I've been considering this post for a while now, and haven't made it because I know how people love to argue and tell you that everything works fine. However, considering the level of customization for classes, summons, wildshapes, etc, I feel that it would be nice to toss out some ideas for rogues. Before anyone says it, I don't so much thing rogues need beefing up as I feel they could use some catering too in a few areas to make them more useful.
A telling thing on any PW, I've found, is how many of a certain sort of class/build you see. Here you don't see a lot of pure rogues, which to me indicates that the player-base doesn't feel so motivated to play them.
Anyway, I'll toss out a few ideas:
1) Up the tries at Bilby's from 5 to 7. The problem here is more one for newer players who've never done the quest on any character before. It takes a couple times to learn it, meaning you toss those couple times away. The loot you gain can be very good, but I don't feel two more tries would be unbalancing. It would toss the players new to the quest a bit of a chance to make up for the couple times they totally blew the quest, and get decent loot in the end.
2) Add locked chests in quests. Another nice aspect might be to have an occasional locked chest with a DC in the 35-45 range at the end of some quests. Not necessarily the one with the best loot, but some very nice loot typically inside. This would motivate people to take along a decent rogue to these quests, making them more useful. It would also balance the fact that there's so many things on EfU that rogues can't sneak attack, making them far less useful in certain quests.
3) Add locked doors in quests. Something like a side room or two here and there, rooms you don't necessarily need to go in to complete the quest, but with some spawns and maybe a bit of loot where the PCs really would prefer to get inside.
4) More traps in quests, but this one is fairly obvious. Strong traps that you can't avoid, and need a competent rogue to disarm. By making them block passages, or putting them on doors and the like, you remove some of the metagaming of their positions as well.
5) More pick pocket opportunities. Being able to pick pocket some of the NPC merchants is very nice. But I'd like to see some riskier marks for this. NPCs where you get nicer gold, or maybe a chance of a piece of loot, but with DCs in the 25-30 range or so. Not many of these of course, just one or two that can only be done once/reset. If you miss you get rebuffed from then on, just like with the NPC merchants already in the mod.
These are just a few ideas I had to open up discussion.
I'm not fond of the "You need a rogue to complete this quest" idea. The side-rooms are fine and I think there are examples of that on coral cove. On a few quests there are indeed locked chests/doors that offer a higher chance at better loot.
Adding more traps and locks would not help pure rogue in the slightest as you could take a single level and up disable trap and open lock. Both of which already are quite useful on the quests that aren't frequented but give the best loot.
Pick pocket is handled so poorly in nwn much like crafting would probably be best if it was never included in the game period. Though if you mean risky as in "if you get caught this npc and his guardians will hostile and try to kill you" I'm all for it.
I wish there were more traps on quests that can't be avoided. People tend to metagame traps SO bad it is sickening in some cases. I agree with OP!
I think rogues could do with a little more love. Rogue levels are great, but as the OP said, the number of pure rogues compared to other classes isn't that great.
Quote from: putrid_plum;174256I wish there were more traps on quests that can't be avoided. People tend to metagame traps SO bad it is sickening in some cases. I agree with OP!
Never actually seen this myself. I dunno maybe I play with a different crowd.
Back on topic. Pure Rogues are great. Anybody who thinks they can't be wildly successful in pvp, quests and otherwise has probably not ever heard of Pyotyr. The level 9 rogue who wasn't even a combat build who took down 9-10 people at once alone at times with careful wand/trap use.
I don't think a class needs to be buffed just because so few people know how to take advantage of it to the full. Just takes quite a bit more mechanical know how to use them.
As a class labeled Jack of all Trades this should be a given.
Usually happens when you don't play witht he same players over and over, go to sending, etc, you will see this... so yeah I wouldn't doubt that you don't see it, but it does happen a fair amount.
Pyotr was amazing, but he also lived for a -long- time and inherited a ton of gold to buy said wands with.
Quote from: Relinquish;174265Pyotr was amazing, but he also lived for a -long- time and inherited a ton of gold to buy said wands with.
Part of the skills of a rogue, diplomacy and stealth make for longevity.
I very much dislike the idea that you HAVE to bring a rogue on a quest to get to that special chest, or that locked room.
I don't. Asides from sneak attack & stealth, what makes rogues good is the fact they can open that particular door nobody else can.
