EFUPW Forums

At request of Derf and a few other folks in IRC I thought i'd post this here.

Applying for a faction is already a process that requires time, effort, and energy into a concept. Adding the requirement of IC recommendations is more or less eliminating of the function of apps.

There never has been a "Set guideline" for how you have to jump through hoops to get recc's so this creates a veritable nightmare of processes.

A few examples of things I've had to do now, and in the past, to get Recc's in underdark and EFU:A

Quote- Pay a thousand gold
- Spy on a faction that could kill me if caught
- Spend a week patrolling a hostile area
- Develop an alchemic recipe
- Write a report on destroying Lower
- Collect witness statemetns from 4 PC's in opposite timezones from me

This is just a short list, but it honestly can create a lot of headache. A PC already has to wait for DMs to get votes passsed. Having to jump through arbitrary hoops to "EARN IT IG" is a nuisance at best and a strong motivator to end a PC in a headache at worst.

Earning it In Game forces the player to interact with pcs. but it is a headache for OOC and IC as well...i guess

Not sure what to say. I don't see why this is a problem, as I believe in earning what you get. I don't see why app should automaticly mean you get it and right there. I also don't see how it could be done without application, because the factions pose some level of responsability and it's good to have somekind plan on how to proceed within the faction.

I'm open to hear suggestions, but in my personal opinion, I am not favoring removing app's, nor removing the need to earn it IG. Application is only a notification of your plans for the spot. The IG part is your actual test.

Quote from: Paha Poika;168450Not sure what to say. I don't see why this is a problem, as I believe in earning what you get. I don't see why app should automaticly mean you get it and right there. I also don't see how it could be done without application, because the factions pose some level of responsability and it's good to have somekind plan on how to proceed within the faction.

I didn't say it should mean you get it right then and there. _PCs_ having direct influence over another character in a position like that though is ridiculous.

If a PC says "Do this", and you say "No", it usually ends poorly for the PC and doesn't matter with the faction PC in the slightest.

There are ways to earn what you get beyond having to bend over backwards for other PCs.

I do believe this can be frustrating for new and older players but I believe it is a necessity. You have a good point Rwg but also we must gain bonds and trust with the faction too.

Quote from: Dreadfang;168453I do believe this can be frustrating for new and older players but I believe it is a necessity. You have a good point Rwg but also we must gain bonds and trust with the faction too.

Trust can be gained from the grizzled pallid mask veteran dragging the first-day greenskin into hell and back. In fact being forced to work with PCs you have to -get to know- as you work with them could lead to deeper RP than some bogus screening process and frivolous or deadly tasks.

"Take the new guy to get suited up and show him the ropes in the Sunken Enclave" beats "Please spend four days accomplishing a task so I can write your name on a forum"

That is what I mean with earning. The whole point is that life is not fair. it is also RP and part of the story to face those trash-pouring douschebags, like derf seemingly has been while he's been recruiting. You can't ignore them either. If you feel it's crappy, you can always try and contact NPC over their head to get it done with, or RP it some other way. It's frustrating sometimes, but it's not meant to be easy.

Faction members ain't fun to have around either if they are run over character who people don't put effort into, enough to use time to win their situation over. If they are some two week old characters, people get left out when they go and run out of their time-span and have to deal with aftermaths of possible situations regarding it. My point being, even if folks are needed, if they can't use the time and effort in wanting to be there - well eh. I'm tough in these situations, but if that's the case, then too bad.

Quote from: Random_White_Guy;168454"Take the new guy and show him the ropes in the Sunken Enclave" beats "Please spend four days accomplishing a task so I can write your name on a forum"

This is the sort of thing that is unfortunately true more than not. People have this sort of greater than thou or my time is worth more outlook sometimes, and it's annoying.

I think it would be cool if people would always try to take a moment to realize we're all people playing a game for fun. (myself and people I trust with this shit guilty of this sort of stuff at times as well)

Of course we could pretend it's a necessity for some reason.

--

   

QuoteThat is what I mean with earning. The whole point is that life is not fire. it is also RP and part of the story to face those trash-pouring douschebags, like derf seemingly has been while he's been recruiting. You can't ignore them either.

