Not sure, if this should be here, or under Bug Reports, so apologies if it is in a wrong place.
If it is a recent change, or it's not, or a bug, I have not a clue.
However, spells mentioned in the topic (havent checked Grease yet), when they affect an enemy, break the casters invisibility, so basically, caster crowd control is totally gimped.
What's the point of casting Darkness/X on the mobs, and drinking an invisibility potions afterwards, if everytime something steps into the area of the spell, your invisibility will break, and most of the mobs will go directly at the caster anyway?
To answer a question which will probably come up - that casters should self-buff as well, not to die and all, I realise. Still, if things go wrong, those AoE spells mentioned, are now more of a suicide thing on quests, than actually any help. For what is left for the caster is to stand and chug healing potions until the spell wears off, so he can invis again.
My suggestion: Make those spells NOT break invisibility, as it makes them absolutely redundant for now and totally not worth using as pure caster classes.
(To clarify if the post is unclear - Im talking of this order:
1. Caster uses one of the mentioned spells
2. Caster invises himself
3. A mob steps into the area of the spell, breaking the invisibility.
4. Caster drinks another invis, but mobs remain in the AoE, cosntantly continuing to break the invisibility)
Agreed.
If this is possible, I would like to see it changed so but I believe this has been discussed before.
It should break invisibility upon casting it on a crowd, for certain. But after that it shouldn't keep bugging your invisibility, takes away a fair share of creativity to a spell book.
This is particularly awkward for darkness. I had one PvP where I didnt realise how it worked, and I cast darkness after summoning a swarm of summons. I blithely wandered out of darkness fully visible, against expectation, and the opposition charged me. I went inviso again, and it turned off a second time as more ran through. I invisoed a third time, and that one turned off a little later, as the last of the players cleaned up my summons and ran through the pool of darkness. This last time I was next to a monster, which could easily have killed me.
If I was fighting a wizard in a group, and they made the mistake of casting one of these spells, I would just walk in and out of the AoE constantly - you get instant inviso dispel from any range - pretty handy.
Sounds abusable and therefore would be nice to change if easy to do.
I do not agree with the above suggestion. It gives casters a rare moment of vulnerability. Invisibility already has SO many uses. Why do casters need to be invisible all the time? If they use blur / barkskin / mage armor they can be fairly durable. Why not cast web, and then darkness, and hide in the darkness? Or darkness / stealth?
I think the bigger issue is that all cloud spells only use the on enter script, and fail to utilize their heartbeats, making them really pretty worthless. One save for the orc as he crosses the web is just not good enough for the risk that using those spells entail.
Very abusable. Also, with the current 'smart' AI, most of the mobs instantly go for the caster after the invisibility breaks.
Experienced it on the Duergar Mine just recent, thought Darkness might be a cool idea to confuse the x-bowmen. It did confuse them. Most ran out of it, and started shooting at me, as it kept dispelling my invis >.<
QuoteIt should break invisibility upon casting it on a crowd, for certain. But after that it shouldn't keep bugging your invisibility, takes away a fair share of creativity to a spell book.
Sounds completely unuseful to a caster if this happens.
Additionally casting these spells DOES not break invisibility. They can be layered quite thickly before anyone can spot you -- and then invisibility will only be broken when they enter it, and are screwed.
Quote from: Gippy;179415I do not agree with the above suggestion. It gives casters a rare moment of vulnerability. Invisibility already has SO many uses. Why do casters need to be invisible all the time? If they use blur / barkskin / mage armor they can be fairly durable. Why not cast web, and then darkness, and hide in the darkness? Or darkness / stealth?
I think the bigger issue is that all cloud spells only use the on enter script, and fail to utilize their heartbeats, making them really pretty worthless. One save for the orc as he crosses the web is just not good enough for the risk that using those spells entail.
That would work too. Still, it's not a 'rare' moment of vulnerability, Gip. Assuming you're a level 9 caster, it's 9 rounds. That's over half a minute of not being able to bail if things start to go wrong!
Quote from: Gippy;179418Additionally casting these spells DOES not break invisibility. They can be layered quite thickly before anyone can spot you -- and then invisibility will only be broken when they enter it, and are screwed.
EDIT: Oh right, didnt read properly ;)
Make them break invisibility upon casting then, perhaps?
While a mage certainly doesn't have to be invisible the whole time, I think it'd be kind of nice to not have your invisibility stripped everytime something enters the AoE. I think it should just be flipped so that when you cast it on someone/a group, it strips invisibility but then when things enter it doesn't. This way, people know who and where the casting came from and can pop a see invisibility and try to track them down.