Maybe Bilby purchases traps at a special high price for rogues, to refill his test with them, so you could sell found traps to NPCs while regular PCs cannot
While pickpocketing is a neat implementation it is woeful that EFU has so few "Cool unique things" for the roguish sort to partake in.
Maybe the ability to try and cheat at Royal Dragon.
Maybe "rogue bonus" areas of quests: Not something you vitally need but there's a clear region of stuff that makes people go "If we brought one this would be way nicer".
Somewhat like how you "Have to have a ranger" to follow transition tracks to get some parts of a second quest, Rogues could be used in a similar capacity.
etc
Instead of opening a second quest it would lead to some random bonus room with tools/ that could be used on the quest or shared afterwords.
When I last played a Rogue even the pickpocketing stuff wasn't implemented but there is a great lack of emphasis placed on the sweeter science of shady class.
Nearly every class on the entire server but them gets both mechanical boons and server side perks that lead to money/use on quests/ otherwise.
Perhaps a quest (or add to an existing one) with an alternate route through a secrete or locked door or tunnel...
Path A, the main path has the majority of monsters and traps. Path B is the path taken by the inhabitants to avoid the traps of path A. Path B has no traps and very few encounters but leads to the same place as path A. You can do this without a rogue taking path A but if you have a rogue you might be able to get through that much easier without expending all your potions and what-nots.
How about taking some of those locked doors that go nowhere and making them into little low-level rogue only burglary mini-quests? Break in, steal the loot, and try not to get caught.
I also like RwG's idea.
IMO, pure rogues are without doubt the weakest class on EFU and I'd be interested in seeing perhaps some minor buffs to them. I do not like the 'more traps, more locks' ideas though. I was thinking something like a rogue-only shop, rogue-only methods of city travel, minor stealth/detection bonuses in city/sewer areas, and the like.
High level pure rogue only quest
Slippery Mind Feat given at 8 rogue levels (or 9...10...).
The thing about rogues is that are incredible for multiclasses but it is true they are very fragile as pure.
Personally, I think the fact that so few pure Rogues are played for any real amount of time is telling. Players will play what they perceive to be strong classes, however here on EfU:A Rogue has frequently been called something you multiclass in, not take full levels in.
After playing the only true Rogue here who's been around for any length of time over the last handful of months it just has become increasingly obvious that they need some kind of help, especially as near every other class has gotten some manner of buff. This is why I started this thread, I think it's a shame that such a classic class is so underplayed, and making it so that there's more around would only be a benefit to the PW.
Give them the something like ranger/druid skill/speed boosts but for city and sewer areas.
For example:
5 Rogue Levels : +3 Listen/Search/Spot (in town, ruins or sewers).
7 Rogue Levels; 10% movement speed boost in towns, Opportunist (+4 AB when making AoOs), Defensive Roll or Dirty Fighting?
Most multiclasses only take 3 rogue, and this would let a more dedicated rogue have more handy abilities. I don't think a 'pure' class is the key thing to promote bonuses for as you might just have one or two levels in another class to support your awesome rogueishness. That's the opposite of what it aims to block (1 rogue 6 fighter doing the Rogue Quest).
EfU:A has a LOT of unsneakable foes, which may go some way to explaining why players prefer to round out rogue PCs by multiclassing. IMO more Holy Traps, and maybe +AB vs unsneakable foes while flanking? Rather than aiming for the vitals, you aim more carefully?
Not to mention that the level range really precludes ever getting rogue bonus feats, which you get every 3 levels starting at 10. Defensive Roll as a free feat for higher level rogues wouldn't be OP considering it's a Fate Domain freebie for clerics.
I think that rogues are still a good class, its just that the current emphasis of the server has worked against them.
The current PvE public enemy number one is skeletons, and the Headhunters meant for a protracted time the main PvP was also skeletons.
I am sure the humble 'rouge' would have been more useful during the Orc problems.
