I understand paladins on EFU:A get Detect Evil. While it is the worst design decision ever, especially since it's implemented different than it's supposed to work (instant, pin-pointable, no saves, no potential stun?) and none of the traditional counters are available, I can live with it. Even if it means my cleric cannot use the bread-and-butter level 2 Undetectable Alignment spell available to your local priest everywhere.
What I find rather bothersome is how some PCs use it, however.
A paladin is sworn to a few things: honor, lawfulness and goodness. This imposes some restrictions on how they should act, regardless of what they can do.
It is quite possible for a paladin to toss around Detect Evil at will. But is it appropriate of them to do so? Should a paladin use Detect Evil on every passer-by just to check their alignment? In fact, is it justified even to use it on a business partner or companion who has given you no reason to suspect them of anything but outstanding moral character?
I daresay it is not. It is neither honorable, lawful nor good to pry into someone's alignment magically for no reason. The paladin is committing several breaches of his code when he does so:
1. He uses his god-given powers irresponsibly and at whim. They are not given to him so he could rely on them in any situation. This is why the paladin needs Sense Motive and Wisdom: to use his good, mundane judgement whenever possible, and only to resort to divine means when necessary. Secondly.
2. He is suspicious without reason. This is not virtuous, it is paranoid. A paladin ought to let actions speak for themselves and not subject everyone to scrutiny at first meeting.
3. He is guilty of slander or gossip if he announces his findings. A person who happens to be evil at heart but has never done anything evil or, more importantly, has never been witnessed doing anything evil is not a criminal. Therefore, it is unjust of a paladin to ruin his reputation and life by accusing him of an abstract "state of mind".
4. He is guilty of a gruesome breach of privacy. Without warning or provocation, often without informing the target at all, he is taking a peek into their very heart. No divine mandate gives you the right to do that. It is not Good or Lawful and it is certainly not honorable. It is perhaps the most dishonorable thing you can do to a person. Here I return to the provocative topic title: it is equivalent of rape, and worse. Not only do you strip an individual of their privacy without consent, you take the moral high ground to tell someone what kind of a person they really are. How would you like a preacher looking at you on the street, and for no reason other than his moral obligation, walking up to you and telling you're an evil person?
Mind you, I don't claim that all these points apply 100% to all paladins. There are different paladins of different gods, and every situation is unique. But I am quite sure at least one or two of them apply to most situations, and therefore you should really think before you act.
Therefore, my thesis is that a paladin should never use his powers without great consideration. Detect Evil, like Smite Evil, should be used when you are sure it is what your god expects of you. It should never be the "easy way out" - the life of a paladin should be challenging. Is your companion truly evil or not? Do you have enough reason to suspect his corruption that you'd be justified in attacking his privacy and looking into his soul? If the paladin stopped to think about the implications of his actions, he'd find himself using his powers much less. And if indeed a paladin doesn't think about these things, he should be quick to Fall.
Am I completely wrong? So right it hurts? Maybe I have some good points, but it's not so simple? Discuss, flame, fall at my feet.
I like the ability, yet I agree that nearly all paladins I find do what you say. It is highly annoying and is nearly slander as you stated. Most of your points make alot of sense to me but in the end it comes down to the player and how they handle it.
You have a point, but here is the thing.
A Paladin May not Travel or Aid any being Who is EVIL.
He cannot do this, uphold his oath (Which said, this oath holds precedence over the others) if he cannot detect which person is good or evil.
That said, there -are IG methods of Blocking a Paladin's Detect Evil-
It is used alot, and mind you I have no idea what the pen and paper intention was but normally I see this:
Group, 4-5 people, alignments CN up to NG
Random Evil person everyone knows joins said group. No real reason to think said person is evil.
All know him, greet him, hang out.
Random Paladin wanders down and asks to go. (and is never rejected.)
Paladin joins.
Paladin points out random evil person, and that others shouldn't take them.
Paladin gets a quest, other 4-5 go, etc.
If this was rare, sure, but I've seen this happen 4-5 times in a single day before. Not that's it's right, wrong or indifferent. Just way it is. Evil gets shiited on alot if the server has paladins. No doubts about it. It involves alot of you sitting in town and not being invited on quests.
That said, I always think wiping out all active paladins is the best soultion.....:twisted:
There are simple ways to counter Detect Evil and stuns for failing your concentration check against really evil characters/entities.
Additonally, you're not prying into anyone's privacy but Evil people, so I think Goodly gods would be pretty OK with that. This has been gone over and over, in any case -- personally, I think DE is fine as it is. Regarding telling people about others being evil, etc, the Divine Class Expectations thread is worth a look if you'd like to read about how paladins are expected to behave on EFU.
There's a huge misconception here: a paladin may not knowingly associate with evil beings. If they ever find out someone is evil, they must cease all business with them. It is absolutely alright and common for a paladin to travel with a nice, lawful and normal person who's never given any sign of their foul character. In fact, paladins who lead armies probably lead dozens of evil people. They will work with people who've given no reason not to trust them, instead of magic scanning every guy they come across.
