A simple question:
Why is it that a character with low lore, low spellcraft, and usually low intelligence is assumed to know all the nuances of all potion effects?
I ask because it occurs to me that not every club-wielding knucklehead who comes through the portal ought to be able to pass one of Professor Snape's potions examinations. In fact, a not insignificant number of them would likely have trouble even reading the label on the bottle. Remind me again how an illiterate character can amass such carefully organized potion inventories?
When I see people talking about the gulf between players with near-perfect mastery of the NWN engine and those who are still figuring it out, I can't help but wonder if it's not a form of metagaming to carry such knowledge from one character to the next, over and over again. We require all players to accurately represent their character's stats in their role-play. So where are the in-character actions that account for and justify each and every barbarian (most of whom are illiterate, mind you) knowing exactly what a bottle of blur does and exactly when to use it?
It seems to me that if the player of a low-intelligence thug was accurately portraying the weaknesses and limitations described on their character sheet, they would need to be told what a particular potion does, and not all of them would be so quick to drink a strange liquid purported to have magical effects solely on the word of a stranger.
As it is, 100% of all low-intelligence thugs on the server have an encyclopedic knowledge of all potions and all spell effects, including drinks that are unique to this setting.
I don't want to harsh anybody's buzz, but after all the times I've heard the DMs express a desire to see PCs play their weaknesses, and after all the times I've been told to invest points in a particular skill if I want to portray a character as having acquaintance with that skill, this seems like a gross oversight.
It doesn't seem unreasonable to expect PCs who want to play characters with that kind of knowledge to invest five points in spellcraft, lore, alchemy, or some other relevant skill.
It would be assumed to me that most potion merchants would spend the time advertising exactly what a potion does, or explaining it to the novice adventuring populace.
This would lead to a lot of boring roleplay and long-winded advertisements though.
From their past thuggings and their life before the ziggurat anyone who uses potions or supplies would just know from experience. Like hey this guy sells them lower then you, you are ripping me off. I don't see why that should be discouraged because it creates the PC potion market and conflicting merchants.
Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;182284This would lead to a lot of boring roleplay and long-winded advertisements though.
If the role-play in such an interaction is boring, I would think the fault lies with the players.
Well, the problem I see is this just looks impossible to enforce.
Also, I like to think of this more in terms of athletes. For instance, your typical athlete may not be the smartest guy, and he's certainly not an expert on anatomy and the like. However they do know how to train, and about nutrition and the like. They learn these things to aid them in their chosen profession, and it's independent of their intelligence.
I look at potions and the like in this setting as tools of the trade. Therefore a competent warrior would see them as just as valuable as their weapon and their armor. Hence someone who's good at what they do would certainly know how to use these things, and what good it would do them.
They may not know the why of things, or even care. But they do know that if they drink that potion of speed they move much faster, attack more, and are more slippery for their foe to touch. They don't need ranks in Spellcraft to figure that out.
Quote from: Relinquish;182285From their past thuggings and their life before the ziggurat anyone who uses potions or supplies would just know from experience. Like hey this guy sells them lower then you, you are ripping me off. I don't see why that should be discouraged because it creates the PC potion market and conflicting merchants.
That makes perfect sense when you're talking about the basics like strength. "This will make you stronger." It requires almost no explanation.
What I'm really aiming at here are characters who know that Bull's + Aid + Bless + whatever = a high enough AB to beat so-and-so's DR. To me, that kind of expert knowledge of potions and their combinations ought to be somewhat specialized, and there is no harm in expecting a player to reflect that knowledge with an investment in skill points.
EDIT:
Quote from: Capricious;182287Well, the problem I see is this just looks impossible to enforce.
It's simple. If a question arises, ask the player how their character knows how to do what they did. If they have a satisfactory answer, wonderful. It is no different than enforcing any other form of IC behavior.
I say people should have points in lore to do know how to properly wield weapons and put on armor. Also rogues should need Lore to know what traps do....I can go on and on about how every class needs lore.
Also the commoner needs points in lore to tie his shoes in my OP.
I think it's perfectly reasonable that a person who has adventured his entire life knows what most potions do. It's not like we're talking about omg random rare potions of polymorph or tensers transformation. I don't think there is any way to enforce what is suggested anyway.
I have no idea how this would be desirable or even enforceable. Knowledge of mechanics is completely OOC.
Quote from: core;182292I have no idea how this would be desirable or even enforceable. Knowledge of mechanics is completely OOC.
Then why is OOC knowledge forbidden for everything but potions?
How did that low wisdom character make all the right life choices in training (feats) to be a super-star combatant?
How did it happen that randomly this person was born with the most optimal arrangement of physical and mental statistics possible with a point buy system!?
Or a better question...Why not just learn the system instead of trying to force people who have down to your level of play?