I say, if it's possible, give them earlier access to their special feats, if possible. For example, at L7 or so, they can choose one of the normal L10 Rogue feats (potentially having to do so via craft menu, I'm not sure), and give them a method to get past Sneak immunity. Perhaps enemies immune to sneak will instead of suffering extra damage, get hit with better AB, as Egon suggested? I'm just pitching the idea.
scrappayeti did hit a good part of the nail though, the 'main enemy' at this point is skeletal, hence why Rogues aren't doing so hot. If that's the problem, maybe some rogue-only gear that helps them fight such? I know there's a tome that gives them access to Destruction and Undeath to Death for one shot, but that's rare. Something more subtle/weaker/common, like maybe a special item that's rogue only which creates similar, but far weaker effects, against undead?
The toughest thing about playing a rogue is AB. Rather than giving them AB outright, it might be nice to have a bunch of rogue-only items that give feats with Initiative bonuses. It's a good way to power up the rogue class without making it OP.
TBH the only reason I ever played a rogue was for pick pocketing PCs to start up rp/ conflict
Perhaps consider some perks only takeable by pure rogues, which are lost if multiclassing - as has been pointed out the pure rogue may need help, but the ranger/rogues would benefit equally or more from some of these suggestions.
Perks which grant increased duration of poison on weapons, a bonus to use magic device, the ability to craft something per day such as lockpicks or grace potions, or perhaps even giving them Improved Evasion early - although I think giving them crippling strike earlier is probably not a good thing as it can have a drastic and cumulative effect on many strength-based monsters, making them marshmellows for the entire team.
Yeah. Any benefits should be rogue level based. And I'm definitely for this. I'm for the a few of the rogue bonus feats being offered at level Rogue 7 (if this is possible). Not Crippling Strike, but Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind, etc.
A high-level rogue-only quest like Howland suggested would be sweet, as well.
Getting to choose a rogue only bonus feat that is not called Crippling Strike at level x as opposed to ten sounds like a very awesome option as to buffing pure rogues, as Pup said.
More reliable means to be of use against things immune to sneak attack, maybe a perk, or at level x some amount of sneak attack damage is effective on sneak attack immune creatures.
EDIT: If possible, some random spawning chests in quests/sewers/ruins/deep ruins/water areas with like sunken treasure/etc. with vastly varying DCs and loot seems like it would be a nice push in making rogues handier, as is their general style to be.
Random chests is cool. Option to choose a rogue feat at level 7 would be nice. Extra areas in quests that aren't required and maybe a rogue only quest as well for the higher end.
As someone who players a rogue/fighter (on a ratio of 3:1 mind you) I have to agree that pure rogues are severely let down in most PWs, not just EfU. Perhaps the implication of, as stated, rogue only quests or shortcuts. (Thieves cant messages dotted around the sewers to reveal hidden shortcuts/oppurtunities?).
Quote from: "Caddies"I was thinking something like a rogue-only shop, rogue-only methods of city travel, minor stealth/detection bonuses in city/sewer areas, and the like.
Rogue-only shops, city travel or other perks that are not mechanical I'd be in favor of. Rogues are absolutely a flexible class that offers many concept choices. Instead of focusing upon how weak/strong a class is in mechanical terms, why not focus upon what more properly represent your concept and stick with that, even if it makes you a bit less refined mechanical?
Rogue only shop with amazing 1 use things that are, "rogue only." Such as bolts, traps, etc.
Changing the AI of some monsters so that they can actually be sneak attacked. Duergar crossbowmen, flayers, all come to mind as enemies that should be able to be sneak attacked but can't be.
Adding / popularizing quests with enemies that can be sneak attacked.
Adding pure rogue stealth bonuses so they can be the stealth ninjas (as opposed to druids and rangers) they are supposed to be without a heavy investment in feats.
Adding more common +1 AB shortbows and crossbows into the game.
Giving bonus UMD to pure rogues.
Bonus UMD would be nice.
If stuff can't be sneaked that sucks too.
I think they should probably recieve some type of overland bonus when in interior/city areas, to better oppose druidic bonuses.
I like the idea of a stealth bonus around like 2/2 hide/ms when in the City, that kicks in at a reasonably high rogue level. Maybe even a minor speed bonus in the same fashion? Even if only minor, that would certainly be helpful if you're trying to stalk someone.
Also, I haven't really looked around at the server lately, but I remember on EfU we had a good few alley walls that could be passed with a tumble check. I liked how that gave you a sort of urban le parkour-ish advantage if you were trying to escape from someone/something or whatever.