When it comes to picking your closest friends and allies, it gets different. A paladin would probably get to know them, interview them, and if he had any suspicions, use his ability. Maybe. But even then, a paladin can be fooled and shouldn't be held accountable for something he had no reasonable and honorable way of foreseeing.
And about prying into privacy: you are prying into everyone's privacy. You don't know beforehand if they're good or evil. You look into the depths of their heart even they don't know about, and decide their fate. Even if they ping non-Evil, you still did it. You defined them, you defiled them.
As for the ability itself: in PnP, it takes several rounds and at first only tells you if there are any evil auras in the vicinity. Then it tells you their number and whatever. A person with evil items on them would ping evil aura. Aiming it at a crowd wouldn't identify a single person from there.
If there are ways to conceal your alignment, that's cool. It's not on the cleric's spell list as it should be, though, which is a bit especially for Trickery clerics.
Quote from: 'Barehander"I understand paladins on EFU:A get Detect Evil. While it is the worst design decision ever, especially since it's implemented different than it's supposed to work (instant, pin-pointable, no saves, no potential stun?)
It doesn't always pinpoint who is evil. And Stunning happens. (s much FUN) ;) You just aren't evil enough.
Quote from: "Barehander"and none of the traditional counters are available, I can live with it. Even if it means my cleric cannot use the bread-and-butter level 2 Undetectable Alignment spell available to your local priest everywhere.
What a coincidence, we do have lots of counters! Including a handy dandy level 1 spell called protection from Good. And for any of you FOIGers out there, this isnt a secret anymore. There are other ways as well, but those arent so free to talk about.
Detect Evil was always at will. Its at will because its suppose to be used all the time. A Paladin knows who is evil, tricking them is possible but its not simple. Even still they may not want to work with you, CN rebels arent typical paladin buddies either. However, working with evil is absolutely forbidden by the paladins code. A code that extends of rights to privacy of sin. They are freaking Inquisitors, its their job to read you soul.
Quote from: Barehander;169062But is it appropriate of them to do so? Should a paladin use Detect Evil on every passer-by just to check their alignment? In fact, is it justified even to use it on a business partner or companion who has given you no reason to suspect them of anything but outstanding moral character?
Yes, yes, and yes. Lawful good is not lawful stupid. Paladins are aware their ability is not infallible and that pretending can be very useful for certain parties.
You're obviously not completely wrong, as it's all a matter of opinion. But I'd like to make my own points against these!
Also, there are ways IG to hide your alignment and ways that almost everyone can achieve.
1. You say he uses them irresponsibly to find evil doers. Then does he not use Smite Evil irresponsibly to kill evil doers? Does not a Cleric use his spells when he could be simply fighting? The point is, every Paladin is an enemy of Evil. All tools used to battle evil are tools that should be used as often as possible. He must use these not just to go "THAT MAN IS EVIL I SHALL SLAY HIM" but to suss out those who are trying to trick, those who are hiding, ready to strike against the innocent. It is fully acceptable for them to use it on everyone in my eyes.
2. It is not suspicion, it is a taint of the soul laid bare to them. It's not as though the Paladin is going around running background checks and finding out everything that might be of guilt to every person, it's looking at something that, to them, is present. Evil is a literal thing and a Paladin can see it on people, clear as day. They do let actions speak, in many cases a Paladin can come to respect in some ways one or two LE individuals.
3. There most people agree. You are guilty of slander and gossip, yes, if you go around going "JIM IS EVIL DO NOT TRUST HIM! HE PROBABLY KILLS BABIES" but then again, it is a Paladin's duty to interact with evil to stop it, whether warning people against the hidden snake, fighting the big bullies and helping those who made poor choices onto the path of redemption. Few Paladins simply use it to offend evil dudes.
4. Here, I don't think you're right. He is not looking at why he's evil, how he's evil, what made him evil or any of the details; he is simply seeing what is, literally speaking, a little black marker upon his soul. Evil people are literally, physically evil and that can be seen upon them by Paladins. It is not a breach in privacy to see who might be a threat, who ought to be watched, as it would be to protect the innocents. And the reason they take the moral high ground is because evil people are not generally those who have taken a different life choice; they do not go around disclaiming the adulterer, the petty criminal, the con artist.
They focus on those who are actual threats to society due to doing things that solely harm other people; evil are necromancers, murderers, killers, destroyers. It is similar to a repeated offenders list, to know who are the real dangers and who are just not nice people.
It is not an easy way out, it's simply a tool for seeing what may otherwise be impossible; a little help from the Gods to otherwise have a chance to find the Assassin from the Thief, the Tyrant from the Monarch. It is, for the Paladin, a little warning, and in my eyes should be used upon everyone. It is not forcibly unraveling their history and their very being, it is looking on the cosmic database of the world and noticing who's been Naughty.
A Paladin should of course think about the dignity of the soul and the harm in simply going "THIS DUDE IS EVIL" or ganking a gentleman for having a taint, but I think you'll find few don't consider this. But again, a Paladin would not be doing their duty if they let a potential killer slip by because they wanted to reserve some small dignity of his.
My opinion of Detect Evil is that it should be used on everyone; and although the results should not be used to create an IC smackdown upon the character, it is equally silly and unlawful to just ignore the fact you have a tool from the Gods that can be used directly in helping to protect the people.