Don't think anyone denied you don't need to earn it, nor is it a big deal if characters are uncharismatic. So long as they care for the fun of the other player while portraying something cool, it's all good.

QuoteIf you feel it's crappy, you can always try and contact NPC over their head to get it done with, or RP it some other way. It's frustrating sometimes, but it's not meant to be easy.

No, you can't. A PC recommendation is commonly considered necessary.

QuoteFaction members ain't fun to have around either if they are run over character who people don't put effort into, enough to use time to win their situation over. If they are some two week old characters, people get left out when they go and run out of their time-span and have to deal with aftermaths of possible situations regarding it. My point being, even if folks are needed, if they can't use the time and effort in wanting to be there - well eh. I'm tough in these situations, but if that's the case, then too bad.

I guess that's why they bothered to get an app approved. 'Too bad,' the ultimate retort to someone trying to play a game and have fun with you.

Having been through and conducting numerous applicants for factions. I honestly have to say that the decision was almost entirely occ. It was would I enjoy playing with this character or player. In the watch I specifically set about ruining the opportuniies for opposite aligned characters with in the faction. It was ic, it was done ic and in ic ways and it didn't always work--but. Honestly I would have preferred a harder app and less frivolous assignments. The fact that the assignments can cause strife was cool... Sometimes.

Tracking down players and chatting with them for an hour really doesn't seem necessary anymore. Assuming the DMs that approve the app are uptodate on the IG situations.

I should mention that I have been in situations where I had ic approval without an app. In some cases in the underdark I had people with overwheling demand to have another pc in the faction despite them failing to get an app through two or three times. I was always wondering what side of this matters? The pcs that are actually running the faction, or the players ability to forecast their own progressiveness. Doing this entirely either way could work, and if a dm handles such then it's most fair. Especially in factions with internal strife--it's not like the pcs are the recruiter for dm factions anyway. It's always their boss with the final say.

Of course, icly there still needs to be an ic transition from not in the faction to inside it. :/

How often do you like EVERYBODY you work with? Your boss decides who to employ. Not you. I think having a faction where its possible people don't necessarily like each other is a positive thing rather than a negative and the current process kind of makes that almost impossible!

I have always been in favor of having newer members accompany me on things for a time and judging / fixing their behavior rather than sending them off on a random task or charging them a thousand gold. I remember getting into some internal conflict over such a thing infact, ICly, but I'd much prefer that it be done in an inclusive way rather than a "don't bother me until you can do something useful" way.

Inter-faction conflict and inner-faction conflict ftw.
 
I want to see some Lawful Evil Pallid Masks getting on the nerves of those Paladinly Pallid Masks!
 
Get a big mean bully of a Stygian who gives Aaron noogies!
 
My point being, if you need a recommendation from each person in a faction before you can join, it's difficult to create an interesting arrangement of characters, because to get a recommendation you'll typically have to be liked and similar to those you're trying to get a recommendation from.
 
Just some thoughts I had.

Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;168460How often do you like EVERYBODY you work with? Your boss decides who to employ. Not you. I think having a faction where its possible people don't necessarily like each other is a positive thing rather than a negative and the current process kind of makes that almost impossible!

It's whole lot possible. That's why I said, that if some character is a douche that goes around making people miserable to get benefits for himself, in IC manner you can always try to go to someone else, in the last resort, even NPC. There is no such thing as needing recommendation of everyone. They are all low class soldiers, members or what ever. If one of them favors the recruit and passes good reasons, the two other can cry all they want and leader may still want to take the aspirant in.

Naturally it's aimed that PC's are in control, but sometimes it might prove quite good to shaken them up with contacting their leader.
Or in other case, just earn the respect, not their liking. If you just go against the guy arrogantly, sometimes that's all it takes.

I'm so saidly hardcore in one part, and that is playing and reacting to the characters actions and behavior to the last bit, and doing it in character. If that means going over their head, going to other people, so be it. Naturally it doesn't work for everyone.

Having apped for a noble recently, and talking with the DMs,  I learned that they are keeping their cards close to their breast when it comes to New Houses.  

