EFUPW Forums

"Monks don't need improving, they really are good with 20 buffs active on them"
 
"Your monk can be great if you have limitless amounts of potions and gp to blow"
 
Tired of hearing these things, I suggest the following improvements for this underplayed and weak class.  They are pale imitations of abilities that monks get after level ten.
 
level five, get the Resist Poison feat for free (replaces poison immunity at 11th)
 
level seven, the compentance bonus Still mind increases from plus two vs mind-affecting to plus four (compensation for missing spell resistance later)
 
level eight, gains permanent 20% concealment (compensation for not having empty body ability)
 
 
These changes would make monks more like the game intended them to be : worth a damn without having to have a fulltime buffer.

I know this is going to have the hell bashed out of it, so before the swarm descends, Id like to say:

I support this strongly.

In all honesty, 20% concealment seems like too much. An extra Dodge AC could do with, Monks commonly having a somewhat low( For this sever!), 17 AC on average.
 
Added: Everything else seems fine to me, though!

20% concealment is way too much, and +4 to mind saves is unnecessary.  Monks already get good saves for all of their saves and wisdom is already a primary stat for them.

The Dodge Feat and Resist Poison would be fine though.

Quote from: Gullible Righteousness;90437In all honesty, 20% concealment seems like too much. An extra Dodge AC could do with, Monks commonly having a somewhat low( For this sever!), 17 AC on average.

20% would be strong, yes.

Id say +1 dodge ac (disabled in armor, of course) and 2/- damage reduction  would be far less overpowered.

Monks are so-so if used right and great mage killers. And yeah, we all know they're great with 30 buffs cast on them; they benefit from buffs a lot.

I would really like to see some Monk improvements. I don't really like the idea of compensating by Monk loot because I don't see it fit the setting that much, but that's just my impression.

I'd propose something like

Level 1, Dodge feat for free
Level 3, Resist Poison feat for free
Level 5, +2 Flat Bonus to Dodge AC, or instead Mobility feat for free
Level 7, 5% concealment (even 5% is really, really good; maybe too good)
Level 9, Spring Attack feat for free

I think none of these are too much.

I don't like the idea of Damage Resistance though, that seems like it should stay with the Barbarians.

-- This all said, there's no real need for all classes to be balanced, and I wouldn't mind if no changes are made. It'll force Monks at lower levels to play very carefully and remember their weaknesses and strengths. However, that isn't everyone's cup of tea.

I would like to see the monk class improved and most of these changes (the less powerful ones) sound good.

Well, let me first start out by saying that Monk is easily my favorite class followed by a close 2nd of Ranger. That said, I may be slightly biased.

I don't think monks are -that- weak. At least not as weak as some of these posts might lead you to believe based on the suggested changes (basically ignoring 20% of all incoming attacks?).

Monks could definitely do with having some 'flavor' buffs added to them much like Rangers and Barbarians received. It does often feel strange to me that monks AC is so low compared to your run of the mill warrior with a shield and rusted chain mail, their ability to dodge attacks is pretty lacking unless fully buffed.

I don't believe -any- class should be balanced around the idea they are walking around 24/7 fully buffed unless they can cast the buffs themself.

I've always hoped that someday the DM's would make some improvements to Monks, but most of the time that seems to come in the form of loot.

One thing I have generally not liked about monks...is that in melee combat, they end up playing like rogues unless you build one specifically to be a front-line brawler. In that I mean you really can't/shouldn't try to tank anything, and instead abuse your tumble to quickly get out of melee and re-engage once the enemies have latched onto other PC's. That's fun, it's even very monk-like to some degree, but I would like to think that a monk could also dodge enough attacks to be able to stay in the thick of it when they need to.

To that end...perhaps monks could get expertise at level 3, and improved expertise at level 7? Or maybe only expertise at some level. Their AC has always felt a bit too low to me. I don't know. Just tossing random ideas out.

I will agree with one thing, much like Barbarians, many of the Monk's *core* defining abilities are simply out of reach, realistically, and should likely have some weaker version given to them at lower levels (kinda like how barbarians get damage reduction at higher levels, but not until much higher level, so they get a weaker form at lower levels to compensate and give barbarians the 'feel' they need).

Ok, wall of text over.

I believe the collective EfU community has proven sufficiently many times that monks certainly do not need any extra boosts.

Monks are strange when compared to other classes.  They are better equipped to survive encounters than most characters are, but this only relates to their enhanced speed and ability to resist ranged attacks (via Deflect Arrows and high saves).  You have to be willing to run quickly and frequently to enjoy any success, because melee is where you are the most vulnerable.