So maybe throw in a tumle bonus in the City as well? And make those alley wall DCs pretty high so it's more of a path just available to high level rogues.
I enjoyed playing my Rogue for other reasons. All these little mechanic bonuses dont really make it appealing for me to play one for they weren't what drew me to the class. I think they divert attention from the important factors.
The fact that only a few people are playing pure rogues at the moment is really not evidence, at least for me, to modify the class. Very few people play pure class. While a party of fighters can be functional on a quest and a party of rogue cannot isn't really ground for modification either. This uniqueness or weakness of certain class is what makes it fun and quirky to play.
Having a Rogue on any type of DM quest is usually a MAJOR boon because they have the skill points for all these requested checks. They'll spot and disarm these deadly traps and so on. They are usually smart, wise, have the stats to solve puzzles, good diplomats to negociate extra rewards, bluff way out of sticky situations, etc. A pure rogue diplomat will always be more influential to NPCs than a Rogue / Fighter who maxed his social stats (in DM quests). This is unwritten but it's there.
i liked the idea of using deadly traps
Some suggestions of my own:
QuoteDisguise skill
Allow all characters to be able to disguise themselves, and give rogues a mayor bonus in this. Visually it can be a polymorph-self spell-like ability that transforms the character into another humanoid of the same size but with a diferent model. Maybe even allow at high skill levels disguise into totally diferent creatures (a halfling disguised as a goblin, for instance, or a goblin disguied as a halfling)
Any creature that comes nerby the disguied PC makes a spot check or something against a DC set by the disguised dude, and if he succeds a small message appears in his bar "You notice "XXX" guy is disguised" or something.
Give rogues an edge in this, perhaps giving them more models to chose from, and a greater DC. (Efuss skill + INT modifier + Rogue levels maybe?)
This encourages rogues to become spyies, criminals and the like, wich they should, IMO.
And it is just plain awsome too.
QuoteDiablo 2-like traps
Have some merchant PC sell items that can be carried and droped like the rune stones in the SoU OC, and when dropped they become placables. This palcables can be activated using the set trap skill to do various neat things.
Say for example, a small landmine wich when the enemy comes near it, will cast balgarian iron horn + a level 1 fireball and self destruct. Or a pocket balista that shoots arrows automatically at the enemies untill it is destroyed or runs out. A placable than casts a constant gresse spell arround it, etc.
Tumbling over barriers is pro. More tumble barriers within the ruins please.
QuoteDisguise skill
Allow all characters to be able to disguise themselves, and give rogues a mayor bonus in this. Visually it can be a polymorph-self spell-like ability that transforms the character into another humanoid of the same size but with a diferent model. Maybe even allow at high skill levels disguise into totally diferent creatures (a halfling disguised as a goblin, for instance, or a goblin disguied as a halfling)
Love that idea, its rp trigger. Unless the Stygg who is after the hin rogue bashes him down saying;
' you hins look all alike to me anyway'
imo, seeing some pure Rogue only UMD, stealth and social skills loot would be v. cool, allowing them to really excel in what they should.
Quote from: MoonlitNight;174556Love that idea, its rp trigger. Unless the Stygg who is after the hin rogue bashes him down saying; ' you hins look all alike to me anyway'
That sir would be metagame, since you need to beat the DC to realize it's a disguise. Unless the stygian had bashed down any other hin he had seen prior to this event.
I am in favour of small bonuses to the Rogue class, tumbling checks in city areas, and the plans to randomly smack down halflings. Good thought, Drakill.
IMO the rogue is a great class and is fine the way it is.
Most of the suggestions here actually don't change the class at all. They give ways to make the skills the rogue already does have become useful ingame.
quite negative
After running into some difficulties I have never encountered with any other character, I propose the following suggestions.
1. Make UMD apply to the herbalism, alchemy, consecration, and cooking EFUSS skills. It doesn't make sense that a properly skilled rogue can't do any of these things effectively, and UMD bonuses aren't really all that big. It might also be nice to add rogue levels to these skills if the PC has some investment in UMD.
2. Remove the "Do not use UMD" restriction for some common druid- and ranger-only stealth equipment, or at least let rogues get in on the loot that's already there. It doesn't make sense that these classes get special H/MS loot when they already have a much better native H/MS than a rogue. Druids can't even use their equipment bonuses while wildshaped, so what is the point of a druid-only cloak with 4 to hide when they can get far beyond that in certain wildshapes? Rangers don't need any help with stealth whatsoever.
