Not that the new build isnt good, but how much cooler would it be if you had Improved Whirlwind Attack (//%22http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Improved_whirlwind_attack%22)?
Its just like the vanilla variety except 10 feet range rather than 5. It might come in at level 3 or there abouts?
I think that Weaponmaster's fine on what you get, just harsh on the requirements. The BAB was lowered but you still need 6 levels of Fighter to take it and all but one of your feats have to be the required ones (assuming Human bonus feat). I think it would be much better if it could be taken with fewer feats, to allow for more varied and non-human weaponmasters.
I'd be for this for the reasons mentioned. Some weapon styles/dual weilding variety would be sweet.
You actually only need five fighterlevels to take weaponmaster as it is right now, if I am not mistaken.
However, the bonuses they get are quite solid.
Perhaps making them get Blind Fight for free might be a good idea though.
I agree with Egon, at this sort of level the feat list is far too restrictive imo. You can go 4 fighter / 2 x as long as you're a human, but it limits the list of possible builds annoyingly (exotic only for humans, no free feats for any other race). Making it end two lines of "weapon specialist" feats like imp. disarm, spring attack, great cleave, or even just having the DMs accept that the PC's build, goals and focus defines them as a Weapon Master.
It's a crazy sweet PrC but it's always bugged me how difficult and specific it is to get on EfU.
You have to also remember, it's difficult for a reason. It's not Rather good weapon user, it's weapon master. Masters aren't popping in and out on every corner.
It not the earning it thats the issue here. Really that you need all these feats. Especially as whirlwind attack is somewhat bugged.
I'd like to see it possible for a weaponmaster halfling dual wielding whips.
Quote from: athousandyearsofpain;173826You actually only need five fighterlevels to take weaponmaster as it is right now, if I am not mistaken.
True. But to do that you have to be a pure Fighter who doesn't take anything but the WM feats (even Weapon Spec) unless they're human. Since it's an app class, what about lowering the feat requirements to Expertise, WF, Dodge but demand that the character's remaining feats have to be taken from those on the Fighter Bonus Feat list, and must be applicable to the chosen weapon? That would make it clear Weapon Masters have to be built to use a weapon, not have saves, or sneak, etc. Still restricts them to a minimum of 13 INT and DEX, but allow multiclasses, non humans, and dual wielders (without having to make some strange Ranger build).
That way, the difficulty in getting it would be the in game challenge, and having a solid concept. Right now, you're restricted in "Can I fit my concept into this inflexible build?" For example I'd love to play a Halfling Knifemaster with a pair of daggers, but then I'd have to bite the multiclass penalty and be a Ranger/Fighter, or not get Weaponmaster until about L9. I also couldn't multiclass to a class with tumble in order to avoid resorting to plate armor. Similarly it would be hard to play a Dwarf Weaponmaster wanting to use the Dwarven Waraxe unless you skipped on Weapon Spec.
Oh god I couldn't skip on weapon spec
It doesn't make much sense not to take it when your character is supposed to be specialising exclusively in one form of weapon to become a Weaponmaster. I thought it was a good illustration of how much you are restricted in a Weaponmaster's build and thus character concepts when for a lot of concepts you'd have to be a Fighter without the Fighter's one special feat. I could easily have said "elf, rapier, finesse" instead of "dwarf, axe, exotic". All the WMs I've known of on EfU have been Human and had the extra feat, or Nightriser and had the accompanying badass stats.
Quote from: 9lives;173844Oh god I couldn't skip on weapon spec
King Troll of Trolltown. <3 9lives.
it's called weapon MASTER not weapon guy with some preference and heightened proficency
to avoid derailment op's suggestion sounds fine but unnecessary
Getting stuck on a prestige class name is just silly.
Either way, variety is never bad. If build mechanics pidgeon-hole PCs into a single concept, then those mechanics are poor. All the ideological nonsense on whether they should train and behave like someone thinks they should is irrelevant, because the PrC prerequistives are a different matter altogether. If I had my way, we'd be freeform and didn't have rules, but alas. We'll just have to go for as great diversity as possible.
they are strict requirements but not impossible to work around. adapt to that instead of needing to ask for it to change
Why should you adapt to something that is not ideal, when it could be instead made ideal? That's a conservative and defeatist attitude. You should instead ask yourself, "If I were starting from a clean slate with no preexisting standards, would I still introduce these reductions?" (There's of course the question whether it's worth dev time investment, but I guess that's their call to make.)
I think it's generally a poor idea on such a low level server to go for Steep Requirements, Lots of Power. Instead go for Loose Requirements, Less Power. WM doesn't need more power, and certainly not just because it has steep requirements. That boosts the few marginal builds that can take it even further, while it does nothing for diversity.
If the intention is to encourage diversity (which should really be a no-brainer in server design), then there's clearly cause for improvement. I have never played a WM on EfU and have no intention of doing so anytime soon, so I can't comment on the power/balance aspect. But the diversity aspect is obvious to anyone, and it should take priority.