I am fighting very strongly to not be sarcastic and be civil. But I must say, I disagree to the extreme.

If you put a ranger, a wizard, a fighter, and a monk naked in the Underdark, who is going to win/survive?

The monk.

Monks are good and they cost NOTHING to get it. Then, on top of that, they get healing like a Paladin's lay on hands, attacks per round that CANNOT be beat (flurry), a useful stun attack, amazing saves, Improved Knockdown, decent AB...

... FOR FREE.

In the old setting, they were on par with every other class, maybe a little sub par. Now, with the new economy, monks are better than ever before.

I suggest they get stoneskin(7) 10/day at level 5 and perma haste.

Quote from: Snoteye;90505I believe the collective EfU community has proven sufficiently many times that monks certainly do not need any extra boosts.

I agree. In the old setting. In the old setting with buffs and consumable bloat, monks were nearly unbeatable if used right.

It's still possible now, but with much less consumables, it is very, very different on EFU;A, imo.

I think a tweak is on order, but no concealment, lol. That makes no sense.  Monks naturally get a dodge bonus based on level.  I think just increasing this dodge bonus is sufficient enough of a tweak.
 at +5 this is already at +1, at +10 it is +2.  I think at level one you should get +1, with 1 AC for every 3 levels would be fine.  At level 9 you would only have +4 more AC, it's certainly not imbalancing.

The trade-off for the monk is that you're subpar when unbuffed, and overpoweringly good when buffed. Monks have already received a huge power increase with Magic Weapon/Flame Weapon variants now being cast upon gloves; I severely question that they need to be further improved. The argument that monks need this boost to keep up with regular fighters when completely unbuffed is made void by the fact that no fighting on EFU:A is generally ever done without buffs. You're basically asking for monks to become excellent when unbuffed, without shedding any of the wild benefits they receive when actually buffed! Sometimes you can't have the best of both worlds.

I only suggest that they get the dodge feat for free. Anything else is over-powered, I mean, After all, MONKS ARE GODS WHEN BUFFED.

From 18 AC to 32 AC, NO other class can do that.

I think it's also generally desired they are sub-par, considering that monks are meant to be somewhat uncommon, and they are like, naked and punching things, so they should really lack in some ways in comparison to armored berserker with big sword

Also combine this with all the pretty insane monk specific bonuses Garem stated, and they seem pretty powerful and such

Monks gets a ton of extra feats already.

Are you sure their AC is that low? A fighter with splint mail + large shield and DEX 12 has AC 19. A monk with WIS 14, DEX 16, Tumble 5 and +1 Monk AC has AC 17. Not much of a difference.

But realize that monks has an extra attack, similar to dual wielding. Compare them with a dual wielding class, like rangers. Dex 16, Studded Leather. AC 16. The monk has better AC, lower HP, but a few more extra feats.

Monks is the only class that have IKD at level 6 and for free! Fighters can have that at level 8, and paladins/barbarians/rangers can get it only at 9. That's a huge advantage.

I don't think monks are intended to be ubber tanks, even though they can be when fully buffed, but are supposed to have a supportive role in a party, with well rounded stats, which they are already.

If you find trouble avoiding getting hit, you can still get the Expertise feat.

Besides, monks are not warrior classes. They can be put to other uses.

I'd go with poison immuity at lvl 6 or 7 since they won't get to lvl 11, but that's about it.

Well, considering that on other servers and the OC, monks get easy access to robes with AC or DR added, and on EfU, other than gloves, there is very little monk gear, and only one set of robes I've seen with any defensive power. Much like the "ranger shop", a "monk shop" selling some +AC robes, Monk trinkets etc at reasonable prices would fix that.

Possibly more common monk gear with balancing drawbacks. Say a set of robes with -1 Wisdom, but +2 AC. That would be effectively +1 AC as it would knock off 1 from the Monk AC Bonus. It would also lower the DC of Stunning Fist. The trade would be offensive power for defensive power.
Robes with 2/- physical DR, 10% Fire vulnerability?

Since the balance is buffs, maybe no mechanical changes and common 1/day Monk gear or good charge level monk gear? Robes or gloves with 1/day Owl's Wisdom (1) for a boost in a pinch?

Basically, monks bite it a lot in my experience/ If you buff them up they rock, but you need to think to prep Owls, Grace etc, and most things rock buffed anyway.

