I have to say i am a bit disapointed with this feat. I was hoping it would be more usefull, thus more of an incentive to be used on battle often, but the healing is too little (3Hp) and the temporal hitpoints almost irrelevan (1Hp) and really, it's just for the show: they don't help much. Sure, it's cheaper healing than buying cure minor wounds potions, but you can't drink too many or the DC goes up to 30 and you can't drink any more... i was hoping better liquor would give better bonuses, but that doesn't appear to happen.
I think it should be adjusted, more than giving healing, it should give a small bonus, but still significative. +1 AB and +2 saves vs fear for a small amount of time, dependant on the quality of the ale (watered ale something like 3 rounds, 40gp ale for like, a couple turns) so a PC is actually hoping to find/buy ale and use it in the battlefield to earn a small advantage.
o look there's a fire giant coming to smash us. I'll just grab my trusty drow azure wine and beat the piss out of it easy!
o look every perk has to have mechanical benefits
These perks are to add flavor, not be equal to feats or abilities. The more powerful ones replace existing abilities such as Turn Undead or Bard Song.
If you have low HP (wizard, rogue, bard, sorc) it really does help a lot. If it's improved, AB is probably the last thing it should have. If anything, drinking should make your AB worse.
Maybe the AB is too much, you're right in that.
However, i thought the intention of this perk was to have fighters drinking in the middle of the battle, to represent their drunken-fighter nature. Considering when you need the healing you'll probably opt to drink a -real- healing potion, and how expensive it will be to keep drinking ale, for nothing of worth, i dobut it will be used much.
My drunken barbarian uses ale now that he has drunken haze, as much as he did before getting it. There is no incentive to do so.
Plus, it looks ridiculous to swing 5 bottles of ale in 12 seconds just so they can do something.
I just wish more costly liquiors would give some good bonuses, for example, turnip Vodka could give +8 initiative and +5% movement speed, for a turn, or something. This way, a drunken fighter would not forghet to use it before battle, because it is usefull, and it would become a more usual aspect of the character.
The temporary HP gain is so minor that the risk of an AoO or the wasted round outweighs it, and it lasts such a short time you can't use it as a prebuff. All the perks *do* have some mechanical benefits to encourage using them to highlight an aspect of your character.
As Drakill points out, if this is meant to have PCs RPing being continually drinking, it needs to be worth it to do so. Otherwise you may as well take another perk and just booze because the PC would anyway. It's cheaper than Cure Minors sure, but it doesn't really reflect a "drunken haze" so much as a "drunken postcombat healing chugfest". 2gp Aid pots would be crazy though.
Perhaps a change to increase the benefits of Drunken Haze, but also the downsides. Apply a persistent penalty of -1 Universal Saves and skills, but +2 to saves and skills while drunk?. Then, your PC has to be drunk to be at his most effective, but the longer he keeps drinking the more likely he is to fail and keel over. Consider an alcoholic rogue who takes a chug from his hipflask to "steady his nerves" before disarming that Deadly trap? PCs having this would walk the line between being useful and being too pissed to do the job. That's some good RP right there.
I'd like to see something that affects combat as well, preferably if it would be seen graphically and prominently. A speed increse and always attacking first might achive this, the perk doesn't have to be too strong in it's mechanical effect, but it should be easily identifable and usefull enough for a PC not to fogthet to use it every once in a while.
+2 skills sounds exelent for the rogue, but won't do much for a barbarian, less we're talking about resisting taunt/knockdown (or taunting people) Perhaps both? +2 skills +5% movement increse and some initiative bonus?
What out a +1 competency bonus to atk and skill rolls, and a -1 when not under the effects of beer? Similar to the inspiration of a bard song.
Just live with the fact that not every perk has some awesome mechanical benefit. Don't think it should give x bonus because you interpret it in some bizarre way.
If the perk offers no reason to be taken, why is it even there? It doesn't even have a good visual effect, so it changes nothing.
Remove it and gimme a refund then, i'll take bloody mess.
lol i am glad i read this thread gg
Quote from: Winston Martin;177613lol i am glad i read this thread gg
I share the same feeling
There should be a random chance that each time you drink, you accidentally the bottle.
Quote from: Drakill Tannan;177384My drunken barbarian uses ale now that he has drunken haze, as much as he did before getting it. There is no incentive to do so.
This is where your reasoning goes wrong.
You're not supposed to be taking the perk so that your character can take up drinking and have a benefit.
You're supposed to take the perk because it adds a slight benefit to the fact that your character drinks all the time.
In other words, this perk is not an incentive to drink, drinking is an incentive to take this perk.
Quote from: Porkolt;177629This is where your reasoning goes wrong.
You're not supposed to be taking the perk so that your character can take up drinking and have a benefit.
You're supposed to take the perk because it adds a slight benefit to the fact that your character drinks all the time.
In other words, this perk is not an incentive to drink, drinking is an incentive to take this perk.
OMG WHAT?!
Quote from: Porkolt;177629This is where your reasoning goes wrong.
You're not supposed to be taking the perk so that your character can take up drinking and have a benefit.
You're supposed to take the perk because it adds a slight benefit to the fact that your character drinks all the time.
In other words, this perk is not an incentive to drink, drinking is an incentive to take this perk.
All that is well and good, but it still doesn't change the fact that there's a big fat unfair inbalance there.