Trying to enforce/implement this would just be a headache, and unecessary at that. Any excuse could be made for the gulping of particular potions, largely due to excess. Who -wouldn't- throw back everything that they knew to help them "strike truer" against a tough opponent? Why would they forget all the times before that they drank that potion and it made certain things easier (accuracy, damage, ect, ect). It's something that comes with being an adventurer, which is why you don't see anything like this in core D&D either.
Quote from: Groucho the Marxist;182296Who -wouldn't- throw back everything that they knew to help them "strike truer" against a tough opponent? Why would they forget all the times before that they drank that potion and it made certain things easier (accuracy, damage, ect, ect).
What is so difficult about taking 5 points of spellcraft?
I see what you're going for Playa, but first, it's unenforcable, second, as Capricious said, it would be expected them to of picked a few things up. So common things like blur, PfE, Cures, I think everyone would know. That's part, I think, of why pots should need to be ID'd when located in say, a Goblin larder. But otherwise, it's too much trouble for it's worth.
But frankly, there's some things that, saddly, are entirely based on player, not character, skill. Builds is one example (though admitidly, I tend to play characters with intellegence, so I can't say much).
Quote from: Relinquish;182290I think it's perfectly reasonable that a person who has adventured his entire life knows what most potions do. It's not like we're talking about omg random rare potions of polymorph or tensers transformation.
Yep. Although i'd say when the barbarian says "sell me 3 potions of displacement" it seems rather odd.
I think my 10 intel fighter is going to take conc and discipline before spellcraft seeing how he's a fighter and not some mage. You can't dictate what skills people have to take. Now I insist you take listen so you can emote hearing around corners and being able to hear other people talk to you and spot to see them.
How about we consider a different track.
I think that it would make more sense for "fake" potions to be about. Bulls Strength that weakens you as poison instead, or lasts but a few rounds. Fake brewers could sell some cheap ripoffs until they get caught and killed of course.
Some drops are cheap or fake and only someone with Spellcraft points could tell if a potion is real or not.
[shrugs] I have never been bothered too much by the potion thing, but then again, I am not one to know how or when to drink them. But this would give some benefits of having a friend with Spellcraft points.
Quote from: Junketeer;182308How about we consider a different track.
I think that it would make more sense for "fake" potions to be about. Bulls Strength that weakens you as poison instead, or lasts but a few rounds. Fake brewers could sell some cheap ripoffs until they get caught and killed of course.
Some drops are cheap or fake and only someone with Spellcraft points could tell if a potion is real or not.
[shrugs] I have never been bothered too much by the potion thing, but then again, I am not one to know how or when to drink them. But this would give some benefits of having a friend with Spellcraft points.
This.
Indeed THAT. It is an awsome suggestion.
Do THAT.
Cool idea on paper, everyone will rage when they spend 1500 gold on potions that last 1 round or poison you.
Quote from: Relinquish;182313Cool idea on paper, everyone will rage when they spend 1500 gold on potions that last 1 round or poison you.
Well, you technically can poison potions and drink and food.
I agree complicated potions shouldn't be used perfectly by very low INT characters. However, there are actually very few low INT characters around - speaking as someone who actually knows what stats people have. 14 INT is more common than 10 int, and 10 int is a lot more common than 8 int.
I am not at all interested in encouraging players to take Spellcraft just to use potions correctly, there are already enough benefits to do so.
The thing is, most potions aren't very complex. But yes it is good when PCs who should struggle to know which ones to use actually do struggle, and also when PCs ask more knowledgeable characters about what to do and use...
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1276/ints.jpg) (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/ints.jpg/)
Great... Now I don't feel unique with my 14 int fighter.
Ahem... But anyway, a better way to go about this is to have certain complex trinkets that have a mechanical requirement of a certain amount of lore, spellcraft, or int (preferably Lore, as that's what's used to identify items and how to use them), like those 'Curious Contraptions,' put a requirement of a 10 int, or 5 lore, or 5 spellcraft to use them. But requiring this to even be able to drink a potion seems silly. I think, however, that my suggestion of requiring it for certain other things might be a bit more realistic, balanced and interesting.
Oh, and that poison potion thing, awesome, yes please!
Only problem I see with the poisoned potion/fake ones is that they may not stack with normal ones, and if they do, they might be de-poisoned/faked or make all of them poison/fake... a smart-eyed player may notice it
On the original suggestion:
10 Int is average. That means it's probably the average of players on EFU:A, too. Most of us have no "skill points" in NWN mechanics, considering that basic proficiency requires no ranks whereas even one point represents out-of-the-ordinary skill.
So I think it's safe to assume that the normal people whose very life depends on the smart use of potions, daily, would know just as well as us normal people who just play a game every now and then. All the information we have about the effects of potions is just as readily available IC, I'm sure. And more importantly, we're playing an action game as much as we're telling stories, so you shouldn't pretend everything must be IC. It's just not what NWN is about.