I have half a mind to just lock this; while we encourage suggestions (and especially discussions about them), that monks should be unfairly balanced compared to other classes at this point is simply absurd. And we don't want monks to be next month's fighter/rogues, either, as derflaro pointed out.

Everybody has his or her own outlook on monks and each DM has his or her idea what being a monk consists of. Without a good idea of what the DM’s here qualify as monk it’s hard to say which (if any) bonus feats would be best. I do agree something would be nice as canon monks are set to be mediocre fighters at lower levels catch up and become about as good as fighters and barbarians at mid levels and don’t mess with them even a little bit at upper levels. Being that a PC in EFU of double digits is considered damn near epic I would agree the class needs a touch of help. From what I have gathered while playing monks on EFU they are to be considered by book karate types that need to learn their new techniques for each level. They are not to be considered [COLOR="Blue"]street fighters[/COLOR] (//%22http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfeK5xvZcDo%22).


Personally I think instead of adding two or three new techniques to the class maybe loosening up on the reigns a bit would be nice. There are literally hundreds of different martial arts forms out there today. From your typical karate and judo to Jeet (Bruce lee) and street fighting. There are weapons only arts and never use a weapon at all arts. Each art has its own style and therefore may or may not use or even want some of the feats that the monk package offers in the first place let alone adding bonuses to poison saves. An art may teach don’t get bit is the best way to not get poisoned thereby adding a feat like dodge would be a much better choice. I’m not knocking anybodies idea here, I’m trying to add to them and just using resist poison and dodge as an example.

What I would love to see done to assist the EFU:A monk would be to at say a lower level 2 through 4 give the player a choice of one bonus feat to pick out of a list of offered feats. Similar to the fighter bonus feat, only use a choice of feats suitable for monks. Maybe use all the feats listed here as the choices but the player only gets to pick one. This would make the monk a bit more unique being that he wouldn’t have all the same feats as every other monk. It would also reflect that there are differing types of arts of which offer things other than what everybody else offers.

Hope this doesn’t get the thread locked; it is only a simple suggestion.

Lately all I see is crying on the forums.  Monks are great, infact fantastic!  If you want them to have mega AC and tank... take the feats and take the time to get the gear.  If you want to deal damage, take those feats and flank.  It is so sad when everyone wants all the classes to be the same and equal.  They are not and for that reason have their own unique qualities.

Monks can be roleplayed in so many ways.  Also on a side not I played a very successful monk on EFU and she had no issues tanking or dealing damage or even had troubles surviving.  With all things, use your brain and imagination!

I have played a Monk/Sorcerers, and he effectively tanked trolls with a wimpy group. While we in the end retreated, it was quite a fight.

dead horse so beaten ugh

Any class, if made correctly, can be very strong. Monk especially. Theres two types of classes:
-Classes where when made right are awesome, but when not made right suck supremelly.
-Classes where nomatter what you do, it's tough to be anything higher than above average, but you you will at least be below average.

Monk, Wizard, Druid, Bard and Rogue can be put into the first class (pures, no multiclass, or things get easy, once you multiclass, your character gets put into the second group)
Fighter, Barbarian, Cleric, Sorcerer and Ranger are easy to make. For instance, most fighters choose (at level 1) Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Toughness/Knockdown (cut exotic if not a human).

Anyway, I completelly agree with making monks slightly stronger. I'd say the above suggestion by Vlaid about giving them Expertise at 3 and Improved Expertise at 7 is very reasonable. Many of the monk's abilities are also high level abilities that would be impossible to get on this server because of high xp penalties on death (Which I am not complaining about, I like how we get smacked with a 1/3 xp penalty when we die, makes people think twice about going into harm's way, plus, we die, I'm glad it's not a permadeath whenever we die to some random monster).

But the thinking of 'oh, well, they're really good when they are buffed up' is just not right. OF COURSE they are good when they're buffed up, every class is. It's tough not to be tough to kill when you get a +5 to all your key stats, mage armor, stoneskin, death armor, barkskin, invisibility and haste. When someone starts attacking you like that you had better pull out your own invisibility potion and run like hell, if no invis potion is available, you might as well drop your pack and zip up that bodybag yourself. NO CLASS should have to rely on potions to be in any way useful.

At the same time, as far as roleplay goes, giving monks weaker versions of their higher-level abilities makes sense. Monks believe in achieving perfection over a long period of time, though careful training and meditation. Therefore, it stands to reason that monks would slowly gain their powers, rather than suddenly being able to turn invisible after their 5000th kill, maybe they should be able to turn slightly transparent after their 100th, and as time goes on, they get better at it, similar to Monk Speed and how their unarmed damage, monk ac bonus and flurry of blows improves, until they can turn invisible at whatever level they can turn invisible at.