I hate faerun morality. :( Real good and Real evil ruins the whole black and gray fun. But whatever its a game for smashing shit, so polarized teams is a good thing.
Paladins could accomplish more good without it. That's my only argument against DE in general :P
However, since they are oath-bound to not travel with or aid evil in any manner it is a necessary tool.
Detect Evil isn't supposed to be used "all the time." Paladins don't just "see who's evil."
And to move to a higher level from this gut feeling, I have a canon reference: in the Knights of Samular paladin order, one of the highest-ranking officers has in fact fallen years ago. He is now an evil Blackguard of Cyric. He lives among paladins every day, and nobody has a clue. I think that's evidence enough, but I could probably dig up more incidents from the books.
Antonin: on their oath not to work with evil, see my post above. They can do that if they have no reason to suspect their companions, they simply must not do it knowingly. Obviously, this means they should strive to keep an eye on their companions, but not to scan them magically.
In EfU Paladins can see evil all the time.
And if they tried really hard you can be evil in a good faction, but it takes a lot of effort. Not just donning an outfit and running out to slay the commoners with a different sword.
What does that mean, on EfU paladins can see evil all the time? It's an ability you have to consciously activate and focus on for several rounds. Why would the standards be any different than in the rest of the Realms? And even if you renounce the normativeness of canon material, it's still no argument to defer to "EfU authority" or server tradition.
There's plenty of ways to counter detect evil, from concealing yourself to confronting the detector over it.
Evil has a variety of significant advantages in general. Detect evil definitely has it's annoying/boring downs, but it's just a necessary part of the setting and paladin class by this point.
Some paladins misuse it, but how many things can you fault for that, honestly?
Quote from: Barehander;169076What does that mean, on EfU paladins can see evil all the time? It's an ability you have to consciously activate and focus on for several rounds. Why would the standards be any different than in the rest of the Realms? And even if you renounce the normativeness of canon material, it's still no argument to defer to "EfU authority" or server tradition.
Its a couple seconds to concentrate, another couple to wait for you to type something, another half a second to type /c detect evil, and thats not garaenteed to find them.
This is a Non-cannon server. Its close, and based of the realms but its no PnP. It cant be, its an online server subject to scripting limitations and automated to function without continuous dm oversight.
Detect Evil is a natural ability for paladins here. And they are in fact, required to make use of it. How they use that information is of course much more subjective.
That Knight of Samular that you mention, Barehander, has a feat called "Veil of Cyric" that prevents him from being detected by DE. However, that's entirely irrelevant to this discussion -- EfU:A is decidedly not PnP, and it's barely the Forgotten Realms as things stand.
There are ways to foil DE, and while a paladin shouldn't blindly scream "this man is evil" for everyone to hear upon seeing one, it is most certainly not unconscionable for a paladin to utilize his gifts whenever he possibly can. If DE was meant to be conserved, the gods wouldn't allow you to use it an infinite number of times each day.
OK, I was mistaken about how it actually worked. I saw no rolls, no emotes and no rounds of concentration, so I assumed it just worked infallibly. That's not my gripe, either.
My gripe isn't about Detect Evil per se. It's specifically about the misuse of the ability that you admit. To provoke some thought and make people consider it carefully the next time they use it. It may be necessary, but it's certainly not as necessary as its frequency suggests. It's almost always poorer RP than finding out the traditional way. Nobody's saying you can't use it, but you probably would have more fun if you didn't always resort to it straight away.
It hardly matters whether we're PnP or Forgotten Realms or something else. The arguments are the same regardless. You can't hide behind the excuse of "this is EfU" and escape the responsibility of justifying your stance. Nothing is set in stone in canon FR or homebrew servers: you still have to keep checking whether the decision you made is justified and smart.
But anyway, I don't mean to say "this is how it is." Rather, this is one way to look at it, and it should be thought about. There's never a single "this is how it is" with anything in the world or in this game.
I don't have a problem with the way DE is implemented here, however I'd like to dispel the myth that Protection from Good is a good counter for anyone but spell casters. The duration of potions simply is too short for it to be practical for blocking DE in most instances. I know, I've tried it.
Now a spell caster, especially one with Extend Spell, can certainly use PfG to hide their alignment rather effectively. Non-spell casters just need to deal with the fact that the paladins are going to know that they're evil.
That's were you are wrong. Detect Evil is currently used EXACTLY as meant for canon. For a campaign, the paladin could use his detect evil ability at all times as soon as he meets anyone.
However, in a persistent world, this can be somewhat problematic as the amount of people is amount to a small town such that most people know most people and so on....
As for your Blackguard of Cyric anecdote, Chosen of Cyric have access to a feat that grant them immunity to DE. Faithful of Cyric also have talismans, rewards for his faithful to protect from DE... A blackguard of Cyric would certainly have access to that.
Protection from Good protects from DE.
Clarity protects from DE.
Lesser Mind Blank protects from DE.
Some items protect from DE.