Due to the stacking problem mentioned above, I guess the fake potion suggestion is somewhat limited in its usefulness. But then, there are a lot of apparently identical potions that don't stack, for some reason. It might work for the rare, higher-end potions.
I think the potion uses are pretty straightforward and don't think it's out of line most adventurers are well versed in them, save the more exotic ones, which are already more or less unknown. Naturally if a person wants to RP not knowing about potions it's on that person.
I love how ES busted that graph out.
(We are -professionals-)
I'm gonna hijack this thread now to ask for more graph options on EFUSS :D
Back on topic, one thing that did make one of my brewers a good amount of money was actually recommending potion combinations. "Ah sir, I see you want haste potions. Why not buy a couple of these handy displacements too, combined with haste they make you virtually untouchable". Also, when you're an adventurer who has Bull's Strength, Endurance and PFE cast on you every hour or less, some of the knowledge of what it does tends to rub off on you. Actually before my brewer retired, he planned to sell a gigantic consignment of poisoned potions to a lot of PCs he didn't like as a sort of "farewell fuck you" :P.
Oh the subject of consumables in general though, I agree there are far too many "idiot weapons" about that anyone can use. Play an 8 int barb and you can still have offensive spell items you can use by the bucketload. Poisoned pots would be easy to implement in an interesting way like this, perhaps:
Potion of Power
The clear liquid is marked "Potion of Power".
Unique power single use
In the same chest you find these, there is a note with a scripted lore check (to break a cipher) saying "Okay Bob, sell these dumb pirates that contaminated booze as magical potions, and we'll get away while they are all busy throwing up". On the other hand, of course, genuine "potions of power" drop in other parts of the quest.
Just making it so that complex potions are "Unidentified" should address this concern - this already is present in some cases, though not many.
ES rocks.
I was under the impression that if something was not unidentified, then it was common knowledge.
I thought we had gone through this already on IRC, and thus I braved my logs to show you this:
Quote[22:22] <@Talir> INT: What is this potion and what does it do? WIS: Why should I drink this now?
[22:22] Dex check to see if you spill it.
[22:22] Constitution to see if you can hold it in.
[22:22] <@Talir> Charisma to inspire others to do the same.
[22:23] Strength to open the vial.
[22:23] Dexterity to not drop it
[22:23] Charisma to drink it with table manners imo.
[22:24] Con check to keep from falling to your knees and retching after the 20th potion in the last 10 minutes.
Of course, I edited and left huge chunks of text out, but that was the conclusion.
Having low INT is usually a poor choice for an efu 'build' in most cases. This is because skill point allocation is vital in a low level environment. Similiarly wisdom lower than ten is a poor choice due to the numerous ways in which normally low will classes can have thier save boosted.
The only true 'dump stat' in EFU is CHA and this is remedied for a few classes already.
The thing I find most interesting is that the OP's suggestion would actually empower the current strongest and probably eternally strongest EFU melee build. The fighter/cleric. With only one ab lost three to four levels of cleric maxing spellcraft carves a monstrous fighter with every save in the teens against spells (provided feat allocation is done well) and the ability to use divine wands with no UMD. Combined with good hp and this 'potion lore' to use any potion
Quote from: TheImpossibleDream;182901The thing I find most interesting is that the OP's suggestion would actually empower the current strongest and probably eternally strongest EFU melee build. The fighter/cleric.
Huh. I had not thought of that. Thanks for the comment.
Off topic, sorry (build discussion, too... so sorry again)... But fighter/cleric? The strongest? I never thought of that, but it certainly does have advantages. Spot/listen would be low, though higher wisdom makes even cross-class useful, if you can afford spending the skill points, which are low as both classes receive a base 2 per level (14 int human could work, but you'd need to ditch charisma for the build to be remotely useless, and with all the new turning perks, that's a major hit, in addition to the RP repercussions to having a low charisma). Of course, I prefer specialization when it comes to builds on this server, that being specialization in divine magic, arcane magic, fighting, or scouting, it keeps my job clear, it makes it so that when I do well on my job I get rewarded by the group at the end of the quest ("Oh, good job disabling all those traps so we could charge them, take an equal share of the loot."), but if I head out claiming multiple skills, none of which I specialize in, I will not live up to expectations ("Nice job on those traps, but our wizard nearly died on one, and I thought you said you could handle yourself in a fight... Why did I have to use an entire wand of moderate healing keeping you up? To make up for that, I'll be taking part of your share.") as I will be busy doing too many things. Think of an adventuring group as an assembly line, each part of the line has one job, not two or three.
This is about potions not builds. STICK TO THE TOPIC.
Naga brings a valid point. This would encourage powergaming.
This is about potions not telling others what not to do. STICK TO THE TOPIC. *seems unaware of any hypocrisy in his reply*
Ahem... But yeah, okay. I am entirely against this because it is not fun. It's already not fun not being able to acquire these potions that everyone else has in abundance, but if I need to go and ruin my already generally inferior builds just to get the ability to use potions.