What is going to be done has already been done, and best of luck to anyone who seeks out that path.  I do not mean this to get anyone to choose a different route, but as I have heard It's not happening right now.

Quote from: Paha Poika;168513It's whole lot possible. That's why I said, that if some character is a douche that goes around making people miserable to get benefits for himself, in IC manner you can always try to go to someone else, in the last resort, even NPC. There is no such thing as needing recommendation of everyone. They are all low class soldiers, members or what ever. If one of them favors the recruit and passes good reasons, the two other can cry all they want and leader may still want to take the aspirant in.

Naturally it's aimed that PC's are in control, but sometimes it might prove quite good to shaken them up with contacting their leader.
Or in other case, just earn the respect, not their liking. If you just go against the guy arrogantly, sometimes that's all it takes.

I'm so saidly hardcore in one part, and that is playing and reacting to the characters actions and behavior to the last bit, and doing it in character. If that means going over their head, going to other people, so be it. Naturally it doesn't work for everyone.

Most of the time the response to trying to go around pc's is negative. My characters never "aspire" to get into a faction. They "aspire" to do great things whilst within one. I think thats where we differ.

I don't think becoming a low ranked grunt in any faction should take a massive amount of work outside of the application. Progression within a faction should be difficult however.

Having asked a DM about this in IRC, the answer was - If you are approved for a faction, and it takes more than a week of persuit IC for whatever reason, you should contact a DM to hammer out the situation.

IMO, faction applications are OOC. IF the DMs approved you, even if Joe "oldest member of the faction" Schmoe doesn't like your character, they are just another player. I am not in favor of players being able to completely cockblock another player for something like DM faction membership.

These are DM factions, run by DMs, with members decided by DMs. Sure, there should be some manner of going through the motions IC, but if your app is approved and some player is being a dick about the recommendation, that is not cool.(http://www.google.com/favicon.ico) (//%22http://www.google.com/search?q=are%20first%20and%20foremost%20OOC%22)(http://www.babylon.com/favicon.ico)(http://www.qtl.co.il/img/copy.png)(http://www.google.com/favicon.ico) (//%22http://www.google.com/search?q=IMO.%22)(http://www.babylon.com/favicon.ico)

I remember a particular situation in which a certain Pierre Dougstein was unable to join the Numinous Order for over a month due to PCs shitting all over him. Not cool, imo.

I am certain most people in factions have agendas of their own and would rather recruit people they could consider allies rather than people they believe will put a clog in their cogs. That said, there's no need to keep people on a leash and demanding piles of compiled reports and hoops, but even in RL, sometimes you need to polish some boots. Certainly this can be done in a way that is fun for all parties involved and when in Sharboneth I tried to make the "testing" process more creative than having them write reports, but as Elmo can testify, it wasn't quite sucessful.
 
As for Pierre Dougstein, since you raised the issue Halfbrood, I remember that he would disappear for days/weeks. It is equally frustrating for recruits wanting to join factions to not find members to interact with, as it is for members of factions to have recruits vanish.
 
If PCs makes your life difficult, go over their heads.
 
I also believe that if the faction is somewhat empty, it is possible to apply to start as a member in the faction, hoop free.

As for the time issues, definitely. I agree that massive lengthy times to keep people hanging is mean. That is something I do not do as a person, so I can't play any character that does it either. If it's up to me, I usually like to take someone with me to see if my character gets on with them and if they are useful in some areas, or hand them a task that I see is good way to find out their strong points.

That naturally depends totally how fast the player is to handle the situations, or if he is on at the same times I am, but I would imagine such is done within a week, two at most. Even in couple days if we are playing at same times.

I also had a character that was approved to join the Old Order, Wyatt Smithson, but during this time the Nightrisers killed off every PC I had interacted with to get my 'Earn IG" PC approval. Also the campaign against the rot unfolded and the character was basically left in the with only application approval and no supporting PCs to post recommendation for him. It was painfully discouraging having put time and effort into the character.

I do remember contacting a DM or two, but was told to continue to 'Earn IG' but I believed to have already done enough to earn. I moved on though.