I would rather have Paladins being rare and prestigious than nerf DE. As I see it on the server, Paladins stupidly break their code by confronting strangers and insulting people that register as evil without have any proof, evidence, and so on. That's written in our faith guide:
QuoteCourtesy
A paladin must conduct themselves with a modicum of proper behavior. They are expected to be respectful of others. A paladin who routinely spreads slander and speaks ill of others behind their backs could lose powers. A paladin who engages in street brawls could lose their powers.
This does not mean a paladin has to be a nicey nicey patsy, they just must behave with a semblance of dignity. They are the 'elite' representatives of their faith and are expected to act as such.
For example, a paladin of Torm who spreads words around town about how much he hates a local Banite, and spreads tales about his ill behavior without proof, could lose powers.
On the other hand, if the same paladin openly speaks plainly of foul deeds comitted by the Banite, and urges others to be cautious against, or take actions against, the Banite, is fine.
Slander does include the overused "YOU ARE TAINTED". If someone walks on the street and tells me I'm tainted, I tell him to go fuck himself.
Seems to me you do raise a valid point, however, it is not a server design flaw -- but a paladins, in general, not respecting their Courtesy Code.
Personally I love DE, it propagates some good RP. You might miss the occasional quest as an Evil guy but you also get a public enemy to work against; an immeasurably awesome trade-off.
Oh, I don't mind DE - well, I think it's stupid and ruins RP 95% of the time in general, but that's just my freeform storyteller speaking. I'd be happy with no alignments at all. I don't mind the implementation now that it's clear. I want to provoke thought about paladin players personally use the ability, and why. Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but I think playing a paladin is much like being one: you have to think about it all the time, seriously contemplate whether you'd really do X in good conscience and consider it Good, all the while reflecting that off of your deity's dogma. You should never fall back on old answers, because a paladin is never ready, never there yet, always on the way.
The PnP version is an at-will cone of the character's field of vision that persists as long as the paladin isn't doing some other action that disrupts their concentration (they're free to walk and talk, but need to make concentration checks if they enter combat or some other disruptive action occurs).
Ours is an at-will, one-shot radius that requires a concentration check in combat. (Cones are a pain to script without spell/item target locations, and pseudo-heartbeat scripts cause lag.)
Personally, I'd like a paladin's eyes to glow white for a few seconds after using DE, but that's just me and I just think it would look cool.
Quote from: Mort;169090If someone walks on the street and tells me I'm tainted, I tell him to go fuck himself.
Reminds me of a homeless guy I encountered outside the L station last week.
Please remove detect evil so my chaotic evil cyrcist blackguard can quest with my friends paladin. It's okay cause I do all my blackguardery when he's not around.
Also if you can't do that please make it so that I can conveniently never use detect evil around my friends evil pc I can still quest with him.
Oh and add some items/make protection from good protect against it. Oh wait it already does...
Quote from: Barehander;169076What does that mean, on EfU paladins can see evil all the time? It's an ability you have to consciously activate and focus on for several rounds. Why would the standards be any different than in the rest of the Realms? And even if you renounce the normativeness of canon material, it's still no argument to defer to "EfU authority" or server tradition.
Actually this server does that all the time, whether for convenience, creativity, FR often just being plain stupid, or what have you.
Efu is not canon.
hi my name is naga and i am cool because i make rude comments that make no sense on the topic because i don't really read what people wrote
Quote from: putrid_plum;169128hi my name is naga and i am cool because i make rude comments that make no sense on the topic because i don't really read what people wrote
Hi I'm plum I fail at reading too oh and I also just gained +1 to my post count without even having to come up with anything relating to the topic or specific quotes from it. Wicked awesome cool.
Actually, I'd be happy to see paladins be a PrC/app only class, which would probably solve a lot of issues regarding ignorant or improper playing of said class.
Just make paladins app-only in that case.
Wow, "detect evil is rape."
Paladins should use DE regularly as a tool to ensure they do not quest with evil PCs. Depending on the paladin they should respond to an evil PC in this situation by politely excusing themselves, by outright refusing to accept the evil PC, by warning the party leader, by attempting to interact with the evil PC in question to seek repentance, by stating that the all-seeing wisdom of the divine-gift has pierced the veil of this man's flesh and that corruption lurks within...
I agree that paladins should not be slanderous or discourteous, but also think that some paladins should not hesitate to acknowledge/tell the truth when they DE. Confronting random strangers in the street is of course absurd, but a quest group being assembled is a perfectly appropriate place for a paladin to enforce their code.
But really, for however many years we've had this policy that paladins should use DE at will. It's very easily blocked, it's very doable to play a sinister evil PC that disguises his alignment - just a bit complicated sometimes.
Oh, and -
QuoteAnd even if you renounce the normativeness of canon material, it's still no argument to defer to "EfU authority" or server tradition.
Actually it is. In lots of ways we're not a canon server.
As for the question, it makes for a better server in which paladins are not off questing with evil PCs and everyone being a happy leveling-up family than it does for your sinister evil PC to have to go to slightly more work to disguise his alignment.
Yes, but "we're not a canon server" tells what you are not, not what you are. You obviously still need to defend your stance with some arguments, not with deference to authority. Because you the DMs/we the server are the authority in question. You can't defend EFU's stance by referring to the authority of, well, EFU's stance. It is as if you were discussing established laws in the congress, and somebody defended them by saying they are the laws. Duh.