I remember one time where i threw chocking powder into a mob. I wasn't invisible, rather, hiding behind my full bab meatshields when things went wrong. The logical response to that is drink an invis and get the hell out of there. I drank 5 potions of invis nearly in a row. But they failed to have any effect due to this mechanic. And that sucks.
If casting the spell breaks invis, i'm all in agreement with that. If an enemy stepping on gresse breaks invis, that is just a flaw in the mechanics of the game, tbh, pretty much, a bug. I am CERTIAN this wasn't intended.
It's a no brainer, in my opinion. It should be changed.
However, since DMs never seem to take into accound anythig that benefits wizards/sorcerers...
I had suggested this before, why not script an "End area of effect" command? It existed on thain, and basically, it allows you through typing something like "/end aoe" and ends all the effects of say, cloudkill, entange, gresse, darkness... etc. This allows you to abort and escape if things go wrong, just quickslot the "/end aoe" comand and just after clicking it, drink an invis pot, and flee.
It's an improvement for sure.
If invisibility is "too useful," then stealth is way too useful. Invisibility's usefulness is binary. Once you're discovered, you're caught. A stealth character can use darkness or some other method to hide again.
The biggest issue here is the exploit. If nothing else, PCs should not be able to trigger a remote invisibility dispel from all the way across the server.
Quote from: Gippy;179415Why do casters need to be invisible all the time?
They don't. I generally tend to prefer blur to invis on a lot of quests anyway as it doesn't break. However, if you've done a persistent area spell THEN invis you're probably trying to pull someone's ass out the fire then get safe yourself, or cover a retreat, hence invis.
All deliberate offensive actions should break invis, as you're making a decision to put yourself at risk in order to harm something. So these should break invis to cast, like a fireball will regardless of if it hits anything. Once something's laid down though, you aren't in control of it any more, so any actions shouldn't incure a cost to you. I like Drakill's idea if there's no way to have cast cloudspells belong to "someone" rather than a PC. You could cover an escape with a Web, say, then end it, leaving the victims stuck but without it being able to trap new targets or break your invis.
Quote from: Gippy;179418Additionally casting these spells DOES not break invisibility. They can be layered quite thickly before anyone can spot you -- and then invisibility will only be broken when they enter it, and are screwed.
We are allowed to layer cloud spells? That's real good to know.
It might actually be better for the server, lag-wise, to make spells like Web, Entangle, and Grease a one-shot that just affects the initial targets but doesn't create a persisting "zone." (The web clings to the creatures in the area when it goes off, but is easy enough to walk over by other creatures; entangle vines come up to grab the targeted creatures rather than writhing all over the place; magical grease lubes up the targets and quickly dissipates.) This also has the added benefit of not even accidentally being stacked.
Darkness can't be altered this way since it's a curtain of darkness. It might be possible to have the darkness AOE object destroyed via a "/c dispel cloud" issued by the caster, at least, so that if the caster decides that darkness (or other AOEs that can't be turned into one-shot spells) is less useful than invising and bolting, then jerks (or AI) can't keep hopping over the AOE line.
lingering AoE spells don't have their heartbeat trigger on EFU, they do their effect upon casting and fading, and only if you re enter it.
I really like Scotty's idea.
I like Scotty's idea too. And Drakils.
However, there's a thing about Web/Grease, which would not correspond with Scotty's idea, I think.
Both spells give a movement speed penalty, which the suggested idea would probably null.
And there's still the matter of Darkness/Gas Clouds.
I would incline myself mostly towards Gippy's first suggestion, about adding/fixing the OnHeartbeat thingummy, if it is even possible. Would make those spells work as it should!
In addition, if a "/c dispel cloud" would be added, it would make it perfectly usable!
I had always assumed fixing the heartbeat issue was impossible, the game was so obviously designed with that continuing effect in mind. Consider Acid Fog, 6th circle spell, supposed to do 4d6 a round. Now just does 4d6 once. That is, well, terrible.
If the heartbeat can be fixed, then that is obviously a huge boon. If it cannot, well, fixing the passive effects of persistent spells would be nice.
Quote from: ScottyB;179474It might actually be better for the server, lag-wise, to make spells like Web, Entangle, and Grease a one-shot that just affects the initial targets but doesn't create a persisting "zone." (The web clings to the creatures in the area when it goes off, but is easy enough to walk over by other creatures; entangle vines come up to grab the targeted creatures rather than writhing all over the place; magical grease lubes up the targets and quickly dissipates.) This also has the added benefit of not even accidentally being stacked.
