Perhaps not so much a suggestion as an opinion.
I ran into a goblin assassin on the road to the Webbed Wood. I neither heard him with the max listen for my level nor had a better than twenty percent hope of making my saving throw, and only then if I had been buffed. I was pretty much doomed the moment I spawned that NPC.
Being ninja-killed while strolling through the usually safe areas of the road is neither challenging nor fun. NPCs who can and do deal out instant death with no real hope of response or escape for relatively high-level PCs should not be wandering around areas where low-level PCs are likely to travel or congregate. It feels like the equivalent of encountering a hostile medusa in the Gobsquat.
I like the goblin assassin spawn. I want to see more spawns like this. I just don't ever want to see them within three area transitions of the ziggurat unless they are being controlled by a DM. That particular encounter left something to be desired.
I can admit that I have seen someone on the sloped road get hit with a death strike before by said assassin and had I not made my spot/listen check, I'd have never seen him to open fire, sparing the player from actually going to the fugue.
I agree that these are fun spawns, they make walking around that much more dangerous and point to the fact that solo exploring is even more dangerous, but they do need to perhaps be a bit further away from the entrance of the first 'explorable' area really.
I love goblin assassins and actively hunt them when I'm bored. They always drop nifty little loot packs(two very useful potions) and are really not that bad. There are "Great lizards" and "Greater Werewolves" that spawn in the same place.
Ymph is not a safe place, even close to the settlement should be dangerous. The dangerous spawns seem quite rare nearer the ziggerat. I've only ever seen 3 goblin assassins along the nearby roads in dozens of treks. I think it would be undesirable to have "safe" wild lands just because they're near an unsafe undead infested settlement!
The Webbed Wood is hardly a newbie zone, being filled with spawns and as you said a full three large areas from the Ziggurat (and in the opposite direction of the city, into the wilds). While you can get unlucky with the Spot/Listen checks quite easily, I don't remember their stealth being broken at all. Moreover, the DC on the DA is definitely modest, with roughly 50% chance of saving for even low level PCs without a primary Fortitude save. And if you refrain from traveling alone, your party members can easily kill the assassin before you die yourself.
Seems unnecessary to me!
Other area where they seem to spawn is on top of where you go for two of the low lvl errand quests. Seems to be a bit much for a lvl 3 going for pile of lumber only to be death attacked by two of them (happend to me) and to be honest how many people are going to be willing to form a group to guard one person who wants to pick up said wooden logs? Also they seem to be able to cast hold person as well
Haha, yes, gotta love 'em, I never ever managed to detect them even with madly pushed detect skills, but I believe that is because they're actually using invisibility on top of their stealth abilities, since they carry a lifetime supply of potions. Buut, those times my group/s got jumped by those we managed, soo..
BAM!
(Bring a meatshield..)
A goblin assassin killed Jack Black in one hit when we were exploring on the first night in the new module. While funny at the time, I'd agree that these spawns should be removed in any areas near the ziggurat. Its no fun to be gathering firewood, to use an earlier example, and then be one-shotted by something you had no chance of seeing.
QuoteI love goblin assassins and actively hunt them when I'm bored.
What does this have to do with the subject? Not everyone is playing a high-level dwarven fighter/rogue, nor should they have to to survive in the areas near the ziggurat.
We've had Deep Lizards and Hook Horrors spawn a mere two areas away from Nurtle's Cave for over three years; newbies used to go the wrong way then, too, on occasion. How is this different?
Myself and another PC had come across a goblin assassin just last night. While my PC had seen it, the other PC I was with did not. My listen and spot are both 6 and my search is 8. Not particularly high, I think, and I managed to see the goblin near instantly.
I personally see nothing wrong with them spawning even remotely close to areas outside the ziggurat since there is wide array of other creatures that will easily kill you in one/two hits. That same log gathering quest has been interrupted by greater werewolves more times then I wish to recall. I have scooped up the remains of multiple PCs along the sloped road from equally scary stuff, as well.
Ultimately, I like to think the wilderness is something that should not be approached lightly. While it may be easy to associate these areas outside the ziggurat as being remotely safe, I appreciate the subtle reminder of untimely death that they are not.
Quote from: AScottBay;91796We've had Deep Lizards and Hook Horrors spawn a mere two areas away from Nurtle's Cave for over three years; newbies used to go the wrong way then, too, on occasion. How is this different?