3. Fewer monsters with immunity to sneak attack. The server is already crawling with undead in all the places where rogues want to go, there's no need to add snakes to the list. At the very least, if you're going to have a high AC boss with big HP and DR who drinks heal potions, let the rogue get in that odd 20 damage, just for kicks.
4. Do something about assassin vines. Rogues can do nothing against them on EfU, but dealing with a living trap like that is practically what a rogue is -for- in pen and paper. The description says, "Tentacled vines that sprout from the soil to ensnare their victims and slowly strangle them." AFAIK, they're supposed to be barely mobile anyway. A paladin should not be the best class to have against some slow, non-holy plants. Why isn't there a reflex save involved in there somewhere?
5. Ropes. Rogues use ropes. Give a rogue-only rope item the properties of a set of shackles. If not that, then leave a few strategically placed locations on the server to get from point A to point B with a rope and a tumble check. Both uses for a rope would be super sweet.
Just tossing suggestions out there. Like all free advice, it's worth what you paid for it.
Quote from: Lulzebub;1748464. Do something about assassin vines.
Just making them a reflex save vs entanglement would balance things, but these have been hated for so long by so much of the playerbas with no change, it doesn't seem likely to happen.
Quote5. Ropes. Rogues use ropes.
Alternatively, rogue only rope item that adds +5 Tumble for 2 rounds to let you make the shortcuts that exist more easily.
Also, as an aside, the change to Quarterstaves now means that Rogues have no innate proficiency in any 2-handed weapon unless they are Small characters.
Quote from: Egon the Monkey;174884these have been hated for so long by so much of the playerbas with no change, it doesn't seem likely to happen.
Hey, at least I'm making a suggestion that hasn't been made before, i.e., use reflex save instead of or in addition to fortitude save. A high reflex save should grant the ability to outmaneuver a plant. That makes pretty good sense, I would think.
A reflex save to dodge and a fort or str roll to resist fits in with pretty much every other debilitation spell I know of, so why not assasin vines.
Also, give us a bonus to using poisen. I got all this poisen but only assasins/BG's can use it?
I think rogues should receive some sort of bonus, but nothing major. We don't want them going from weakest, to strongest.
And in PvP cases, a "gank" rogue that buffs, sneaks, and knockdowns is deadly enough - giving anything that increases their ability in PvP is meh.
Really i think rogues should just get a stealth bonus in urban areas.
I like Dr D's suggestion most.
Quote from: GoblinSapper;174958A reflex save to dodge and a fort or str roll to resist fits in with pretty much every other debilitation spell I know of, so why not assasin vines.
Also, give us a bonus to using poisen. I got all this poisen but only assasins/BG's can use it?
Anyone can use poison. You must pass a Dexterity check to apply it without poisoning yourself. Assassins pass this check automatically.
yes but the DC on that check is ludicrously high especially for a 1-20 server, a rogues dex modifier will only be 3-5ish, and the poisen doesn't last long
Depending what poison you want to use the DC can be anywhere from 10 to 22.
Right and thats a d20 with a bonus of anywhere from 3 to 5. So at BEST you need to roll a 17 for the best poisen.
Yeah, the poison system on EfU is great. Making it more serviceable would be marvelous for rogues, but IMO it would really benefit rangers most. Dexterity based rangers would really benefit from poisons, while the rogue's sneak attack more than makes up for their lack of strength-based damage.
The thing is, rogues pretty much suck at everything they're supposed to be good at. They aren't the best sneaks, rangers beat them every time. There are no major locks or traps on the server for them to open up. They are supposed to make the best assassins (i.e. killers for hire, not the PrC), but it seems like even clerics are better suited for that, not to mention rangers. They just get outclassed all the time. They're the fat kid on the dodgeball team.
Considering that only rogues and bards get UMD, and that both rogues and bards have extremely weak AB, adding some more items in the loot tables for rogues and bards with Bless, Aid, Bane, and other spells once per day would not significantly upset the balance of the server. (And while on that subject, bards desperately need more spell slots.) Some more single use items with True Strike wouldn't hurt, either.
Outside of quests, the main goal of a rogue in combat is to defeat their opponent before they get a chance to get close and start attacking. If you can't stun or otherwise disable your foes after you've lost the initiative, you're guaranteed to die if you don't retreat. This makes PvP an all-or-nothing deal for rogues. If you're going to win, you usually know it right away, and the longer the fight, the more likely it is that the rogue will die. Small, incremental increases to initiative as well as minute, temporary bonuses to AB seem to me like they'd help a rogue the most without giving them an unfair advantage against other PCs.
Rogues do have some advantages in their ability to totally dodge fireballs with their high reflex and evasion feat. Also, I find groups really benefit from my ability with traps and locks. But activly, in combat, I lack the high burst dmg you'd expect from a rogue.
Honestly, I think the thing that would be one of the biggest boons would be a store where the Rogue could sell traps they picked up. A Rogue-only store that gives them a means to make gold using their skills. As it is now a Rogue with a high Pick Pocket can make a little gold, but the class that's supposed to be one of the most self-sufficient can't compete with classes such as Wizards, Clerics and such who can craft potions and wands.
I'm not saying that Rogues should be able to easily get rich off of this, but Rogues typically don't get as big a share of the loot as meleers do (understandably so). However, they also tend to use more supplies than spell casters just because they don't have those spells to use on themselves.
I really understand the problem with pure rogues.
Pure rogues are able to deal damage with their sneak attacks. Most usually are ranged but some are combat. Both still are useless against undead. A rogue's main bane is the fact that they can't sneak attack some creatures. This sometimes utterly kills a rogue. Also rogues have little hp which does not help the situation. Some people don't like to play them because of how fragile they are.
On most Player Worlds rogues are usually a multiclass choice. Most will take 3 levels at the most for that extra diplomacy skills, UMD, tumble, or just an extra sneak atk. From joining this server a few days ago I have noticed a high amount of these.
Playing a pure rogue is hard but is possible. You must have REALLY good deceptive skills, be able to use traps, wands, and use sneak attack to your best use.
Well, I reckon a big problem is that Darkness doesn't count as cover for Stealth and supposedly doesn't grant Sneak Attacks on EfU, which pretty much nullifies the purpose of the spell. And more importantly, that corner-sneaking is illegal. I find that the most idiotic rule on the server, to be honest. Not only is it perfectly legit everywhere else, it's also the bread and butter of any half-arsed rogue's basic strategy and extremely important immersion-wise. If you don't have to worry that you're going to lose a sneaky guy in a dark alleyway or a thick forest only to be ambushed again, stealth is pretty pointless. Especially since NPCs seem to do this. Corner-sneaking is not an exploit, it's pretty much the intended use of Stealth: you ambush, run the hell away, hide, and try to ambush again.
First step in making rogues viable is to allow corner-sneaking. I wouldn't even consider making a rogue-heavy PC before that was done.
Darkness was changed back to normal AFAIK.
Corner sneaking is illegal in PvP because you can use a bow shoot once, run away, stealth, repeat. It was ruled that you can corner sneak -once- if you are disengaging in combat and not going to re-engage.
Playing a pure rogue, as long as I have a good tank i'm golden really. Hit me with a mage armor and maybe a cats and I can even fight in melee. I just feel useless against anything I cannot sneak attack.
Quote from: Barehander;175407First step in making rogues viable is to allow corner-sneaking. I wouldn't even consider making a rogue-heavy PC before that was done.
The rule regarding tis was mentioned earlier, you can corner sneak once to disengage (if you intend to stay disengaged and not just shoot, corner sneak, shoot, corner sneak)
Besides the obvious reasons for this change theres also the fact that in D&D if you run a round a corner and stealth without hide in plain sight you are still considered "detected" unlike in nwn where you just instantly gain hips and vanish.
You can also use darkness/invisibility and stealth/get sneak attacks repeatedly.
Little scripted perks for rogue are nice and all, but really, I'd rather just have them stay the way they are and let the DM's reward particularly good pure rogues with particularly good rogue loot when they rock out. Could be worse, they could be sorcerers.
I don't see the "obvious reasons" for the change. Running saround a corner, coming back to shoot and running again are exactly what rogues are all about. Why on earth would anyone want to ban their primary tactic? Rogues take some skill and reflexes to play, but they can be one of the toughest PvP classes. Not only should guerilla warfare like that be allowed, it should be expected.