Ok I believe perhaps i should comment on this being a victim of this when the sons originally set up.

I generally see the app as ooc, but once approved. It really should be the faction pc's job to get the new guy inducted. However, after tryign and failing for a few days on franco, i wrote an IC letter and nudged a DM or two on IRC.

EiG is subjective, and if there are plenty of active pcs making an effort to induct you then i say its on you to get it sorted.. However if there aren't then you should ask the dm's. They want to see their factions filled too!

Nobody garners as much hatred while trying to join factions as myself. I have like a 3 page recruitment file for my Spellguard PC. To get a recommendation I immolated a higher level Spellguard PC in the Pissing Crone and leveraged her disguise / life vs getting a recommendation. Why? Because the task she gave me to get her recommendation was: Captured Aleczumberziel.  Even with these really ridiculous hoops I think that it is very important to earn the right to join a faction ICly. It is up for the faction PCs though to make it interesting and not just some really random or impossible hoop. I've heard horror stories of excellent players quitting their apped PCs after they've been given stupid tasks: CLIMB THE MOUNTAINS AND KILL A MIST OGRE NAKED WHILE COLLECTING ICE CRYSTALS AND DON'T USE INVISIBILITY. This is obviously not desirable.

Also, UnholyWon -- Wyatt Smithson was not yet ready to join The Order. He was very much a boy that needed to do a bit of maturing / dogma reading before he was ready.

From time to time there are spies in DM factions. The IC recruitment process is a chance for those spies to hoodwink the faction PCs into letting them join the faction.

Also: Faction PCs should be recruiting heavily.

-Every wizard should be involved with the conclave.
-Every badass, even hated ones, should be asked by PCs to consider the Armada.
-Every low level chump that passes through The Docks should get talked up by The Sons as a possible recruit.

If they don't fit the faction teach /them/ how to fit the faction. Recruit ICly. Those are the best PCs. Props to Capricious for having a PC take a very meandering route to join a DM faction. There have been very few PCs join factions lately that were not apped for those in advance of creation. This to me is silly, and creates a less dynamic faction and world.

Again, I don't mind hoops. I don't think anyone agreeing with the OP says you shouldn't prove yourself, nor do I think this is the specific fault of anyone within the app/faction joining process. Obviously there are exceptions to certain sentiments and bad shit is going to happen every once in awhile, which is fine.

I have fun writing apps sometimes, and joining factions sometimes. Though, more often recently, I sort of see the actions of some PCs/DMs contradict the desire to fill up factions.

Quote from: GippyI've heard horror stories of excellent players quitting their apped PCs after they've been given stupid tasks: CLIMB THE MOUNTAINS AND KILL A MIST OGRE NAKED WHILE COLLECTING ICE CRYSTALS AND DON'T USE INVISIBILITY. This is obviously not desirable.

Being the one who came up with this. The idea was for people to gather a group to help them ascend the mountains of mist... Make friends, join the faction and rock out. Not just go and solo the mountains like rambo (which some people did >_>)

So long as the goal is tasteful, isn't absurdly hard or will take a long time to accomplish. Be creative.

Make it easy and interesting. You don't even have to like the char but if you think he would work well in the Armada then give him the mission still.

Its not your chars decision to let him in but rather their superiors. If your char thinks they will do well in the Armada but you do not like them still invite them in anyway (And have your character hate him forever during his run)

What I usually do when recruiting for a DM faction (as a PC) is meet them, ask them a few key questions about why they want to join the faction then set one quick task (beat me in a duel, deliver a report on an incident, survive a few scripted quests with me, whatever suits). I'll then say I'll think about it.

Later, when I hear the application is approved from that player, I usually give the recommendation (unless I suspected the PC is a spy or will become a personal enemy in which case I'll do everything I can to ICly cockblock them joining).

Quick and easy!

I have personally been at the recieving end of an absolutely ridiculous hoop I had to jump through to join a faction, which ended up with me quitting the character because it was basically impossible for me to join the faction.

Make it fun, make it fitting, get to know the character. It's much better all round when you're interacting with them personally than when you send them off to do tasks with a bunch of random people.