I think there is definite room for diversity. Zulfiqar was an odd build for WM, but he rocked it. (I have a sneaking suspicion who played him, but still, it was a pretty great concept) And who says you have to take a Prestige Class at the minimum level? I realize we play on a low-level server, but still.
Barehander makes some great points, but in the end, I think everything balances out nicely. I get the idea of lessening the requirements along with lessening the perks, but I think that just ends up watering-down the "prestige" of the prestige class.
@ barehander
i'm a defeatist because i think i can just make a build around it easily. what ?
i never said if something is too absurd then it can't be suggested otherwise, but such is only my statement on this which doesn't really seem that bad at all to me
i agree on the power/requirement respect but i think it's fine and managable already as are they regrettably needed to an extent
obviously 'diversity' is desirable, but what do you gain from making it more easily obtained? more room to make a build shine as opposed to actually having the prestige of making something that took some slight effort mechanically work?
i don't really think any past two weapon masters on efu have been very similar people, nor do i find it impossible to make any suggested weapon work with any race, bar like greataxe kobold or whatever. sorry
also lol @ what this topic started and then what it has turned into
Quote[Trolling] Naga's guide to making weaponsmaster
Go to Cookie Cutter Build Warehouse, pick up your "Human Fighter/Weapon Master Box Set"
Done.
Don't worry about customizing your character through the character sheet, you can't do much of that anyway so we just filled that stuff in for you. You get to choose your weapon though (if you pick a dual wield type you're going to be incredibly gimped)
[/Trolling]
In case you hadn't guessed it. My main issue with weapon master is the ridicules feat and skill requirements.
I'm a master of a weapon so this means I need feats that have nothing to do with my weapon like mobility, dodge, whirlwind and spring attack, I also need to be intimidating or they won't train me.
If the feats were even related to your weapon of choice like proficiency and focus/specialization I'd say okay.
The feat requirements as they are not only force you to have a specific set of feats, but also limit your stat distribution drastically. Leaving very little room for creativity save completely destroying any viability at actual combat.
I think from a PURELY MECHANICAL stand point the prc would look better with these requirements:
Naga's Weapon Master Variant:
Requirement: BAB +6
Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in the weapon.
Power Attack, Cleave
Discipline 8 Ranks.Plenty of room for customization, only ability point set in stone is strength of 13+ and a skill requirement that actually makes some sense.
Because if I can't go into battle with 18 STR, it's a goddamn tragedy.
Nice idea, Scrap.
I think the stats are meant to reflect the necesairt atrubutes a character needs to have to undergo the training. He can't be retarded, and he must be agile. 13 INT and 13 DEX is not too much when you think of it like that.
Maybe remove whirlwind attack off the requirement list? i heard i horribly bugged anyway. If you remove spring attack as well, there is enough room for a halflng kukri master. As long as we don't count intimidate in.
I say, keep it like that, just remove the 2 final feats and the intimidate requirement
You all are confusing Build with Concept.
There are a plethora of concepts that could fit to the standard weapon master Build. :-P
No 20 Str Half-Orc Scythe WMs Sowwy.
I think what they are trying to say, nut, is that it's kinda hard to make a duel whip wielding gnome weapon master.
I agree, Palemasters suck in a non-melee build and their levels should add on to Wizard levels for necromancy spells.
What I'm trying to say is that making a WM based on anything other than STR, non-exotic weapon and the WM feat list doesn't really work. You miss out on Weapon Spec, and KD, Exotic, or any other optional feat unless you're Human.
I would suggest giving Weapon Masters Uncanny Dodge I so that DEX characters are viable without unaffordable multiclassing, and changing the feat list to maybe:
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Expertise, Dodge, SF:Discipline.
You should need the 13 INT and DEX not 13 STR. If you want to learn how to be an expert at complex fighting techniques rather than just ME HALF ORC CHOP YOU HARD, you need some brains and grace.
@Nut:
There are plenty of concepts, but they all have to have a reason to wear heavy armor and not dualwield, finesse or use exotic weaponry. I can't recally one WM who wasn't a Human STR build.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;174392What I'm trying to say is that making a WM based on anything other than STR, non-exotic weapon and the WM feat list doesn't really work. You miss out on Weapon Spec, and KD, Exotic, or any other optional feat unless you're Human.
I would suggest giving Weapon Masters Uncanny Dodge I so that DEX characters are viable without unaffordable multiclassing, and changing the feat list to maybe:
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Expertise, Dodge, SF:Discipline.
You should need the 13 INT and DEX not 13 STR. If you want to learn how to be an expert at complex fighting techniques rather than just ME HALF ORC CHOP YOU HARD, you need some brains and grace.
@Nut:
There are plenty of concepts, but they all have to have a reason to wear heavy armor and not dualwield, finesse or use exotic weaponry. I can't recally one WM who wasn't a Human STR build.
Most powerful weapon master I ever encountered in nwn low magic was dex based and used a rapier/finesse.