This kind of argumentation comes up all the time, but it just doesn't hold water. You can guilt-trip the "powergamer" for expecting some balance in what is after all an action game, but I'm sure every necromancer is just happy getting free corpses every reset and every skald enjoys the extra attacks his songs can grant.
The sole purpose is not to pwn mechanically. Yet the perks give mechanical benefits, some of them very useful. They're meant for RP, but an action game needs to be balanced nonetheless. Perks are no different from feats and classes: you're "supposed" to take them because your RP dictates so, but it's at the same time obvious that as part of an action game they also need to be somewhat balanced.
It's not fun or fair to suffer for not playing a fat guy, bard or necromancer, for example. Neither is it necessary to balance them perfectly so that everyone's on the same line. But it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a totally underwhelming perk to be reviewed without being guilt-tripped to hell as a powergamer. (I'm not talking only or primarily about you, Porkolt, but all the trolls in this topic.)
The primary purpose of the perks is to be fun and cool, after all. Judging by the topic, Drunken Haze is neither fun nor cool.
I don't see why cheap alcohols couldn't work as Cure Minor Wounds and some more expensive ones as Cure Light Wounds, for example. So it's a slightly cheaper way to get unimpressive potions that you probably can't carry a lot of in your inventory anyway. Hardly game-breaking.
really if it's so hardly game-breaking, what's wrong with it just staying how it is? drinking heals somewhat as a cool thing for drunks. done
Quote from: Barehander;177635All that is well and good, but it still doesn't change the fact that there's a big fat unfair inbalance there.
This kind of argumentation comes up all the time, but it just doesn't hold water. You can guilt-trip the "powergamer" for expecting some balance in what is after all an action game, but I'm sure every necromancer is just happy getting free corpses every reset and every skald enjoys the extra attacks his songs can grant.
The sole purpose is not to pwn mechanically. Yet the perks give mechanical benefits, some of them very useful. They're meant for RP, but an action game needs to be balanced nonetheless. Perks are no different from feats and classes: you're "supposed" to take them because your RP dictates so, but it's at the same time obvious that as part of an action game they also need to be somewhat balanced.
It's not fun or fair to suffer for not playing a fat guy, bard or necromancer, for example. Neither is it necessary to balance them perfectly so that everyone's on the same line. But it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a totally underwhelming perk to be reviewed without being guilt-tripped to hell as a powergamer. (I'm not talking only or primarily about you, Porkolt, but all the trolls in this topic.)
The primary purpose of the perks is to be fun and cool, after all. Judging by the topic, Drunken Haze is neither fun nor cool.
I don't see why cheap alcohols couldn't work as Cure Minor Wounds and some more expensive ones as Cure Light Wounds, for example. So it's a slightly cheaper way to get unimpressive potions that you probably can't carry a lot of in your inventory anyway. Hardly game-breaking.
So pick a different perk.
Would it be cool to possibly enhance this perk slightly? Yes
Is it worth the time to do so? Almost certainly not
Are some perks better than others? Yes. Part of the issue may be that we've bundled in some class improvements (such as neat control of elements for casters and additional bard songs) in with a system that is just intended to help bring flavor not much additional power in the same system. But our intentions very much are just to add some fun little things, akin to taking EFUSS skills in astronomy or something. I know for me it's fun to see PCs take feats like Silver Hand or Thug, the perks are supposed to be something similar.
Are some feats/skills better than others? Yes
Really, though, the Drunken Haze perk is not suppose to be some complicated addition to enhance "drunken boxing" style combat or whatever but just something fun to take if you want to RP a drunkard. Sheesh.
The thing is, the perk is not only useless mechanically, but also RPwise. Drinking with drunken haze does nothing to the PC, nothing that -other- players can see, anyway, therefore, what's the point of even taking the perk, RPwise? I can just use the "drink" emote action and type *is drunk* and it's about the same.
If there were mechanical benefits, the change would be notable as well, because the PC would consitenly drink, seek good liquors, etc.
Without either, there is no point in taking the perk. Instead, i could have chosen to make another aspect of my character more visible, say, bloody mess because he's a brute, catnap because he's lazy, pathfinder... well, you get the idea. Taking Drunken Haze did absolutely -nothing- for my PCs abilities/Roleplay but taking the chance of another perk. And that, sir, is sad.
At least i wish i could re-take my perk, and ignore the durnken haze one ever existed. But as i understand it, once you take the perk, it is forever, and not even DMs can take it away.
...
WHO REMEMBERS QUINN THE DRUNKEN MONK
TNVW just won this thread. Yes. This would have suited Quin perfectly.
only if it did anything at all.
It's a quirky perk. Not all of them have to be utterly on par with one another. Not all of them are meant to be. Just like all weapons and all feats are not created equally.
I think I might vomit...
I wonder if there are people who don't play wizards because their spells aren't all perfectly balanced against one another.
I think i'm not making myself clear. I don't want balance, i want that characters with drunken haze perk are notably diferent from other characters.
You'll be notably different by being a drunken idiot.
So, supposedly if it heals like fifteen points instead of five or whatever amount, it becomes super noticeable? Does that really make those already inclined to drink seem cooler at all, or does it just promote people to abuse this perk for a mechanical benefit?
Just look at the obesity epidemic that surrounded the fat perk when it was initially implemented. People were being fat to get the perk, not vice versa.