This is my general annoyance at responses like "this is how we do it here." It doesn't answer why you do it and whether you should continue to do it.
I don't care about the evil side of it; whenever I play evil, I have no problem making it public. It's after all only a game stat on your character sheet, and real judgement is passed in RP and personal interaction. All the better if great guys are judged evil by paladins: it makes them look silly and gives more credibility to the "goodness" of evil. In a persistent world, I find it pointless to maintain secrecy.
I am more interested in the paladin side, how paladins conduct themselves. Integrity, respect, honor, good manners, responsible use of power. That's what a paladin is all about, to me. In fact, I'm of the opinion a paladin should reserve his spells and other powers for situations in which all else fails, because they must strive to serve their god with all their ability instead of relying the easy, externally given power. But that's just one take, I realize that, and I can hardly expect that of others.
Why is everyone repeating "paladin needs DE not to quest with evil PCs"? That's not part of the paladin's code. A paladin must never knowingly consort with evil, and must be vigilant at all times. In my opinion (and I doubt I'm wrong), this does not extend to using Detect Evil on everyone. Even if we've established paladins can do it and some are allowed to do it, I maintain that it's hardly required of them; a paladin should be able to be a successful paladin without ever using their magical powers, and players should be allowed to play such. That's what makes paladins special: they are vigilant and thoughtful individuals, who invest in Wisdom, Sense Motive and social skills so that they can solve these problems in mundane means. A paladin who can't fulfill his duty without magical skillz is not worthy of being a paladin at all.
No matter how much you argue in terms of "they can do it, they should do it", I stlll see it as worse than rape. There is nothing more sacred than the depths of a person's heart, and trespassing is a severe violation of their freedom and privacy. Certainly, not all gods and paladins would think so; they might think it's quite OK. But objectively, in any campaign I'd run, it would definetely be an evil and unlawful act if it was unprovoked. Alignment is up to the DMs, always. So think about it: would you praise a preacher for coming to your home and seeing if you're one of the chosen or condemned to Hell for all time? Who is another mortal to define your very existance with but a glance? It's hubris of the highest degree.
Quote from: Barehander;169187Yes, but "we're not a canon server" tells what you are not, not what you are. You obviously still need to defend your stance with some arguments, not with deference to authority. Because you the DMs/we the server are the authority in question. You can't defend EFU's stance by referring to the authority of, well, EFU's stance. It is as if you were discussing established laws in the congress, and somebody defended them by saying they are the laws. Duh.
This is my general annoyance at responses like "this is how we do it here." It doesn't answer why you do it and whether you should continue to do it.
It has always worked in the part. It has always made sense for our setting. This is how we ENJOY having paladins in our setting. They're not for everyone.
QuoteI am more interested in the paladin side, how paladins conduct themselves. Integrity, respect, honor, good manners, responsible use of power. That's what a paladin is all about, to me. In fact, I'm of the opinion a paladin should reserve his spells and other powers for situations in which all else fails, because they must strive to serve their god with all their ability instead of relying the easy, externally given power. But that's just one take, I realize that, and I can hardly expect that of others.
As said before a paladins detect evil in this setting is an unlimited use day thus to reserve it would be volley a paladin with a wisdom score of 10 or higher recognizes this. It isn't wasteful and is encouraged by their patron sponsor so that he may better fight evil.
QuoteWhy is everyone repeating "paladin needs DE not to quest with evil PCs"? That's not part of the paladin's code. A paladin must never knowingly consort with evil, and must be vigilant at all times. In my opinion (and I doubt I'm wrong), this does not extend to using Detect Evil on everyone. Even if we've established paladins can do it and some are allowed to do it, I maintain that it's hardly required of them; a paladin should be able to be a successful paladin without ever using their magical powers, and players should be allowed to play such. That's what makes paladins special: they are vigilant and thoughtful individuals, who invest in Wisdom, Sense Motive and social skills so that they can solve these problems in mundane means. A paladin who can't fulfill his duty without magical skillz is not worthy of being a paladin at all.
Wrong. Paladins are given their gifts to use them. To squander them by not making use of them is foolishness. In our setting they are given an unlimited detection spell by their god and this god would be rather upset if the paladin choose not to use it and inadvertently aided an evil doer however minor he may have been.
QuoteNo matter how much you argue in terms of "they can do it, they should do it", I stlll see it as worse than rape. There is nothing more sacred than the depths of a person's heart, and trespassing is a severe violation of their freedom and privacy. Certainly, not all gods and paladins would think so; they might think it's quite OK. But objectively, in any campaign I'd run, it would definetely be an evil and unlawful act if it was unprovoked. Alignment is up to the DMs, always. So think about it: would you praise a preacher for coming to your home and seeing if you're one of the chosen or condemned to Hell for all time? Who is another mortal to define your very existance with but a glance? It's hubris of the highest degree.
It's not a sacred thing to pry into someones soul on this setting. It would be the same at looking at someone in the eyes. You over-examine alignment justifications of certain actions. If you keep doing that you'll have nothing but counter arguments.
Hell I'm pretty sure I could come up with an arguement as to why mugging an old lady is LG, LN, LE, NN, NG,NE, CG, CN, CE with enough effort.
