Just in the interest of what we've been asked.
Quote from: HowlandSummons aren't intended to be equally good, no. But they should have an appropriate balance in the context of the server as a whole. Summons that are too strong, or too weak, should be brought to our attention.
The summoned versions of some creatures, slimes, cubes and assassin vines, have monster true seeing, and this is used to tremendous effect during PvP that I have witnessed. However, the NPC monster versions of most of these creatures do not possess True Seeing as it is possible to sneak past most of them with high enough ranks. I think some slimes do, but the rest certainly do not.
I just wanted to point out this disparity, because I personally feel there's an imbalance here. Once PvP starts the summoner has access to an ability that they basically cannot possess in any other way. Sure, I realize the whole "these creatures are supposed to have tremor sense" argument, but the way I understand it True Seeing was removed from the monster versions for the purpose of balance, yet it remains with the summoned versions.
Regardless, I didn't post this to be a back and forth argument since I'm certainly not the arbiter of balance on this PW. Simply I wished to bring this to people's attention, and the DMs can keep it as is, or change it.
These types of summons combined with some of their other features seem to be particularly deadly, yeah.
Agree :)
I think when it comes to issues of balance, it also needs to be viewed in a animation vs summoning context. I also don't think necessarily giving a direct comparison to monsters is entirely effective outside of a few areas.
For example, summons have a fairly short duration of one or two combats. A summoner isn't going to walk around with their summon 24/7 and thus could still be spied upon if they make heavy use of something like slimes.
That is perhaps the major difference between a monster, which is more-or-less an obstacle for someone with invisibility and/or stealth, compared to a summon which is designed to be tactically employed during a battle.
Most summons and themes have their advantages and disadvantages. That is part of the tactics of playing a summoner (IMO). For example, in order to hit some types of summons, you might need the magic weapon enchantment. Other types of summons have useful spell-like abilities such as the equivalent of color spray, etc. Some summons are very good at combat, some summons use ranged attacks, etc.
Of course, there is a major weakness in using summons that can be dealt with easily that does not even involve fighting them... which I'm totally not going to say here. >_>
Also, I should point out here that one of the major weaknesses of using slimes is that they move slowly. Someone who is invisible can easily out run them, and someone who uses expedient retreat or haste would largely make them irrelevant all together.
Step 1: /c hostile_all Step 2: Summon an Ooze
It's my belief PCs should never, even temporarily have access to true true seeing due to the grossly overpowered nature of it for detecting spies.
PC's already have access to true seeing. Any wizard capable of casting polymorph can turn into an umberhulk, which has true seeing. Shifters who can shift into slimes can have true seeing. Clerics with the proper domains get true seeing. Virtually all of those occur at level seven, so well within reach of the majority of the server.
Just FYI. :p
Umberhulk polymorph form should not have True Seeing, if they do it is a bug. True Seeing as cast as a spell by a cleric does not allow you to automatically see stealthed PCs. Shifters are very rare.
True Seeing ooze summons is definitely a major perk and bonus.
QuoteAlso, I should point out here that one of the major weaknesses of using slimes is that they move slowly.
Actually they move as quickly as a pc or any other summon does.
Quote from: Howland;171995Umberhulk polymorph form should not have True Seeing, if they do it is a bug.
Umberhulks have 60' tremorsense which is why the monster gets true seeing be default I'd imagine.
It's true polymorph shouldn't bestow a creature's special qualities (like tremorsense) upon the caster, at least according to the rule books.
As far as I can tell (once again per the pnp rulebooks), shifters and druids shouldn't be getting a creature's special qualities either, except for elemental forms.
Kill or dispel the summoner, done.
Oh and also in the case of the current summoner, get mediocre spot and listen too.
Sometimes you just can't rely on stealth to follow somebody. If somebody takes the time to prepare a spell that summons an ooze and randomly cast it with hostile all on. Well then they wasted that spell slot for that reason.
Though maybe make it so that only summon 3 or higher have the true seeing.
Bioware True Sight is stupid and broken. It really shouldn't exist in any shape or form, IMO. Nothing that negates a huge skillpoint/feat/equipment/stat investment without rolls is a very good idea.
A lot of the creatures I've summoned with true sight were using the 1.69 feat "tremorsense 60'" and not the old bioware true seeing.
Though I've only summoned plants and it only seems to be the higher level types.
True Seeing is a rather high level spell. Four or Five rank summons I would not having it, as opposed to -every single one mustered-.
What's that? My toolset doesn't seem to have it, and it's not documented in NWNWiki or anywhere I could find. Either way, anything that works without rolls and counters is a generally a Bad Idea.
Being able to instantly find anybody who follows you, be it by stealth or invis with a single first circle spell (or an item) is majorly overpowered in my books. I can understand certain dedicated casters at level 7 or so getting this advantage but right now it looks pretty mad to me.
And I can confirm Ooze summons can instantly see through invis and stealth.
Quote from: Barehander;172005What's that? My toolset doesn't seem to have it, and it's not documented in NWNWiki or anywhere I could find. Either way, anything that works without rolls and counters is a generally a Bad Idea.
