I read on the old forums rangers get a +4 spot/listen/search bonus if they have 5 ranger levels and are in a wilderness area. The new forums do not list this but if it is still true then why shouldn't druids get this as well? I mean, you all gave them tracking so oviously they would be able to spot/listen/search for things better in wild places too.
Rangers still would have their favored enemy bonus above druids.
Just an idea, anyone?
Doesn't this refer to the Trackless Step feat, which druids get at level 3?
EDIT: That's the last time I quick scan the forums!
Trackless Step is +4 Hide and Move Silent in Wilderness areas. Nothing to do with Spot/Listen/Search.
Rangers get Trackless Step at lvl 1, Druids at 3.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Trackless_step
Trackless Step is MS/Hide bonus that rangers get a level 1 >.>
This is what plum is talking about:
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/index.php?pageid=mechanics
"Druid/Ranger.....blah blah text....
* Rangers receive a +4 Spot/Listen/Search bonus if they have 5 ranger levels and are in a wilderness area."
I think with tracking, not needing bedrolls and fire to sleep and custom animal companions and wild shapes druids have enough perks and giving them yet another would actually put them over the breaking point.
I wouldn't be for such a change. I think the focus of rangers as scouts justifies the bonus, and that focus is what seperates rangers from druids. Note that Search, Spot and Listen are Class Skills for Rangers, but Cross-Class Skills for Druids.
I believe that bonus was granted because rangers were weaker than other classes. It was a balance concern. Druids don't have this problem, as they are already quite powerful.
I agree with the logic behind this idea, but the argument of reason ("It only makes sense that ___" rarely has standing when discussing NWN and DnD mechanics. >.>
I'm for it.
Druids are good but not all ending, nor would this put them over the edge. Noting that a skill is class or not doesn't really work since druids also don't get hide or move silently but I doubt you will find many druids that haven't invested in it some what with feats, cross classing, gear, spells (that rangers get but later due to having class skill most likely). I think it makes sense that a druid is keen on spotting things in the wilds. For example, why wouldn't they become more adept at noticing that lurking feline that is getting ready to pounce? In addition, with tracking nerfed due to abuse, I think it would make sense.
For your thoughts RIP, I think you should realize that animal companions are not the greatest, they are good when you hit lvl 7 or above truth be told (though some people are obviously able to use them effectively at other times depending on situations). Wildshapes are there because that is the normal, yet they are nerfed to give uniqueness but yet are still weaker. Basically they are a situational thing, as you will see rat being used most = horrid at anything but stealth or one of the things that has a limited use and then turn right back. Rangers only need a bedroll which puts them on par with druids because it is only 15 lbs extra at most.
Yeah, so, I would like to see this. Even if not search, at least spot/listen bonuses would be nice.
I'm not really convinced.
Druids get wildshapes at level 5 that give them fairly good hide and move silent, and coupled with their spells put them well past rangers already.
What druids lack, and should be fixed is that these forms have strength that is so low that it becomes incredible difficult to actually use these forms in stealthy ways.
Druids don't really need any help in getting a better stealth modifier. They already have the capability to get a stealth FAR above anything rangers can get.
Rangers get one little perk.
Other than maybe some wildshape issues Oro mentioned, I can't imagine druids needing help in being stealthy(I'm not familair with wild shapes in EFU:A other than the stealth modifiers).
Druids are not rangers are not barbarians. They already share more than enough traits, if you ask me. >.>
Quote from: Oroborous;91626Druids get wildshapes at level 5 that give them fairly good hide and move silent, and coupled with their spells put them well past rangers already.
What druids lack, and should be fixed is that these forms have strength that is so low that it becomes incredible difficult to actually use these forms in stealthy ways.
I have used these forms successfully my entire character. I have given up carrying more than 20 pounds in order to have over 50 stealth. I think that is a fair trade! As for the original topic, I agree that this small bonus should be given to druids. This is not a major mechanical change. It will help find some of the secret doors and vines and stuff that we've already found, but need to walk around for minutes before we roll high enough because there is no auto-20 for finding them, and search, like hide/ms, is not a druid skill for some reason. It is a 20% increase in finding someone stealthed, and a 20% increase in finding a trap door, per round. This will not help on quests. This will not help in PvP. This will not help in most roleplaying. Ultimately, it helps druids see some stealthed animals (usually leopards), and helps druids find the secret places they already know about.
I believe druids are fine as they are. There are one or two wildshape forms that give a significant boost to both spot and listen skills. There are feats that can help with this as well as cross classing skills if you feel the need.
On top of druids having wildshape, EFU has provided us with an expanded selection to choose from. That is huge. As for weight restrictions, you really have to balance out what you want to accomplish and lighten your load if you feel that you will be shifting that much.
Definitely early on I tried not to carry more than 50 lbs so that I could always have free movement using the smaller forms, but I understand that as you progress you obtain more stuff..which sometimes means your priorities change.
Be glad that chicken form has 2d6 dmg.
It doesn't fit, imo. Druids are more focused on casting, and then assuming a shape that fits their needs. If they need to search for something, then they wildshape into a hawk or something fitting.
Plus if you argue that druids deserve a bonus to search/spot/listen in nature, then it's a neverending cycle.