To powerful. Mage armor potions cost 40 gold and are easy to get. A feat like Dodge is simple and reasonable to implement.

How very interesting! I've always found the monk class in EfU and Arabel to be somewhat underpowered. Then again, I am no good whatsoever at playing something that doesn't have forty HP at level three, but that's not my point. It really is hard to get beyond level three/four, for me at least, without dying horribly. The monk loot is not available down at those levels, and for good reason. You don't get a bastard sword with Bonus Feat: Kill Everything at level four, and you shouldn't. However, I think the monk 'does' need a little helping hand. None of this AC boosting stuff, or concealment, no no no. I like the stuff about the little fringe feats, the stuff that ups your saves. The monk has always been amazing for having high will, fortitude, AND reflex saves. Dodge also seems very reasonable, as does resist poison. I liked whoever-it-was's idea of having a list, similar to the Fighter Bonus Feat list, that Monks could access. Perhaps at levels four and eight?

Please do not lock this thread, I think some good stuff is going to come out of it.

And all of you player types? Don't give them a reason to.

QuoteOF COURSE they are good when they're buffed up, every class is.

Actually, that is not accurate. Every class is good with buffs, but Monks benefit from more buffs than any other class. They can get any +Wis and +Dex for extra AC and Mage armor works for them, where a fighter wouldn't.

I think monks are pretty balanced feat/skill wise. You can't ask a monk to get more extra feats when they already get a bunch. Six feats extra just at level one. And an average of 1 extra feat per level. That is more than a Fighter which may be the second class with more feats in the game.

Sure they don't get to use Bastard Sword, but they get the same damage at level 8. And they have an extra attack similar to dual wield. Now which Fighter can dual wield Bastard Sword with just -2 AB?

You also forget that Monks have Stealth. Fighters don't get stealth and use heavy armor.

Monks are pretty good as they are. Perhaps could use a bit of custom equipment, but there are other classes that are underpowered compared to others, like barbarians and bards.

I would trade a monks wisdom AC bonus for an enchanted suit of leather any day of the week. And it’s just my opinion but a monk could kick just as well in leather as he could wearing a dang dress (monks robes) that seems to be so popular.

I’m not sure where you guys are getting all your gold, but I wouldn’t spend 40 of my hard earned gold to buy a potion of mage armor. Hell none of my PC’s has ever had more than 400 gold at one time. I’m obviously missing something because I find gold to be worth its weight here, so either share where the Aztec gold treasure trove you are all spending for all your buff potions is or don’t consider buffs in the equation. We're talking basic as~is class features, not buffs.

Lets take a survey and pretend you are trapped in a pit with a single basic Nightriser. Your 3rd level character is alone, completely out of buff potions and cant run away!
Which of these fighter type classes has the least chance of survival at 3rd level with no buff potions, (just basic 3rd levelish gear)?
A) Fighter
B) Paladin
C) Barbarian
D) Ranger
E) Monk
F) Cleric (of a warrior god, not a kiss your face off god.)
G) Druid
H) Bard (with a fighter build and fighter spells)

Whichever of these warrior types wins this survey needs help, plain and simple. Because they should all be able to win this without buffs.

Of these choices I think D, E and H are going to say, “Oh shit!”

My personal opinion would be E due to being on par or worse with the lowest AC, HP, BaB and no spell or song capabilities. (And don’t try telling me that a monks wisdom AC bonus, monk speed, cleave or deflect arrows is going to help this poor monk.)

A free dodge or weapon focus unarmed feat could be the difference of life and death for this monk.

Don't make me post another inventory screenshot, gold is not hard to get, consumables are not hard to get. Monks are fine. Dozens of folk can attest to having pages of consumables.

Only a retard (read: low wisdom) monk is going to be without his own personal supply of buffing items, fortunately monks are generally wise fellows. Could it be that you have to be WISE to play a monk successfully? Crazy.

Funny part is, with the fact that there are so few monsters with dispel magic in efu:a and no magic eaters, monks are stronger than ever, as it's always been a case of "dispel to kill" with monks.

Only A, B, C and D are fighter types.

The others are supportive types. And the bard would do worse than the monk with it's cantrips and low AB/Armor.