It provides true seeing up to 60'. A fireball reachs 10' in radius so. I only recently found it and I'd never seen it before. I'll screenshot the summons ability next I get a chance to summon one though. (though getting a hold of assassin vine oil is not easy <_<)
Replace true seeing with tremor sense.
It only pierces invisibility, and not stealth.
If True Seeing is the issue, and players shouldn't have it, then it should be the spell that's changed.
I can say for certain that slimes do have true seeing.
I can't say for sure about Polymorphing into an Umberhulk or shifting into a Slime. I can say though that I've seen players do both in an attempt to detect invis / stealthing PC's. So I'm making the assumption that it does work.
I can say for certain that clerics with the knowledge domain get True Seeing at level seven.
I have not verified it, but I am also certain that Clerics with the Animal Domain get True Seeing at level five.
With all this in mind, it makes more sense to go after True Seeing itself, rather than to modify summons.
Slimes have True Seeing to represent the fact that they do not have eyes. True Seeing is supposed to basically be a work-around for Tremor Sense.
I never considered it over powered, IMO, because I knew that Clerics could cast such a spell, and always assumed that wizards could polymorph into an Umberhulk and have True Seeing at level 7 as well... (Which seemed balanced since Clerics could cast the spell.)
Thus, if there are issues it's with True Seeing itself. I would suggest that it be changed as follows:
The effects of see invisibility, and +10 to Spot and Listen. That'd make it a hybrid for the spell See Invisibility and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance. All of which are divination spells, including True Seeing.
True seeing is modified.
But when applied to items (With true seeing property) it reverts to original form
Quote from: Meldread;172030I never considered it over powered, IMO, because I knew that Clerics could cast such a spell, and always assumed that wizards could polymorph into an Umberhulk and have True Seeing at level 7 as well... (Which seemed balanced since Clerics could cast the spell.)
The spell as cast by clerics or wizards only provides See Invisibility and Immunity to Illusion Spells. This is documented in our mechanics changes thread.
Umberhulk form also only provides a +10 bonus to spot. This is also documented!
It may be worth going back and looking at the ooze theme again. Possibly off-setting the granting of real true seeing with a steep movement speed penalty perhaps; or just removing it all together on the lower level conjurations to avoid undedicated conjurers using cheap consumable ooze summon items as detection tools.
Here is a list of deities whose cleric's would receive True Seeing if they take the animal domain. They'd receive True Seeing at level five.
Animal Domain: Malar, Chauntea, Mielikki, Silvanus, Uthgar, Gwaeron Windstrom, Lurure, Nobanion, Shiallia, and Ulutiu.
Here is a list of deities whose cleric's would receive True Seeing if they take the knowledge domain. They'd receive True Seeing at level seven.
Knowledge Domain: Azuth, Gond, Mystra, Oghma, Shar, Tyr, Waukeen, Deneir, Gwaeron Windstrom, Milil, Savras, and Siamorphe.
Ahh... >_> Well that's good to know. :p
I just made a list of all the cleric's who'd be able to cast true seeing. BAH! :p
I think it makes sense either to have ooze move more slowly, or simply give them see invisibility and +10 Spot. My only concern is having oozes lose all strategic application. I'm speaking as someone who is playing a sorcerer whose only offensive ability is summons, with the summoning theme of ooze.
Part of the fun of playing a summoner is thinking of all the different strategic applications of your summons. Slimes are good against wizards who have a tendency to go invis at the very start of a fight, certain illusions are good against those with low will saves, celestials are good against melee characters, etc.
You can select the ooze theme by default last I checked (two weeks ago?) and they have the true sight under examination even at low levels. Umberhulk also has original true sight in it's current form.
I'm sure the second is a bug and believe the first to be a bit too strong in it's current form even if it's on purpose. They are using an unmodified form of true-sight and have good AB/damage/movement speed as well.
True Seeing only gives
See Invisibility and immunity to illusion if the mechanics changes are correct. It doesn't help see an actually sneaking opponent at all.
Honestly I don't understand what the big deal is, the
See Invisibility part of this spell is the only thing people are talking about, and that is a second level spell.
Quote from: Meldread;172035I think it makes sense either to have ooze move more slowly, or simply give them see invisibility and +10 Spot.
On this side note, the only reason spot was ever considered as part of an alternative to the normal version of
True Seeing was the fact that the PnP
True Seeing spell helps detect magically concealed doors and NWN doesn't differentiate between magically concealed doors and secret doors that are merely cleverly constructed. In my opinion, even if this aspect of
True Seeing were addressed, the relevant skill would be
Search, not
Spot which, would not harm sneakers.
Quote from: Razored Aria;172058True Seeing only gives See Invisibility and immunity to illusion if the mechanics changes are correct. It doesn't help see an actually sneaking opponent at all.
Honestly I don't understand what the big deal is, the See Invisibility part of this spell is the only thing people are talking about, and that is a second level spell.
The summons have the monster version of True Seeing, so they see right though stealth, no check. Therein lies the problem. The spell was changed, yes, but the monster version can't be.