To summarize. It's like this because most folk enjoy it this way. Its justified because we all play for our enjoyment. It's not going to change and if this weren't an awesome server the only response you'd get from a dm is "because we said so."
*Sniffs* He just looked at me! Told everyone I was a bad person.. I am so sad now.*Sniffs*
Peter the baby strangler.
P.S
"I understand paladins on EFU:A get Detect Evil. While it is the worst design decision ever, especially since it's implemented different than it's supposed to work (instant, pin-pointable, no saves, no potential stun?) and none of the traditional counters are available, I can live with it. Even if it means my cleric cannot use the bread-and-butter level 2 Undetectable Alignment spell available to your local priest everywhere.
"
There is a very simple lvl 1 spell that will protect you.
I appreciate that you're thoughtfully and articulately advancing an argument, so I'll do my best to respond in kind. But perhaps you could temper your tone somewhat, it's a bit much -
QuoteIt is as if you were discussing established laws in the congress, and somebody defended them by saying they are the laws. Duh.
This is my general annoyance at responses like "this is how we do it here." It doesn't answer why you do it and whether you should continue to do it.
... when I did (admittedly briefly) explain why the way it is the way it is. Throwing the "Duh" in there does not seem necessary. I'm sorry if I was maybe a bit short in my response, but really after however many years of running this server I try to avoid having to make very long forum-posts when possible.
The major source of our disagreement is this -
QuoteWhy is everyone repeating "paladin needs DE not to quest with evil PCs"? That's not part of the paladin's code. A paladin must never knowingly consort with evil, and must be vigilant at all times. In my opinion (and I doubt I'm wrong), this does not extend to using Detect Evil on everyone. Even if we've established paladins can do it and some are allowed to do it, I maintain that it's hardly required of them; a paladin should be able to be a successful paladin without ever using their magical powers, and players should be allowed to play such. That's what makes paladins special: they are vigilant and thoughtful individuals, who invest in Wisdom, Sense Motive and social skills so that they can solve these problems in mundane means. A paladin who can't fulfill his duty without magical skillz is not worthy of being a paladin at all.
I understand what you're saying - that paladins should only use their divinely granted gifts in times of great need, and that furthermore "intrusion" into the soul/alignment of others is in some way discourteous or... inappropriate.
I'm just saying that isn't the way it is here. We could argue about canon all day, but since we're not a canon server I'll try to explain the way paladins function in our (or at least mine) vision of the EFU setting.
Paladins are not (generally!) subtle investigators, but are the holy warriors and crusaders of their deity and a code of "objective good." This code of "objective good" is something paladins strive to adhere to totally, to be a living representation of a force of righteousness. This code - this force of "good" - is something objective, defined by Ao perhaps and wholly apart from real-life "grey" morality. Of course we as DMs will try to muddy the code, to put paladins into interesting and difficult moral positions, to otherwise make things seem "grey"... but the source of the paladin's code is absolutely black and white - it is an objectively based moral code.
This makes paladins fill an interesting and dynamic role as a class in the stories/setting of EFU. They are more than just heroes with a lawful good alignment, but rather - have a sort of fanatic approach towards self-purity which tempered with their human characteristics has the potential to make for an interesting character.
We like interesting characters because we think they're fun to play, make for good stories, make for a more interesting setting... and so on.
So! In our vision of the paladin as a sort of super-holy-warrior, we think it is better that they be provided with the tools to keep to this code of not consorting with evil folk. We feel that paladins are so... pure, righteous, intense in their convictions... that having them questing with random evil PCs would dilute their nature, that aiding evil PCs by helping them gather gold or resources would make them less special.
So, to summarize -
Paladins are not limited in their use of their abilities, they are provided with their holy gifts by their respective deity with the expectation that they will use them.
Paladins are more than a LG hero, they are representations of an objective moral code that strive to fulfill their holy calling in a way beyond other classes.
Paladins questing with evil PCs makes the class lose something of its distinctive spark, would - I am certain in an PW environment with a playerbase that has all kinds of different levels of RP experience - really lead to a rash of poorly played, poorly characterized paladins that just quest around and are barely distinguished from any other Joe Schmoe adventurer. And that is bad because we are trying to have a good server that is attractive to thoughtful roleplayers such as yourself.
Is it necessary that I continue?
Yes please continue Howland. I want to know more.
Also this will let me win the bet! Bwahaha
Five years of about same deal, and majority has always come to same conclusion. I see no point to change it in any way. In the past paladins were discussed and studied long and well - and we're still at the same conclusion with majority.
Holy warriors sense evil, simple as that. Get protection for it if you want to avoid it. It is not a major ritual that needs your awesome and hour lasting focus. You go around, hang around people and focus shortly and oy.. There is something strange about. Booyah. That's it.
DMs, can we just have BLOCKED BY PfG in big letters under it in the mechanics page? Although, so far as changing it goes, how about having it work like Track? It shows you the location of an evil aura but not the name of a PC. That way you could get evil PCs bribing others to run off as a distraction while they saunter away, etc.
Or...