Calling a monk without buffing items a retard is pretty retarded, actually. The monk may not be able to get the consumables very easilly because he is low level and hasn't been around long, he may not know where to go to farm those consumables you seem to have so much of (and yes, farming, if you have dozens of potions that you use constantly, you are spamming quests over and over again and not roleplaying much, or if you do RP a lot, then it is nothing other than "Well, word on the street is that more troglodytes are down at the beach, let's go kill 'em for the fiftieth time this week." followed by random battlecries as what is now a 24str/con fighter with ac 27 and damage reduction goes around slaughtering troglodytes). You CANNOT say a class is balanced compared to other classes because he should have some consumables, you simply CANNOT, the logic is flawed, severelly. It promotes farming spawns and only gets in the way of good RP. If you think monks are fine the way they are right now, not being able to use half of their abilities, while all the other classes keep most of their abilities, then you need to come up with something better than 'they should just spend 40 gold on some mage armor potions'.

Quote from: Sr.N;90820Only A, B, C and D are fighter types.

I’m sorry, my bad, I also included the non-fighter druid, warrior priest, monk and bard to the Nightriser survey question also.

By the way, if a monk isn’t a warrior type, what type is he? Spellcaster? Rogue? Cleric? If you say rogue then open that lock or disarm that trap for me please. Just because a monk has stealth doesn’t make him a rogue, rangers and bards have stealth too yet the ranger can still fight and the bard can cast spells and use bard song. If you say cleric then turn that undead cast a divine spell or use domain abilities. I think most people that have had martial arts training would debate that monks are indeed fighter types.

And btw, most fighter types can do the 1d10 or 1d12 damage thing at 1st level not 8th, so using that doesn’t help your debate at all. It’s actually part of what us “whiners” are talking about.

Per canon rules in a PnP environment I agree the monk is fine the way he is. The trick with a PnP monk is getting him to survive into double digit levels where he becomes almost if not more formidable than a base fighter. Here on this server I seriously doubt you will see very many 10th or 12th level monks running around and if you do, would spotting that monk an extra feat make a difference at that level? Quite honestly I don’t see how this could hurt anything and it would only help the monk survive EFU:a.

Like I said before, a monk is a well rounded type character.

It has medium HP/AB like clerics or druids. Round Savings. Even as a RP role it is similar to cleric and druids, in the aspect of being mostly wise characters. (although their view of the world differ).

It also has stealth and unique abilities that differ them from other classes. Pretty much like bards can sing, rogues can disarm trap/pick lock, rangers can track, etc, Monks have stunning attacks, extra speed, evasion, still mind, immunity to diseases, KD/IKD for free, self heal, and a bunch of feats that give extra attack - flurry of blows, cleave and circle kick (needs to expend a feat).

So yeah, they might not be as good as a fighter tanking without buffs, but they are good on other stuff that fighters aren't.

QuoteHere on this server I seriously doubt you will see very many 10th or 12th level monks running around and if you do, would spotting that monk an extra feat make a difference at that level? Quite honestly I don’t see how this could hurt anything and it would only help the monk survive EFU:a.

I sincerely think the monks could fare better if some monk items were added. Stuff like monk robes/pants/kimono/whatever, boots and gloves to add a bit of AC/AB/Dmg. Something they can sink their gold with, since all other classes do that.

How is this monk thread not dying?!
WIS bonus to AC
Monk dodges your thread kill attack
>:|
Bevause, Monks are not casters, and claiming that they -should- rely on buuffs is insanely non-jakie chan like
We want to play kung-fu, damn it
Jackie Chan uses wires.

Solution: Gif wires.

Wait.

If we cant keep debates civil and call people indirectly or directly, "retards", it's time for the good old lock.


Don't know if I'm alone, but I think Monks aren't weak. Best # of attacks per round for our magic level, permanent +1 fists at level 10 (in our magic level, that is huge), best saving throws, stealth skills, TONS of extra feat (Cleave, knockdown, improved knockdown, arrow deflection, etc.), Improved evasion for nice AoE spell dodging, increased walk speed, a free ability to stun mages/rogue or whatever, no 50lb + 40lb tower shield to carry in order to have AC.

It's also one of the few classes that do not have ONE obvious weakness aside from their low HP (d8 isnt too bad, however) when you want to assassinate them. They have stealth so they are hard to hunt. They have high saving throws so they are hard to disable. No other classes have these two perks. Yet despite all these advantages, they aren't Gods (except in 40 levels PvP servers). Which is good. And good enough for now. Speciality shop will come in due time so just wait a bit.

There are tons of both interesting and effective concepts you can develop with very little limitations.