Only a select few of those oozes should have the monster version of Truesight. Do they all, currently?
Also, ooze summon theme is going to be changed to EiG rather than being selectable as a default theme.
First, whatever stats or abilities may be in PnP is (almost) completely irrelevant to EFU:A.
In NWN, "True Seeing" is a spell as well as an item/monster property. The spell has been correctly modified to provide only true seeing and immunity to illusion spells. The item property can not be modified (afaik), and simply allows whatever has it to see everything.
For years the Umberhulk Form wizards have access to did not have the "True Seeing" property, but at some point someone was performing a module clean-up and deleted the custom hide we gave it to get rid of that. It's possible that it still has not been fixed.
If there is an item property (different from True Seeing) called "Tremor Sense" it is not something I am familiar with. And I don't have access to the toolset right now to check.
I will note also that it is impossible to adjust the movement speed of any summon, but the slimes were intended to move more slowly - it just doesn't work.
But all of that is just a distraction from the question, whether the oozes should have True Seeing.
It's a balance question that will be considered internally by the DM team and may or may not be adjusted.
Personaly I hate the way stealth works. I love the fact that these 40/40 rogues can now not stand undetected right infront of my face.
Truesight to everyone!
Quote from: Caddies;172061Only a select few of those oozes should have the monster version of Truesight. Do they all, currently?
Also, ooze summon theme is going to be changed to EiG rather than being selectable as a default theme.
All ooze summons have monster True Seeing. Even the first level ooze summons which are totally immobile and can't move at all!
Quote from: Razored Aria;172058...the fact that the PnP True Seeing spell helps detect magically concealed doors and NWN doesn't differentiate between magically concealed doors and secret doors that are merely cleverly constructed. In my opinion, even if this aspect of True Seeing were addressed, the relevant skill would be Search, not Spot which, would not harm sneakers.
If I am not mistaken on EfU stealth is considered semi-magical in nature. This is how Disco's complaint of being able to hide in the middle of a bright room, six inches from your characters face is explained.
Furthermore, true seeing on monsters is meant to represent tremor sense. For slimes, they get tremor sense because they do not have eyes. They do not "see" things they "sense" slight vibrations of movement upon the ground.
"Tremorsense" should be no argument for keeping a lame/overpowered property on the summons. Just because you have tremorsense doesn't mean you can infallibly detect everything: it should just mean you have a big bonus to Listen, in D&D terms. Someone with a huge Move Silently check could easily step lightly enough not to attract the attention of a tremorsensing creature; not to mention someone who stood still (like a spy in a room would). Even if tremorsense could pick up the slightest of vibrations, there would be no way to identify a light step from a falling leaf or the flow of air.
I hate explaining D&D in realistic terms, so the above is not an argument why Tremorsense shouldn't be infallible. I just want to point out that there's no better "IC" reasoning to keep True Seeing just because they "should" have tremorsense. The Realism Argument is thus moot. IMO, all you need to know to make the call is that True Seeing is lame and a Bad Idea.
I wasn't arguing for keeping true seeing based upon realism. I was explaining why they were given true seeing in the first place. I was also explaining how NWN Stealth is different from PnP stealth, being that in NWN you can be stealthed six inches from a PC's face and never be noticed even in a brightly lit room, but in PnP it doesn't work that way at all.
If I had my way, stealth would work the way it does in PnP, not NWN - which IMO is retarded, which is why it's considered semi-magical (the only way it can make sense). Alas, I'm pretty sure the way stealth works is hard coded.
Stealth working here like it does in PnP? Here, with an engine as close to real time D&D as it gets? Yea right...
But anyways, stealthing is already bothersome enough. Not sure if oozes are still as effortless to summon, but if they are, even then I don't see it that bad. Most wizards should not know when they are being stalked. Unless if they keep on casting oozes when they are suspicious (or see someone hostile them).
Could just leave True Seeing with the oozes and whatever else and put HIPS back in the game. Removing HIPS in the UD made sense, but on the surface, maybe it would even things out a bit.
I think I'm going to stop reading this thread.
The slime summoning thread is really strong, but only because of the TS ability.
I had always thought the balance came because it was the best PvP summon theme, but almost certainly the worst PvE summon theme.
Every single ooze has an AC of 6. This means the same gelatinous cube that is a scary in a mage duel, will be lucky to provide one round of distracting fire, and will rarely get more than a single hit in during PvE.
If you go up one of the other, commonly accessible trees your top level summons will have AC 24 and 28. That is a huge difference.
Yes the oozes are immune to mind effects etc, but so are most summons. Elementals, devils, plants etc.
The lowest level summon is immobile, which means it cannot be used for TS anyway. It is in fact the single worst level 1 summon in the game, since it cannot move and has a short attack distance. I have seen it not hit two rats that attacked it indefinitely, as it could not shift position even the millimetre required to strike at them.
I like the idea of removing ooze from the basic summon choices; since it does seem to be the default summon choice atm. Make it something appable or gettable IG.