Thin Sheet of Lead
Small Shield
-1 AC
-1 Reflex
//This item provides immunity to detect Evil/Good when equipped
If you have such a problem with this, why not take the little black bottles that noone seems to actuallly care about when quest loot is devided and just dont sell them for the 12 or 15 gold and make use of them.
Per EfUA_undercover.
That, or learn to cast PfA and use it on yourself. The common thug probably shouldn't be able to block DE, but the scheming wizard or undercover priest should be able to.
Yep, sorry about the tone, Howland. It wasn't directed at you particularly, but this topicful of trolls who don't seem to read posts. (OK, maybe that's an exaggeration again! But let's not point out the individuals.)
I do get your view of the paladin. To me, a paladin is more like a Jedi in KOTOR: you can use your Force Persuade to have an easier time, but you'll get more Light Side points and approval if you go about it the traditional way. Just as some paladin may be zealous, another may be serene and contemplative. It is not a matter of squandering your abilities: it's a matter of spiritual restraint and ascetism. You have the power, and the greatest test character is not to rely on it. I doubt many gods would be mad at this. It is the very core of Mystra's dogma, too: the greatest masters of the Weave must learn not to rely on the Weave. This is where I completely disagree with TheImpossibleDream: he is thinking about it economically, from the perspective of a 21st century gamer who gets these powers in the build. I don't think that's the perspective of an archaic religious person, though. In many historical and pop culture depictions of powerful or enlightened religious individuals, they do not use their powers recklessly, and they don't have a rational economy of benefits where they would calculate the good. Every external challenge is also a challenge of the self. A paladin who does not overcome himself everyday cannot overcome evil.
But I digress. I've been arguing about paladins for years, and it's getting a little repetitive. I acknowledge that there are several justified interpretations, yours included. It just frustrates me to no end that it's portrayed as the only right way, when the game setting and our imagination has left so many interesting options open. I sympathise with the worry that paladins will become watered-down, but I think it happens and has happened even with this classic view.
But anyway: if I'll ever play a paladin, I guess I'll make a special request that outlines his beliefs and methods extensively so the DMs can make a specific judgement on the case and see if I can play it. I could never play the cookie-cutter stereotype, because it's not very interesting.
Those potions do not last long and if you chug potions of PFG people will automaticaly assume OOCLY and IG "Someone is hiding da ebol!"
Right now for wizards with extend spell PFG is great. However us non casters who wish to be subtle about our evilness are sort of screwed in addition before we find any items capable of blocking PFG weve likely been detected a billion times so when we finally achieve said items Paladins will find the sudden redemption off. And yes I hate the fact that if I want to make a subtle evil it is ruined by a paladin going. "HES EBOL!"
A few things to consider:
it's already been said those pots don't last long enough, and even for casters, there will be a day when they have to respawn or get dispelled near a paladin. Paladins also do not have to work to DE someone. All they need to do is tell the group they'll examine them and anyone who leaves after that is as good as DE'd. I have seen this scenario often.
Suggestion : Derflaro in the perks thread suggested immunity from de as a perk. A very good idea, although perhaps it should have some drawback as well, perhaps an increased vulnerability to something else.
IF detect evil is being used too much maybe it should come with a small xp loss whenever used. That way you're almost sure to eliminate frivolous usage.
drinking PFG potions: an action you're forced to do in front of everyone no matter what.
TBH though if you want to conceal yourself, then it's probably cooler to have it take some effort.
yeah, if you quest with a paladin then keeping PFG up the whole time while he is sniffing you is probably going to be sort of hard, but the fact it's like this makes it that much more of a prize.
oh and there are items and such already that can protect you from this shit and you can eat them or whatever for easy mode. maybe replace bubbleberries with 'fuck paladins berries' and you can eat them to be immune for 9 rounds to DE
I had page 5 on my ticket, damn.
I still think it beats the old dwarven paladins who used to literally use DE, find ppl, and beat them up.
On other hand, paladins are not rare at this point in time. There are quite alot of them actually. More paladins then clerics, and I would say sorc/paladin/fight prolly tied for most played classes at moment.
For those evil doers out there, and I've told others, give it time. This server swings alignments and classes alot. I mean just a handful of weeks ago there was tons of nature ppl, then tons of mercs, now lots of good folk. When evil finally swings back I'm sure someone will whine about how hard it is to be a paladin and take down evil when "EVERYONE" is evil (yes I've seen those posts to.)
I don't think paladins shouldn't use DE, or that they should ask ppl not to quest them. I do think though ppl should not suddenly believe someone just because they say "I have a magic power, that dude is evil." Which 9 out of 10 times, they do.
I don't really mind paladins telling everyone you're evil. All the worse for them. If you're a model citizen and have done nothing wrong, there's no reason for anyone to take the paladin's judgement for granted. So what if he has a magic radar that identifies an abstract concept of "evil"? If you've been a good guy, then clearly there is something flawed about the paladin's radar and his definition of good and evil is not the same as normal people's.
In fact, I welcome it as an opportunity to undermine the paladin and get into an ethical discussion. I just wish it was RPed, instead of what I get now: someone casually passes me on the street and tells others I'm evil, for absolutely no other reason than that he has a divine mandate. That's not responsible use of power, ever. More importantly, that's not a good contribution to the story, which should be our primary concern.