Because it's hard to miss a deep lizard or a clutch of hook horrors! At least with them you have a chance to run. The goblin assassin just pops up out of nowhere and then you die, the end.
If the deep lizards had invisibility and death gaze, then there would be a comparison. Those goblin assassins are like little bodaks with stealth! Usually anything that can kill PCs that easily is found pretty deep within a quest, or in an area where you know ahead of time that you could die horribly by getting anywhere close.
Personally, I think the panthers and jungle cats make the low areas treacherous enough. They already have good stealth and sneak attack damage. Giving them a death attack would be overkill, literally. It makes the difference between something difficult but fun and something that is just frustrating.
My Solution:
Either take away the assassins' death attacks, or move them farther away. This is not an enemy that should be faced that close to places high-levels frequently patrol.
Think of it this way: nearer the Ziggurat there is a higher concentration of people, quite a few very well-armed. They are quite often found walking outside the Ziggurat to some far-off adventure. The Ziggurat is a point in a large area where all adventurers radiate from.... until they reset their spawn point to someplace cooler, which I haven't found yet. Blech. Anyways... what with high-level adventurers and well-armed killers of all sorts frequently passing through these areas that are so close to the Ziggurat, wouldn't one think that monsters would either get picked off or simply learn not to get that close? Also, it's just mean-spirited to have something with instant death cababilities in places level two rangers walk.
My two cents!
If i get the message correctly, this is not about complaining about the difficulty range of the spawn, it's about the 'no-fun' of the combination of both not detecting the threat and of the instant kill. If that's the case, i tend to agree.
Dying every now and then is part of the fun. Getting pawned without a chance of survival sucks. Even running and getting pawned by AoO is fun because you actually think you might just make it. If this gob assassin just pops up and you're dead, that's a bit rough.
That being said, i've pcs travelling a lot, and they never got troubled by those spawns.
The thought of traveling across the island should be a sobering one. It should involve a great deal of risk assessment, particularly if you are foolhardy enough to travel alone. Nature oriented characters should know these risks better than anyone.
A character with maxed spot and listen checks shouldn't be able to detect -everything- around them. How boring would that be?
Goblin assassins are dangerous but are not bodaks with stealth. If you travel alone you run the risk of running into a compromising situation.
If anything, more predators should have start out in stealth mode. Poisonous snakes, plant creatures, and spiders should be stealthed.
Traveling the Underdark became routine when players learned what spawned where, whether they could fight it or had to turn back, and what sort of stealth/detect scores would keep them safe. Please DMs, do your best to remove this player knowledge and sense of security by continuing to keep things unpredictable.
Quote from: Winston Martin;91809If anything, more predators should have start out in stealth mode. Poisonous snakes, plant creatures, and spiders should be stealthed.
Seconded.
Yes, I think it should bring more of a "travel in groups" message instead of a "too hard, suggestion time!" message. Just travel in groups and you'll have more chance of surviving.
As for that, I have only like 5 listen if even that, and I always somehow find the assasins. Don't know how it is, but maybe you were just darn unlucky, or just the other way around with me.
Nonetheless, like said, it's a fact that there can be mobs hiding there. Don't try to take on travelling alone if you can't hide as well. I am not either, because I know for sure it's getting me kicked ass.
Scotty used the hook horror analogy and I feel I should point out that yes if you went the wrong way you ran into them but you weren't going to run into them walking into town hall to deliver a pie to herald Jaffar which is what the case is at the moment. They spawn right next to two of the delivery quests one a low lvl one the other low to mid.
My input: Stop whining. I've seen a great deal of it lately. Travel in groups and you should be fine. In addition, the Sloped Road is pretty much the prelude to the wilds and should be considered highly dangerous. As for the lumber area, deal with it. There are a number of lowbie quests where you do not have to go passed the main gates or you barely do but in safety (the mill). The island is dangerous, I would hate to see these creatures mystically start disappearing from their "normal" ambush points because people can't take a challenge(that truly make sense as they are close enough to the city to get people but far enough to avoid mass mobs). If you are truly worried about assassins, invest in mass amounts of ESP potions and down them whenever you are in those areas.
There are always IG methods of securing an area as well.
Certainly Ill have my next gold lvl 3 char begin buying Esp potions that he clearly has plenty of gold to afford. Also as for getting a group tried it Most players don't want to walk around risking there necks while one person picks up a pile of wooden logs.
