I'd like to discuss some large scale things here that I feel effect the overall atmosphere and feeling of EFU:A. Before I start I also want to emphasize that I certainly do not mean to dismantle any of the great work that has been put in already.
Let's start big, the setting - EFU:A is pretty amazing in terms of it's possibilities and location. There is a good amount of exploration, unique creations, and a ton of lore and history out there just waiting to be found (or written in some cases). It's hard to put in negatives here but I think there are two primary concerns I've always felt since I started playing here.
Old Port - This "big brother" of an island too often feels like it's the focal point of the server yet we are rarely able to interact there. Even when we are, outside of very special occasions, we're left to the smaller visitor's district and docks of that island without chance to even witness the greatness it has to offer.
Old Port comes with a vast amount of history and stories to claim as it's own, but why have such things when they feel so out of reach for players to impact. It almost feels as if our actions on Ymph are dwarfed by what could happen with the true power of the islands, Old Port.
It's hard to suggest something different as someone who can only present an outside point of view but I'll offer a few anyway. Diminish the size and power of Old Port as the colony on Ymph grows, turning it into a haven of ruthless pirates, thieves, and other such people. Another option is to completely separate the colony from Old Port by whatever means are found to be fitting. This would offer another tangible enemy of the colony that people have been craving while directing the attention of player goals completely onto the colony.
The Factions - Shortly after I began playing here I was a big advocate of separating the factions more than they had been. I believed that Sharboneth and the Stygians were too close together and that mages needed a place in DM factions. These things have happened but to an effect that just feels off somehow. It feels as if the three powers (Stygians, Conclave, Docks) are now too far separated to properly interact with each other. This is a hard thing for me to explain for some reason but I'll give it a try.
Normally you have segregation between good and evil and the interaction they can have with one another. When you introduce factions to the equation you add another layer of separation, this is normally a good thing and adds more depth to what can happen between the forces.
At this time on EFU:A we have two factions that directly oppose one another, the docks and the Stygians. Arguments can be made for either of these to support both good and evil characters and thusly it adds to the depth of conflict. We also have the Conclave which can technically be seen as an enemy to each of the other factions. You then have the Pallid Mask and Druid factions which can commonly be an enemy to anyone in the three 'primary powers'.
I believe that there are now too many layers of conflict, even excluding player factions, and that it may be hurting the feel of the server in general. People seem to be using direct force as their primary weapon in disputes over all other options. I am a big advocate of conflict and PvP but, with the intricate web of dealings someone has to go through to truly create interesting disputes, I feel that it's just become too complicated.
The solution to this is probably nothing big. A lot of it comes down to current characters and their in-game ambitions however I do think that some moves should be made to reduce the need for direct force over the alternate options.
Old Port is intended to be a distant force, dwarfing the localized PC setting in terms of power; much like Traensyr was to Sanctuary. It lends the setting scale and realism.
You also quote it as the 'focal' point but that is quite untrue; clearly the Colony is the focal point, and Old Port is a distant entity that merely effects happenings in the Colony from time to time.
On factions, I think they're pretty amazing at the moment. Lots of conflict, PvP and otherwise, going on everyday. Its tense and exciting, and packed with intrigue and good RP from all sides. Keep up the good work all!
This is an ironic original post. As I had planned to sit down tonight and write out one of my infrequent fan boy "I-love-the-server" posts, the focus being entirely on how impressively balanced and dynamic the factions are!
I cannot speak for early EfU:A, having wagged most of it, but I can say the three major powers work much, much better here than the old upper/lower dichotomy did in EfU. The constant balancing act between the various forces means that diplomacy is vital, and there is no shortage of it going on. But not at the expense of overt violence, of which there has been plenty as well.
In EfU, it was sort of "your bad", "no, YOUR bad" style RP and then hammer and tongs. The best interfaction stuff wasn’t Upper/Lower but Seeker/Spellguard, because RP entailed more than just spitting before the PvP. Here, the three way conflict is really adding depth and character to the server.
The other significant factions - Mask, Stewards, Gazers and so on all seem to be dynamic, active and influential. I am itching to give some of them a go.
In fact, the only criticism I could make about the factions was the end of the Headhunters. The Risers were an excellent addition to the server. They gave endless PvP to those who wanted it. The did not kill off massive numbers of players, and they were scary in a way NPC mobs never will be. They added a lot to the server. In fact if I got a vote I would say EfU:A should always have an antagonistic team that can fight the rest of the players. Be it orcs, goblins, flayers or whatever is the flavour of the month.
Bring back Sewer Drow Rebels!
A solely antagonistic faction like the Headhunters or Slime drow definitely adds a great deal of fear and excitement to the server. I would love to see a new incarnation.
Perhaps some of us players could come up with our own.
That's a marvelous idea Pup.
My only issue with the 100% antagonistic factions seemed that since they were almost entirely combat the populace, they just built shameless power-builds to achieve it. I'd like to see a balance done somewhat, but either way, IG ways of doing this are always sweet.
I have to largely agree with Scrappayeti, but I suppose it also largely depends upon your prospective. As I am playing a PC member of the Conclave, I see a lot of things going on that would be difficult to understand without being in the faction. There is lots of diplomacy, lots of fighting, but over all I don't think anything has been bad at all.
Certainly, I think the factions are much better aligned than previously. There are a lot of options, and a lot of choices.
I think things overall are pretty good right now.
I'll make a completely antagonistic faction if anyone wants to join, send me a tell.
Caddies said it right about Old Port...it is essentially a "neutral" version of "evil" Traensyr. I think it's pretty important to have a much larger foundational force always brewing in the background but not necessarily always in the spotlight. I really don't think anyone is making it out to be the primary plot point at all, but I could be wrong!
But I just want to make an additional comment about one faction in particular.
It may be due to the current characters in it as well as player's perceptions about the new-and-unfamiliar-Conclave (and also the unavoidable Spellguard comparisons [which are bad!]), but the Conclave specifically is much deeper than the first post makes it out to be. It is definitely a mistake to say they are the "enemy" of the Stygians, and I would at least hope the players currently in the faction would agree with that directly. There are even more complexities that are best left discovered in game.
Now...certainly...everyone has their own ideas about what is going and will each draw their own individual conclusions. It's quite possible that we're doing something wrong and could do better to make those individual conclusions more equal. I believe it makes a more healthy and enjoyable place overall when everybody is on the same page with what's going on.
Re: The Conclave.
When it was first created I thought it was probably similar to the Spellguard. Having an actual character in the faction has disabused me of that notion entirely.
I have to say that the Conclave is really a great faction. Everyone is somewhat united around a few loosely held joint goals, but outside of that it is very open ended. At least at the lower ranks.
Something I noticed playing a character of the Conclave is how it seems to be painted with a broad brush. There are so many different types of characters and personalities under one banner. Literally, we have / had paladins, demon summoners, necromancers, clerics of various deities... all serving under the same banner.
There is lots of, "I'll work with you on X, but oppose you on Y." And a lot of mini-alliances within the faction among both players and NPC's. Even NPC's disagree with and work against other NPC's of the faction.
It is absolutely nothing like the Spellguard, where if you stepped out of line you would likely be killed. It is perfectly plausible to be a Paladin -and- a member of a faction that has Necromancers and the like within it... that's part of the factions internal charm.
I think the faction's current perception might be a bit misleading due to our current bunch of members, which are primarily evil in alignment. Before them the faction was dominated by good aligned members (or those that tilted in that direction).
The Conclave (as a whole) really isn't the enemy of any other faction on the server, Stygian's, Sons, Druids, Pallid Mask, etc. Though individual members have their own personal likes and dislikes about those factions (NPC's included).
I would certainly recommend the Conclave to any arcane oriented character. There is also a great misconception about Consorts, which seem to be considered as nothing more than glorified Bodyguards. In reality the Consorts play just as big of a role as the arcanists and are considered their equals. They share their rank in the Conclave, and it is even possible for a Consort to "drag" the arcanist they are bonded to up through the ranks.
Really, the faction is more-or-less wide open for all kinds of different types of characters... virtually an endless combination.
The Conclave is a wonderful, beautiful faction.
I confess, I found it more charming than my brief stay in the Armada. It is totally possible to be a paladin in it.
It's a faction filled with conflict, yet manages to provide a united front.
Kudos to the DMs.
Having joined the Conclave fairly recently and having been a critic of it in the past, I can certainly say now that it is a very unique and interesting faction that is in many ways superior to the Spellguard. Yes, I said it. Spellguard-fanboi-Garem likes the Conclave, as a faction, better.