Darkness can't be altered this way since it's a curtain of darkness. It might be possible to have the darkness AOE object destroyed via a "/c dispel cloud" issued by the caster, at least, so that if the caster decides that darkness (or other AOEs that can't be turned into one-shot spells) is less useful than invising and bolting, then jerks (or AI) can't keep hopping over the AOE line.
If this were to be implemented, how would this negatively or positively effect the power of the spell? Can you give a more precise description of what happens to victims inside the webbing?
As I read it, the spell would either be a heartbeat-style spell ONLY for those caught in the first Web or Grease spell, or it would act precisely as it does now only without the misleading graphic effect?
No other server I play on has that heartbeat problem.
Quote from: FishyBusiness;179485Both spells give a movement speed penalty, which the suggested idea would probably null.
People should note too, that that is the
only thing greese does.
Not sure if Grease breaks invis. I'm willing to do some testing of all the AoE spells and put a list of what works and what does nothere.
Grease has a reflex save versus knockdown Drakil, even with freedom of movement you're supposed to save vs knockdown, you just rarely see it due to the heartbeat bug.
In the stealth vs invisibility underpowered overpowered argument obviously stealth requires some investment whilst invisibility requires one spell or potion so one should have vastly more utility than the other.
I'd like to see the spells fixed so their heartbeat works. As for invisibility breaking. Thats working as intended, each save made against a grease, web, cloud of bewilderment counts as a hostile action.
If the heartbeat worked as it should then these spells would be perfectly fine and not require any modification to make "better" having their effects be instant one shot would make them near worthless.
On a side note the aoe spell gust of wind can be cast from invisibility without breaking it and it's pretty crazy if used right.
If persistent AoE should continually break invisibility because it's considered a hostile action (I'm sorry, I don't see how it's an action once it's cast though), then so should summons attacking.
What does EFU do that causes this heartbeat problem? I've never seen it in any other server, and it explains why chocking powder, gresse and pretty much all the could spells i love to use, such so much.
All persistent cloud spells are wacky on every nwn multiplayer server. You have to go out of your way and script changes in order to make them behave in the "expected" or custom ways.
Then perhaps it is simply fixed in the other servers i played in.
Though, now that i know for sure this is a bug, i can't fathom how is it that it hasn't been top priority to fix, or is it that the DMs haven't managed to figure it out yet?
I wish i knew how to script, i'd help in any way i could with this if that allowed me to make a mage that worked as intended.
I kinda want to know which wizards use cloud spells regularly...
Very few do, so not really worth it.
I would. Especially at higher levels. Although, a wizard that casts a stinking cloud over his enemies in the chokepoint where his allies fight (who would be protected) is amaisingly fun, and powerfull. Druids that use gresse to get a great advantage are also fun to play, or entangle, etc. I've always been a fan of using web to hold off the first enemies aproaching then when they are all toghether cast a fireball and get more than one usually would.
I've used conjuration spells as Drakill describes and he's right, it's really amazing when you can pull it off. Those spells can turn the tide of a battle from "OH SHIT NOES!" to "We got this, mayne."
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;179662I kinda want to know which wizards use cloud spells regularly...
Very few do, so not really worth it.
There's so many single-use consumables with those crowd-control spells on most of the quests, I tend to collect all loot throughout, and use minor-helpful stuff like that all the time myself. Gives a caster something else and fun to do, aside of being a buff/heal bot.
Not to mention, that if a party gathers loot after everything is killed, backtracking the area etc, most of those consumables no one even bothers to pick up!
So yes, I think what's needed here is:
Not fixable.
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Fixed next reset
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Hostile actions break invisibility.
Quote from: Thomas_Not_very_wise;179662I kinda want to know which wizards use cloud spells regularly...
Very few do, so not really worth it.
Mostly because they're broken. ;) If they were working you would see them used, trust me.
Yep. And it would end my eternal frustration for not being able to use gresse effectively as my druid.
Say, i'm bumping this. Will it get fixed soon?
This really should be a no-brainer. Casting a hostile spell should break invisibility. So covering a choke point with darkness, a web, or wall of fire or some other spell like that should break invisibility. However, someone stupid enough to walk through it instead of waiting for it to go away is like someone stupid enough to run into your sword, it isn't you attacking, it's them hurting themselves on your obstacle. Unless you cast a dominate spell on them, you did not make them walk into the fire.
So, yes, can we please make it so that these spells that have persistent effects over time, like grease, wall of fire, black tentacles, web, darkness, etc. only dispel after being cast, and not whenever someone is affected by them?
Please