Unlike real life in FR evil is a physical thing. You either are or you aren't. No matter how you justify your actions if you're alignment field reads "Evil" you are evil no matter how non evil you act.
If you want to play non evil do not select the evil alignment. Just selecting the evil alignment means you've acted enough to KNOW YOU YOURSELF ARE AN EVIL AND IMMORAL BEING. For example you may have murdered someone or you may be a greedy wife beating mugger.
Not really. Not at all, really. Evil and Good exist, but it is agreed that they are not identical with mortal values and morality. Entire nations consider some objectively Evil things quite good and acceptable. Slavery and human sacrifice are probably objectively not good, but there are many nations and cultures which consider them good regardless. There are Paladins, in fact, who uphold legal systems based on slavery. They don't know or think they're evil.
This is why I hate D&D alignment: it's fine in itself, but people misunderstand it. Just because the metaphysical building blocks of the universe are absolute doesn't mean the people live in a black-and-white world. Their world is the same as ours, with diverse values and beliefs. Nobody can worship an evil god and think they're evil, that's semantically contradictory: everyone strives for good, insofar as good is considered something desireable. They're simply mistaken about what is objectively good.
But these metaphysical truths are meaningless to many people: do you think a tribe who'd sacrificed virgins for generations would understand or care if a paladin came and told them what they do is evil? Do you think they have a conscious guilt? Hardly.
Objective Good and Evil exist, and everyone is positioned somewhere on the alignment grid. But that doesn't mean people's morality coincides with the alignment grid. They don't necessarily think Good is really "good" and desireable or that Evil is foul and undesireable. Some believe tyranny to be the ideal form of government, some believe freedom to justify war and murder.
I am convinced that the great majority of evil people don't know they're evil and don't feel guilty. As it should be. Nobody ever, anywhere, consciously chooses evil subjectively (as opposed to the objective Evil which they don't recognize as undesireable).
That's why I don't think Detect Evil can ruin anyone's RP: PCs should judge you for what they know about you, your actions and your values. If they are sympathetic to you, the declaration of a paladin that you're evil is meaningless to them. It simply means that the metaphysical Evil the paladin has seen does not concern their concept of right and wrong, which is a different thing.
Never associate Good and Evil with mortal right and wrong. There's a gap you can't bridge between them.
I don't mean to be harsh on anyone in particular, but keep in mind we're not real life, history, Dungeons and Dragons canon, or the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Remember that EfU is it's own entity and that's where we are playing. Keep the discussion specific to the custom environment we have crafted for EfU, otherwise this should be discussed in off-topic.
caprice potions!!! sold for a mere 50 coins from a specific person in a somewhat chaotic place
Quote from: ExileStrife;169263I don't mean to be harsh on anyone in particular, but keep in mind we're not real life, history, Dungeons and Dragons canon, or the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Remember that EfU is it's own entity and that's where we are playing. Keep the discussion specific to the custom environment we have crafted for EfU, otherwise this should be discussed in off-topic.
Yes, but we are specifically based on D&D Forgotten Realms, and more importantly, everything about the game is based on real life. How are you going to play and understand the game if not through your life experience? Everything we do, we immediately mirror off the real world. That is the only world we live in, and the only world we have any understanding of.
It's not valid to counter an argument simply by refuting the power of an example. Argumentation is based on logic and the shared meaning of our language. Therefore, it's relatively intersubjective and universally applicable in all environments. A->(B->A) is a tautology in EfU just as much as in Tarski's logic. You don't need a DM to ascertain this is the case, or a post in the lore forum.
It is equally true that if you define good as that which is desireable, you can never want anything but good. And that's what people do, psychologically. It doesn't matter whether it's real life, Forgotten Realms or Ymph. A person will always choose what he ultimately believes to be right. That's what my post above addresses: TheImpossibleDream claimed that an Evil being knows he has done wrong and is immoral. A lot of the time, he doesn't. What's Evil and immoral are two different things. Evil is an objective force of the universe. Morality is, by definition of the word, concerned with human behaviour and values. What we consider valuable. There's no reason to assume that people on Toril always consider Good right and Evil wrong. I'm sure nobody knows Good and Evil completely, because even the gods dedicated to Good disagree; and if they all had a perfect understanding of pure Good, they logically could not disagree. It's not an empirical matter of studying real-world, FR or EfU source material. It's simply a logical truth derived from the definition of words.
I certainly hope it's not the stance of the EfU DM team that inspiration, background, personality etc. for one's character should be derived from the material strictly offered by the server. I am sure everyone, you included, uses concepts from a myriad sources that have nothing to do with this server. I'm a student of religious studies and philosophy, and one of the biggest reasons I RP is so I can give life to academic concepts such as the Goddess cult, bodily mysticism, Neoplatonism, Jungian archetypes, the distinction of sacred and profane, Eliade's teophanies etc. This is why, personally, I'm a good roleplayer with interesting characters. You might do great with stereotypes represented by existing NPCs or forum guidelines, but that's not for me. It is quite reasonable to assume that people on EfU follow the same laws of logic and psychology that people everywhere. Because we play people, based on our experience of real people.
How to make a mountain out of a molehill?