If Darkness was changed back, I reckon that too should be mentioned in the Mechanics Changes page/thread. I've been playing two months and steering clear of rogue for that reason, among others.
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;175440Could be worse, they could be sorcerers.
LOL. Yeah, tweeking classes should certainly not begin with rogues.
Pure rogue is sweet if you play it like the support class it is. Don't make a pure rogue and act like a fighter, that's for sure.
But hecks: they usually don't melee (so little harm), they evade, they sneak (meaning they can travel easily too), they UMD, they can melee fight if it come to it, they sneak attack lots of stuff (+2d6 easily avaible), they have huge variety of skills (including social skills which help a lot on DM quests), they can set traps (pvp friendly), ...
Aside from clerics, maybe bards, i don't see another class that is as versatile.
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;175491Aside from clerics, maybe bards, i don't see another class that is as versatile.
Ranger imo.
However pure rogues can be sweet. But I personally wouldnt mind seeing maybe an extra feat or something at level 7/8.
And sorcs have the potential now to be one of the strongest classes on the server. Bloodmage is rediculously powerful.
Quote from: Barehander;175485I don't see the "obvious reasons" for the change. Running saround a corner, coming back to shoot and running again are exactly what rogues are all about. Why on earth would anyone want to ban their primary tactic? Rogues take some skill and reflexes to play, but they can be one of the toughest PvP classes. Not only should guerilla warfare like that be allowed, it should be expected.
A player with 200 spot and 200 listen could easily be corner sneaked by a rogue with 10 hide and 10 move silent through the art of corner sneaking the way its handled in nwn. Thats why.
If that's what you wish to counter, you should stick to countering that only: enforce a one-round cooldown you have to stay in Stealth before you can attack again, for example. You couldn't mechanically enforce that, but so you can't enforce not corner-sneaking either.
The real problem, of course, is that SA works on ranged weapons.
But you have to be a pretty damn stupic PC with 200 Spot/Listen if you refuse to go out of the minimal Sneak Attack range or run to the corner and force a confrontation, tbh. It's not a balance issue, and it hasn't been on any other NWN server I've played, either.
This thread[ (http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=21773&highlight=corner+sneaking) may explain some of the concerns.
It has come up as an issue for us, though. I can think of specific examples.
I don't mind the idea of a rogue being a guerilla badass and I still think it's very doable to do but "corner sneaking" can simply be abused and -has- been abused.
An opponent can be chasing you down just a few paces behind but with corner sneaking you can STILL get away, regardless of the opponent's spot/listen scores. The engine simply doesn't handle it well.
We're starting to get off-topic, it goes without saying that rogues are very useful and can be played very effectively, for me though I'm interested in adding that extra level of EFU customization for every class so they're that much more special and interesting to play.
The nwn stealth system is godly as is compared to the stealth system it was based on. When you run around a corner even while "heard" you still vanish even though your target should still be able to hear you. Listen checks are negated.
As for "not a balance issue" it's quite possible to make yourself impossible to attack if you position yourself correctly even in a wide open space in efu as small hills effectively block line of sight in some areas.
The places it is possible to corner sneak are everywhere. It would be physically impossible to engage a rogue in combat if the corner exploit was allowed. It is considered an exploit due to the fact that it negates certain detection skills completely.
There's a difference between legit use and obvious exploiting, though. Seems pretty strange to be so anal about something that is only abusable in specific instances that can be further specified and banned in themselves. Kind of like using Restoration to get rid of item-given ability penalties: it's obviously an exploit, but not all use of Restoration is an exploit. It could very well be narrowed down.
I know stealth breaks combat and you don't get to roll Detect immediately. That's why there should rather be a cooldown (like many servers have introduced for HiPS, either mechanically or rules-wise) than a ban. But yeah, we're getting off-topic. But it really is the reason I ditched all my rogue bans when I found out about the rule.
That said, I don't think rogues really need combat buffs. Rogues are a strong but tactics-heavy class to play. More opportunities to use their special skills would be wonderful.
A new Disguise skill partially based on Bluff, Persuade and Rogue/Bard levels would be rad, for example.