IC references to it sprinkled throughout the EFU module and various EFU plots. So I call double shenanigans!
Also disagree that paladins wouldn't break the law, it depends on the situation of course - every paladin will always seek some kind of legal framework - but for example in a situation of extremely unjust laws I could easily see paladins, if reforming the laws is impossible, seeking to create their own separate legal system with people they trust which in the eyes of the authorities may be considered "vigilantism."