This topic has digressed. Back on point, I like the factions. Kind of wish there were more minor factions, though. Church of Umberlee, all the NPC gangs, the lack of similar groups on the ziggurat (Church of Siamorphe maybe?) could be better, but as it stands our DMs are a bit tied up. Just a thought for the future. But the existing factions kick ass.
Ill reiterate: The onus is on the players. If you want to see something, make it. I don't think I need to point out that if a char is rocking and working hard for something, and things go right, it will happen.
I think if you see something missing from the server, make it. It's been quite some time since I've had an integral char on the server, but I also know it is just a matter of time. I've abandoned a few chars, but that's just part of it.
I know I'll find a char that I enjoy playing (I have already), and things will happen.
You may have an idea, and it may or may not work. If you need, try again.
As someone who struggled for a long time (and still does), often just some patience and the building of allies will work wonders.
I've forgotten how many times a char I thought was throw-out turned into something.
I'm not too sure what you're even talking about Pup to be honest. Anyway, nothing in this thread is a complaint about how things are or even a true suggestion on how things might change. It's just here as a discussion on the factions and their interaction -outside of direct conflict-.
As for the Conclave not being enemies of the Duchy, well, that can be argued to death either way at the moment I believe. In simple terms they hijacked the Ruby General Drexia, Razul is an outlaw according to the Count Senuspur, and Duke Trenada serves under the Count which in turn kind of forces a lot of tension if nothing else. The Stygian Armada also despises most any Wizard using their magic to destroy things in battle and they certainly mistrust and are suspicious of any Wizard as well.
With all that said however I'd like to point out that I have really enjoyed where things are going and hope they continue to grow. I also want to say again that nothing in here is a complaint about PvP, conflict, or plots!
While not having a Spellguard/Conclave PC ever I can't say I can really judge, but I can say the consort system seems pretty involving, and the fact that the stereotype is not expected to be the terse LE Spellguard agent seems to be definitely cool for conflict. Kudos on all that.
As far as Garem's note of the mirror of docks and colony factions, that seems to be pretty well done too. There's churches here and churches there. There's the gangs and the noble houses, the Sons and the Stygians, while still each side has a more distinct and fleshed out way of things.
While this might be taken as more out of self-interest, I'd think having the shops opened up in the docks would definitely help the population dispersion, but realize that needs some time. Slight price fluctuations/differences can have a huge impact on how people and therefore get into more conflict as well. Even the Conclave could use some public accommodations to draw some traffic, maybe.
Quote from: VanillaPudding;171467I'm not too sure what you're even talking about Pup to be honest. Anyway, nothing in this thread is a complaint about how things are or even a true suggestion on how things might change. It's just here as a discussion on the factions and their interaction -outside of direct conflict-. !
Even when I'm extemporaneous, I still usually fail to be clear. For that I apologize.
I know Fleeting Heart got me, though. There is a HUGE opportunity for players right now. The delicate balance amongst the current factions is ripe for the plucking. If I wasn't enjoying my current char so much I would leap in head-first. But I am taking it slow for now, and just enjoying the server without huge goals or "awesome" concepts.
*throws down the guantlet*
I know this strays from the OP (Sorry, Vanilla), but I KNOW IT IS OUT THERE>>>
I do agree with derf that, playing a majority Docks character, the situation is pretty unappealing a lot of the time. Apart from outlaws and Sons, every PC, including the PCs who would normally be in the Docks, simply chills in the Ziggurat due to there being nothing but a few quests in the Docks, which in turn creates the ghost town atmosphere I've always seen there.
Basically, what I'm saying is the only PCs who really spend any time in the Docks are those who do PvP against the Stygians / Colony regularly, which makes it feel very much like a war camp where almost every other PC who would otherwise be there just goes to the Ziggurat for convenience.
Shops and more quests would help this, but the DMs are on that anyways. Otherwise, I do know what you mean for a lot of this, but there will always be problems and these are relatively minor in comparison to a lot of other times on EfU.
I do believe that the docks has nearly as many quests as the Ziggurat, (maybe more?) with the exception of a lowbie circuit, which should be rectified. It does not have a sending system. It is sort of a tediously large / slow design.