If the app fails

There are a ton of hoops and every valid (key word being valid) argument I've heard is pretty reasonable.
 
Yes, the process should involve more ic. Yes, timezones are a pain in the ass when you've apped and you know you can't even interact with the pcs you want for a week.
 
I'd just like to point out getting booted/rejected by a faction is by no means a dead end. I know sometimes it feels that way, and sometimes when you have a character's heart set on a certain faction it's hard to adjust.
 
Still there is alot you can do. Join other factions, become a spy, go on your own.
 
I've been accepted and rejected in equal measure by just about every faction nameable. When I got rejected by Spellguard (after my previous character had been in) I turned my rejected guy into a rival and had alot of fun.
 
My main point is this, you don't "need" a dm faction. They are fun, and if it works great, but try not to put your character on a "I MUST BE IN THIS FACTION TO COMPLETE MY GOALS." I know that's what the app says, I know that's what efu promotes, but the most sucessful faction ppl I know had great goals before joining, and those goals were just enhanced by said faction. Just don't push the square peg in the round whole, as we say.

As a recent ... victim (for lack of better word) of this for joining the Armada... getting a task or hoop to jump through was difficult at best.  My new PC was to gather patrols to capture those mugging people in the ruins between the ziggurat and docks.   While Nightrisers patroled the area on a regular basis at night.  That being said, the worst part was getting time to "get-back" with the PCs in questions; it was a NIGHTMARE.  10 days after the app was approved, I gave up on the PC simply because the hoop jumping was near undoable, and talking to established PCs within the faction was simply impossible.
 
I think PC interaction is important to join a faction.  I think those already within the faction have an obligation to assist others joining if they don't want app approved appointed PCs from the DM team.

Yes. It is amazing when faction PCs give you tasks that they can't complete themselves! 12, you were a victim.

Personally I don't like the idea that a successful application means you can automatically get into the faction. A successful application means you imagined a character awesome enough to get into one, great, but that doesn't short cut the process of the actual RP.

I have had the opposite, which is considerably more annoying (accepted IC rejected OOC - such a difficult thing to RP).

I think that you should app for a faction because it is clear your character is heading that direction due to IG events and meetings, not just because it would be something nice in the future.

If your character is determined to get into a faction without friends, why not bend the rules? Sure they asked you to go ogre clubbing naked to prove your worth, but might it not be easier to simply blackmail them? How about staging a mugging, then fake rescuing them at the last moment?

The characters story arc involves the recruitment process, and it should be as fun and complex as the actual experience as a member of the faction.

I find it difficult to consistently come up with new and interesting ways for people to prove themselves, some people have just helped with tasks throughout the day and I've learnt enough about them to be satisfied, others I've been suspicious of and it takes me a while to trust them and others are hard to find and process.

On several occasions  I have been informed by DMs that regarding the Stygians, just because he has been approved it doesn't mean I should usher him off to the initiation test.

I'm saying something here that I want to see from applicants.

You, sirs, are selfish as it is. You need to earn the place, like any other work or spot in organization. Don't throw the full weight on others.

You can keep pushing and throwing your earned honorifics and achievements to the PC's of the faction and be active on your own. You might get a task, but you know what? The work in pursuing this task is just as easy way to get in as succeeding swiftly - Bring information, report, make effort in some way, or other, be active.

I ran around certain PC's feets for two days almost non-stop, helping him and being with him in bringing people in. Good way to show what I can do, what my character is like and what he can achieve.

It's your own bullhead style if you go on the task and spend ten days on without reporting anything or letting the boss know the hard situation. I reported all that kind troubles, and I noted the situation and in the end we were at it together, not just me alone.

When I was playing DM faction PCs, I had a very easy way to determine a recommendation. I had a chat with the character, see how he did in a spar (which was pretty much just to do it, not with much weight put into the result there) and find a task that somehow was related to what he had spoken of earlier. Find that extra part of the concept where the strength lay, not in mechanical strength but concept wise. If he was an investigator, either have him relate upon the process he used to investigate or task him with an on-going investigation to see how he did during a short time. In the Armada, it was to successfully fulfill a contract on another's behalf and have the giver tell me of the performance. In the latter months I spent in the Watch, I took the applicant out into the streets to hear what the citizens had to say about him and watched his performance on the streets.