Yes, they can kill you. Yes, they make the areas more dangerous.
So what?
They're easily dealt with, either by bringing along a friend or two (which is certainly not going to be that hard even at level two or three! Get a small band of wannabe lumberjacks if you want to avoid the potential ninja goblins), or just by having a Fortitude save. I mean, hell, they're really not that lethal!
And, as said. If you don't want to risk your neck to trainee ninjas, don't go there. No one's forcing you to go there, and the conversation that tips you off to the fed-ex in the first place implies that there's dangerous things around.
Better forget about the woodpile for now, then.. I doubt anyone's life depends on it since I got by without ever doing it once yet (and I can't even do it anymore).
I welcome the circumstances as they are that you can't push to level 4 with menial fetch and get quests in the matter of 2 or 3 resets.. People are so much more ready to par-tay, even at lower levels.
Most still seem to do it somehow now without even leaving the starting place.
Pity about exploring alone though. I should try the invis+stealth approach.
Quote from: Letsplayforfun;91808If i get the message correctly, this is not about complaining about the difficulty range of the spawn, it's about the 'no-fun' of the combination of both not detecting the threat and of the instant kill.
This is exactly what I'm aiming at.
Quote from: ShiftingAllegiances;91828My input: Stop whining.
Seriously, just stop all the bitching, folks. It's almost as if some of you people think there's some designated place where the DMs solicit feedback from the playerbase!
;)
I retract my previous comment about this. Upon further consideration, I came to the following conclusions.
First, the Zig until the last few weeks has been unoccupied by life other than goblins and undead. Chances are that most creatures/predators/etc would likely not realized it is inhabited until they show up and suddenly realized that there are dozens of people now there. Thus, likely stronger monsters would wander closer.
Secondly, IMO, having this island be survivalistic and dangerous is a good thing. Sanctuary, despite the fact that we all loved it, had grown to be a safe-haven of sorts. Little fear of wandering around outside of the city. And with so many people being dragged from all parts of the planet, most of whom are not jungle walkers, its doubtful they would be able to spot a snake, or bat, or other small, potentially deadly creature stalking them. Cats are different because of size and may be easier to spot than a snake. Spiders (at least some) should drop from the trees in the webbed wood.
Perhaps, the assassins should be left alone but other changes be made.
I ran into a similar situation in the foothills exploring alone with Level 3 PC. It was very stupid and I deserved what happened. I had lousy detect and hide skills and got ambushed by a leopard. Before I could even react, I was on the ground with -7 HP. Fortunately, he stopped attacking once I was down, I stabilized, and slowly got back to positive HP. And he didn't continue his attack when I got back up, so I was able to swallow a bunch of healing and then finish him off.
But, what frustrated me after such a miracle escape, was the fact that I only got 1 XP for killing him, plus another 5 XP when I sold the hide. I understand the philosophy of low XP for spawns to encourage cooperation between PCs, and I was aware of that before I even rolled my first PC, but it was certainly a life-altering event for my PC, and I think it would be fairer to reflect that in XP gained. I'm not talking a lot, but maybe like 50-100 XP per spawn up until Level 3, and then drop it to minimum once at Level 4.
Anyway, to get back on thread, I think the powerful spawns near the Zig are fine the way they are. This a dangerous untamed place, and you can still die even if you aren't stupid and follow all the precautions. Heck, I had a Level 2 PC just hanging out alone at night on top of the Zig, when a riser intruder came after me. If I hadn't been able to run faster than him, and scream for some timely assistance from a higher level PC who just happened to be nearby, I would have been one dead little gnome :).
So, keep the spawns like they are, just give a bit more XP to low-level PCs for them. I mean, don't we all learn more from our stupid mistakes than from
doing everything right? :)
If you don't die enough something is wrong with the situation.
Quote from: Nihm;91795A goblin assassin killed Jack Black in one hit when we were exploring on the first night in the new module. While funny at the time, I'd agree that these spawns should be removed in any areas near the ziggurat. Its no fun to be gathering firewood, to use an earlier example, and then be one-shotted by something you had no chance of seeing.
What does this have to do with the subject? Not everyone is playing a high-level dwarven fighter/rogue, nor should they have to to survive in the areas near the ziggurat.
Not convinced.