QuoteBasically, what I'm saying is the only PCs who really spend any time in the Docks are those who do PvP against the Stygians / Colony regularly, which makes it feel very much like a war camp where almost every other PC who would otherwise be there just goes to the Ziggurat for convenience.
This is waaay largely due to the current IG climate, I think. It's really dangerous for PCs to be around the Docks. People perceive, be it IC or OOCly, that many of the prevalent Dock PCs right now are as likely to mug you as help you. They are naturally repelled by this.
TBH, needs another Fleur or someone like it or this isn't going to change. PC action is required to make the Docks more lucrative for adventurers, and the ziggurat less attractive because quite simply the Stygian/Law-and-Order PCs have created an IG environment around the ziggurat that is much better for PCs to exist in, and the Sons/Chaos-and-Anarchy PCs have created an IG environment that repels them.
There I disagree, having spoken to a lot of players and seen it myself, a lot of people who are "tough enough" to hang in the Docks simply don't because there's never anyone around to chat with and, if you want to do questing, it's simply much easier to arrange it all at the Ziggurat.
I've never seen someone mugged in the docks. I think most PvP has been decently reasonable.
I'll probably get shit for this comparison, but Lower was pretty reasonably populated a lot of time, as far as I could tell. People consistently had a reason to go there for shops. I don't really fault the design of the docks, no one decides not to go there saying to themselves "UGH IT'S SO CLUNKY TO LOOK AT THE DOCKS." Nor do I think lowbie quests there would do anything besides make low level characters run from quest to quest there for awhile in addition to the zigguraut ones. I guess the lack of sendings doesn't help, but it isn't a huge deal.
Anyways, it might be a cyclical thing. Occasional crowds are drawn to the docks and it's cool. I'm not insanely distressed or anything.
The IC reputation of the docks created by the playerbase only adds to the spice that the GM/DMs intended the docks atmosphere to be. Ofcourse there are times when its a ghost town, whether thats down to a lack of quests/merchants/sendings, that only shows that the playerbase is lured to places with better gains (XP, GP and loot) than those with possibly better atmosphere.
Not that I'm saying anyones powergaming, but its human nature.
I disagree with Gippy about the quests - there are some for the 3-6 level range, but only one for the higher level range, and that one has to be triggered from the ziggurat.
Besides a few errand quests the docks should have one higher level quest comparable to the Stygian Armada one - perhaps a quest to ambush a slaver caravan or ship?
The sending issue is the major one, really: if you want to get something going outside of the crowd in the immediate vicinity, you have to go to the Zig. And that's where people are, so it's common to stick around and gather a crowd there. I guess the shops are a bit of an issue too, but I don't have to shop all too often.
All in all, however, I don't think it's much of an issue with the design. People will always hang out somewhere, and it's quite natural to go to where the most people are if there are no obstacles. The most people implies the most RP opportunities, roughly speaking.
There are a few PCs that do spend a decent amount of time in the Docks and the Wastrel specifically that are not part of the Sons and/or do not PvP the Stygians and other Pcs often.
Opening up some of those specialty shops might bring some PCs to the Docks more often and encourage more RP and interaction.
Especially if there are some highly sought after consumables that can be bought there for a decent price.
derailment complete
QuoteI'll probably get shit for this comparison, but Lower was pretty reasonably populated a lot of time, as far as I could tell. People consistently had a reason to go there for shops.
Lower had the only local NPC smith I believe after the duergar left. There were also deliveries heading into Lower, and what's more, there were actually merchants there. Once the shops actually open (in particular, the hides merchant I think) both camps should at least become self-sufficient. I think the thing that ultimately kept Lower alive though was the fact that Upper needed it, both in terms of things that affected PCs and also background plots. The Duchy certainly appears to exist entirely without the need for the Docks and the Docks district will remain a ghost town until all those shops open. Provided each camp has its own merchants and no need for the other, we will get the chance to see some nice red vs. blue if not regain what was EFU. Things change though so I really don't see it as being a bad thing.
As far as the original post goes, factions seem cooler now with more shades of gray and less overlapping authority, so keep them as they are. While I realize for an entire dongstorm of reasons we'll never get to play in Old Port, I find myself thinking I'd be more interested in that and leaving the Ziggurat some uber dungeon for PC excursions. Maybe it would get boring after awhile, but to be fair, even the most interesting setting will get boring after awhile (see EFU).