I wanted to find that special thing, special flavor of the character that makes him unique and have him show me this through a task.

You don't need all the PCs recommendation to get in. It is preferable that you have spoken, even just briefly, to the various PCs within the faction so that they at least have an opinion about you. Even without the backing of the majority, you still have a chance of being recruited if one of the higher ups requests it. If you cannot reach the players in-game, make a letter on the forums.

The recruitment process of getting recommendations is not something I'd like to see change. It gives everyone a chance to get to know your character prior to his induction and you to get to know them. Generally, you should approach the faction PCs before writing the application and once you get the result of this, you should have managed to get one or two recommendations, making it just a few more days to get in. Any longer than that and I strongly urge you to try to reach the faction PCs again. If you are facing an almost impossible or insane recommendation test, feel free to approach the NPCs with it (sparely). While promotion is the big factor within some organisations, the various demotions are vast and numerous to sufficiently show the disfavor of not getting new blood into the faction.

If the faction PCs' characters don't like your character, it is perfectly fine for them not to recommend you. So watch how you show yourself. Regardless, there should always be a task to gain their recommendation.

In this process, take some time to learn each other's character and what makes him/her different from Fighter #2681 and try to offer a task suited for this to show both his trustworthiness of words and who that character is.

There is always the option of not jumping through hoops. If the Watch PC you talk to says "Go to lower and kill a man called Montezzi and you're in" say, "You go kill him" and walk away. (been there done that.)

As far as apps, if you want in bad enough keep re-submitting 99 times untill you're finally playing the PC the way somebody else want's him played, or say to hell with it and go another direction with your PC and play him the way you want to.

Preach it, RIPnogarD.

Still dislike hoop jumping.

I agree with Paha Poika here that the applicant should be as active as possible in joining the faction.  Lets face it, they (current faction PCs) have something you want, not the other way around.  
 

Quote from: Paha Poika;168862- Bring information, report, make effort in some way, or other, be active.

This however is extremely difficult when the effort put forth is not a mutual sharing of the load.  A PC giving a "hoop" to jump through, must try equally as hard to be accessable to the PC recruit in question, or frustration will set in.
 
Taking an honest look at the situation I referenced earlier I see things that could have been done on both sides to make it work.
 
 For instance on my side of things:

• Never once used the forums as a means to communicate.  That is a fail on my part.  I only went with trying to link up IG.
• Gave up.  Maybe 10 days was a bit short.  Other factors can have an impact on this as well.

Faction side improvments:

• A quest that was doable for a 4 - 5th level PC.  Not a capture the bad guys and bring them too us thing, since we can't.  Now, I understand the RP that was desired at this.  Gathering a group, doing patrols, helping citizens - all part of it, but the end result was extreme difficult.
• Availability.  After IC given up on the task, and with every intention to report failure (after being mugged once and beaten another time), getting a hold of the "Hoop Giver" was impossible.  IG Tells, Sending Systems and sitting at the Citadel all met with failure.  (Again, perhaps forum use would have helped minimize this).

So, that's my honest assessment that both sides could do to make the situation more enjoyable for both faction PCs and potential recruits.

QuoteLets face it, they (current faction PCs) have something you want, not the other way around.

While some factions members view it this way that is not the way it is meant to be. As one of the dms said, the Factions "Should" be as eager to increase numbers, therefore power, and status as they should personal goals.
 
Alot of pcs just get in and ignore recruiting, it happens. I rarely see Palid Masks or Stygians making recruitment sendings anymore, for example. When I know for a fact at least 2-3 of them are online almost all day long.
 
Again, it is the way it is. Yes avaliability would be good, but in reality the only way that changes is to recruit more people. The sons are a good example. They originally had no one, and everyone had to app (and did), then they had a handful but it was a active handful, now they are more or less empty again.
 
Just remeber if your in a guild, the more people you have, the more attention your guild gets. Or so it has been in the past.

people still pretending that everyone wants hoops to not exist at all

lol