"Class X deserves a bonus to detection skills in environment Y because that's their normal terrain."
Then, Fighters deserve a bonus to detection in town.
Then, Barbarians deserve a bonus to detection in mountains.
Then, Bards deserve a bonus to detection in Taverns
Then, Wizards deserve a bonus to detection in Libraries. :rolleyes:
Rangers get this specific bonus because it's part of their flavor. They're stereotypically Woodland Scouts. No reason to dilute the classes more.
QuoteThen, Fighters deserve a bonus to detection in town.
Because all that dragon slaying, virgin rescuing, dark lord vanquishing, and army routing happens right there, in town square ;)
But I agree overall that dr00ds probably don't need more skill points in the awareness skills. Much as my dr00d playin buds will ostracize me for it!
no more buffs for Fipya
erm, well im sorta on the fence with this one. Whilst i dont think give druids this perk would make them imba, or even slightly overpowered for the matter, I can understand why they actually need it.
Yes druids are wildmen and they should know just as much about the woods as anyone else including rangers. However, Haven't you notice druids get some awesome hide/ move silently buffs in the wild, that can make them better than ranger in that respect. One with the Land being a huge bonus that rangers do nto have readily available to them. Also in terms of skill points. Yes rangers can put skill points into hide/move silent but druid get other advatages and specialisations that make up for it. If you really are that bothered you could always dump 2 points in and level it anyway. As for spot and search, i think druids dont need it. like someone who i forget said, druids can shift, thats good enough for me.
stop bitching, druids are pwnage anyway. :)
Rangers get One with the Lands and Camo, just to let you know. Sure they can shift but ever tried to do something when you have like 4 strength?
I AGREE with what was said below me :)
I like how all the people playing druids think this is a good idea, but the people who are not playing druids think it is a bad one. Druids are hardly 'pwnage', or 'caster focused'. They get less spellslots than any other casting class, have restrictions on armor usage, weapon usage, and variability of spells, and get many of the spells other classes get later, like cure serious wounds being a L4 spell instead of a L3 spell. They have forms-- many of which overlap and none of which are combat oriented. Not to say that they are bad forms, they are just not combat suitable. When you shift, all your gear gets taken away in a sense, so the moment you earn some sweet loot you could use in combat, you have to decide between using it, or morphing into a spider, because you can't have both. There are no forms with +search, but that might be a good suggestion to add in instead of this!
Saying that 'they shouldn't get +spot because they have giant +hide' doesn't mean anything, because taking hide is a choice a character has to make. It is not a druidic skill, so you have to cross class, usually also take feats for it, and combine that with one of the forms that gives you -10 str. Rangers have high stealth, but they also have higher HP, no armor restrictions, no weapon restrictions, higher AB, more AB vs their favored enemies, and have hide/ms as a class skill.
This does not make druids rangers or barbarians. It makes them druids- masters of the wilderness. This bonus is so minor that all it does is add in a 20% chance increase per turn to see a trap door or stealthed person, and in reality most druids do not have massive spot because that is not a class skill for them either, so the +4 will not aid them in any way except to see wilderness trapdoors easier.
If you want to pick out specific spells to prove your point with a druid, well, it's pointless.
Cure Moderate:
Level 3 Druid spell
Level 2 Cleric spell
Yes, they are worse at healing than a cleric, but you can easily pull spells that go the other way.
Flame Strike:
Level 4 Druid Spell
Level 5 Cleric Spell
And,
Hold Monster:
Level 4 Druid Spell
Level 5 Wizard/Sorc Spell
Giving Rangers a boost to their spot/listen/search -fits- the class, because they're designed to be excellent trackers/scouts.
Druids are designed to be subpar to rangers when it comes to scouting, tracking, hiding and so on. That's why the skills relating to that are cross-classed for them.
And yes, they do get trackless step, which boosts their hide/ms, but that's really just a screwed up thing bioware did. In PnP trackless step just did what its name implies, made it so druids and rangers could choose to not leave any trail, making them untrackable.
Back on topic though, I wholeheartedly agree with boosting a druid's detection skills when they use certain wildshape forms! That's an excellent way of adding to the classes flavor instead of blandifying ranger and druid into an even more similar paste.
Remember that the Druid thing is all about the Balance, people. If Druids get too powerful, then the Balance is disrupted!
Edit:
Quote from: "LackofCertainty"Back on topic though, I wholeheartedly agree with boosting a druid's detection skills when they use certain wildshape forms! That's an excellent way of adding to the classes flavor instead of blandifying ranger and druid into an even more similar paste.
By the way, LoC, them druids already have a shape or two that give them bonuses to spot/listen/search.
I play a druid in fact i play two. And i dont really care eaither way, i think that by giving out this perk will just cause a bucket load of bitching from rangers. so imo not worth it.
Contrary to popular belief, druids are not gods and do not get to do anything and everything they want just because they are standing next to a tree. Druids are more like tree hugging environmental protection agency nannies and although they can survive in the outdoors, they are not hunters, trackers or warriors. Or at least they are no more of a warrior than a monk, that isn’t allowed a dodge feat perk or a fighter that cant find or afford a healthy set of plate armor until he’s 6th level.
I think ya’ll been reading too many stories about Alanon or something. :rolleyes: