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As topic;

Discuss.

I'd rather see an alternate solution myself, but agree with the post in general I think. If it's possible to prevent the SPAM KD that might be better, otherwise I'd like to see the damage removed.

Or possibly make it 50% damage or something..

Maybe something where it isn't a sure thing against specific classes.

I suspect this is impossible.

If it could be done to that and disarm(Except unarmed disarm), then great.  That'd bring it a bit more in line with what its intended to do.

A global Discipline bonus might be a way to make Knockdown less effective, but unfortunately that would also weaken Disarm and Called Shot.

Is Knockdown really that powerful? -4 is a pretty hefty negative. I haven't seen this feat being over-used or abused particularly.
 
Sure, its useful for lvl 9 or 10 max AB PC but then again, almost any lvl 9 or 10 will be powerful given the right circumstances.

6 seconds timer?

Knockdown in itself is quite dangerous if you are being victim of that spam. Be it monsters or PC's. I'd favor this if it is possible.

You still need quite high discipline to be absolutely immune to KD if someone has high ab. Compare those with high ac that can avoid it, even if they would be weak or have lower strength or endurance.

Then think those 0 ac barbarians or what not with huge strength and possibly endurance, and then someone spams KD on them. It's just given that they can't resist it all the time, and it still hits about every time if you got good ab and they happen to have low armor class.

Hmmm, i know what you mean Paha...
 
I agree its *quite* dangerous, but not sure its over the top. Seems like a lot of effort to weaken something that is only truelly good with very high AB/levels. Other classes at the same levels will also have very nasty abilites/spells.

.....or as an alternative, make Discipline potions and charge items slightly more common?

KD is way overpowered.

If it was scriptable, no damage would get my vote.

Maybe possible to make it a full round action?

I suggested this way back when i played Dalman. I so agree to this feat being changed. No damage, half damage, whatever, but yeah - if it's possible - i'm all for it.

I'm not very supportative to this, after playing a char with IKD. In a duel against a warrior who was probably 2 levels lower than me, I succeeded once to knock him down. Every other time he resisted it. (And as far as I've noticed, this is resisted quite often by a trained warrior (or large monsters) because of their high discipline and loot that raises your discipline. I often found myself not spamming it in duels because I wanted to hit on each hit rather than get them -maybe- once down.

Disarm can be quite useful in PvP either way, you can just grab the weapon and it pretty much ends the battle right there.

But I do agree that this is strong and fairly easy way to keep wizards and other weak discipline classes down but isn't Hold Person or some other disable spell equally useful against a low will warrior? Not to mention that we have both discipline potions and PfA potions to somewhat counter both.

I think that removing the damage from them makes them a lot more useless, maybe a bit too much.

Knockdown is brute force and powerful trauma meant to bring a person down. I say the damage okay, and knockdown should remain as is, no change.

Its not supposed to be a knockdown, in D&D its called 'Trip'

Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

Tripping with a Weapon

Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

I was always under the impression that kd was hardcoded, which is the reason that there are simply no servers that have changed it.

Quote from: BrittanyPanthas;182594Its not supposed to be a knockdown, in D&D its called 'Trip'

Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.

Tripping with a Weapon

Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

Well, yes. But in PnP, you get 50 different posibilites of what to do with your opponent when you trip him. Grapple, smash his head against the ground till the brain plops out from the ears, kick him in the balls, chop off his feet so he can't run, etc.

In NwN, you can just smash the shit out of him. And then, if you don't have like disabling/holding consumables (HP, tangle bags, sonic burst etc), if KD does no damage, then in 1vs1 it becomes absolutely useless and redundant?

I have a love-hate relationship with this skill.  It's great to lock down stuff you have real difficulty hurting (see the 3-4 KDers spamming on one of the Vrocks near the end of the demonic invasion), but it's also a Win Button against even a prepared no Disc class. Potions of Disc have been a good way to make it less crazy, but they are not common enough to spam preemptively. I think that either a modification of a an arcane defensive spell (Shield?) to grant KD immunity or a large Disc boost, more Discipline items for caster classes and so on would be best.

KD is nasty because its uses are unlimited unlike all other stuns (spells, Stunning Fist, Tanglebags), so can be chained until you hit, then with no penalty (+4 to hit a KDed target) when you get them. Even if they resist, you still damage them, and you can use it on every attack unlike wandspam or stun spells. Hold Person on the other hand, if they're Claritied or wearing a Mind of the Ooze, you wasted a resource. Stunning Fist, you can use fort save gear against and there's some good gear for that. Against spells and tanglebags, any class can get saves or immunity by using gear and buffs, but discipline is far harder to get. Yes, KD costs a feat, but so does a Spell Focus or Extra Stunning, etc.

if the feat's hardcoded, the way to balance is to throw in Discipline points and immunities to resist it some other way. It should be a nasty trick vs unprepared enemies, but not against somoen expecting a fight.

QuoteI think that either a modification of a an arcane defensive spell (Shield?) to grant KD immunity or a large Disc boost, more Discipline items for caster classes and so on would be best

This sounds good by way of compromise. Shield is maybe powerful enough already? Maybe Clarvoyance/Clairaudience could boost your Discipline by 20 or so, as you see the trip or charge coming? Wouldn't last very long but would give you a decent chance of resisting a knockdown in an emergency, without giving complete immunity.

My thought was that in a similar way to how you can have PFX up to pre-empt mindspell stuns, you could have an anti-KD spell of a similar cost. I figured Shield would be good as it is fairly cheap for arcane classes and rogues (the main losers to KD) and expensive for others who have Disc, although then there's the fighter/UMDer problem... A partial solution would be to make Pots of Disciplne as dirt common as PfG and PfE, but that still ends up being a supply counter not a preparation one. I have a dislike of handy rare(ish) potions because it widens the gap between people who know the optimal ways to get them and those who don't.

A wizard walking round with anything short of Imp Invis is still an easy KD target no matter what he has up. There's no way to avoid having to start a fight rather than respond. My two fastest losses on mages to muggings were both times against PCs with non-obvious defense spells up (wards, statbuffs, insulation, MA, ext Shield) against characters with KD.

A thing about KD is the DC is based on the attack roll against Discipline. Unlike for spells, where saves and immunities (temporary or permanent) are easier to get hold of than DC boosts, attack bonus boosts are particularly easy to acquire. On the other hand Discipline bonuses tend to only come on gear that is designed for classes that already have the skill.

I'm not opposed to making it easier to get discipline (minor bonuses from spells, more +disc items, more of the potions that give +discipline), but I definitely think KD as a powerful ability for melee-based classes is important.

KD Spamming in PvP is bad etiquette. If PCs are doing it against other PCs, then thats cheap if you ask me.

The way to balance it, I'd say, is to do what another server did, and after every time you're KD'd, you get a  +5 to discipline for a few rounds, this bonus would stack, so if you're KD'd twice, you suddenly get a +10, even for a wizard this grants a decent chance of resisting a third KD. Alternatively, after succeeding on a KD, apply a -4 AB to the KD'er for 1 round, making it so that while the other person can't fight back, the KD'er just pulled off a complicated maneuver and is having difficulty recovering from it (penalty negated with IKD).

Also, more potions of discipline would be nice.

QuoteKD Spamming in PvP is bad etiquette. If PCs are doing it against other PCs, then thats cheap if you ask me.

Respectfully, that is not correct. Use of the Knockdown feat is, at present, completely unrestricted and it is in no way poor form or bad etiquette to use this feat. There -are- limitations and counters to this feat that do exist, although certainly in situations with highly buffed up PCs with massive AB it can be quite devastating. But of course so are any number of things.

QuoteThe way to balance it, I'd say, is to do what another server did, and after every time you're KD'd, you get a +5 to discipline for a few rounds, this bonus would stack, so if you're KD'd twice, you suddenly get a +10, even for a wizard this grants a decent chance of resisting a third KD.

That might be nice.

Quote from: Howland;182666Respectfully, that is not correct. Use of the Knockdown feat is, at present, completely unrestricted and it is in no way poor form or bad etiquette to use this feat. There -are- limitations and counters to this feat that do exist, although certainly in situations with highly buffed up PCs with massive AB it can be quite devastating. But of course so are any number of things.

Oh, ofcourse its not against the rules, I just personally think its cheap to have every attack be a form of KD. Not that I'm speaking on behalf of anyone else.

I don't think knockdown is overpowered, but... I don't think it should be able to be spammed.
 
If anything, I simply say make it a full-round action. Because honestly, why would you knockdown someone who is... knocked down?

KD'ing someone who is already KD'd does nothing, they still get up one round after the first KD (unless they're an NPC trying to run, then KD'ing them simply doesn't work, they continue moving), it's where you KD someone at the start of each round (after they get up) that's KD spamming, unless I'm wrong about this... I never did use KD that much. Anyway...

Quote from: Decimate_The_Weak;182695I don't think knockdown is overpowered, but... I don't think it should be able to be spammed

There's no reason for it not to be possible to spam. "Hey, good job knocking down this demon, keep at it!" "I can't, there is now an invisible barrier up around his legs, preventing me from tripping him again regardless of how much I try or what methods I use!"

Yeah... Doesn't make much sense, does it? Keep in mind this is an RP server, everyone, not a PvP server. Eliminating or reducing the strengths of certain classes because they are perceived as 'overpowered' when there are ways of countering them easily is something I would rather not see on this server, especially when there is no IC reason for such a thing, like cool-down timers on knockdown.

With all the discipline buffing items on this server, there's no reason that even a wizard couldn't get 10+ discipline fairly soon (fairly easily, too, if one were to put ranks in it), which is enough to grant a good chance of resisting knockdown.

Would it be possible to change the defense against Knockdown from Discipline + d20 to Discipline + Concentration + d20?

If so, that might solve a lot of problems, at least for spellcasters.

Rogues, well, you're on your own.  Unless you want to also add Tumble into that mix.

I am completely against nerfing it to do no damage. Why should caster classes always have the upper hand against melée classes? As it is, this is one of the only effective ways a melée class can defeat a caster in PVP. High level wizards have a dozen ways to bring down a melée fighter. The fighter has knockdown, which he has to get within melée range to utilze, which the caster can easily avoid by haste/retreat and getting out of range.

Knockdown is not overpowering, and nerfing it would be unbalancing. Leave it as it is.

Quote from: AceOfSpadesX;182706As it is, this is one of the only effective ways a melée class can  defeat a caster in PVP... Why should caster classes always have the upper hand against melée classes?

...
On EfU, low AB casters have it hard in PVP, unless they specifically prepped for it or get the jump. There's the rest timer, the proliferation of save gear and defensive potions, Seeing pots and immunity items, and the low CL of offensive mage supplies. You notice it more if you go and play on a PW or campaign where supplies don't dominate as much and indeed spells give you the upper hand. If you want effective ways to beat up a wizard try Blindfight, Darkness or tanglebags, or just a clarity, blur, shield  and insulation chugfest.

@Nightshadow
Yes, you could crossclass Disc on a wizard. The thing is though that "useful to wizards" and "discipline boost" don't overlap much when it comes to items. Personally I'd like to see less Discipline items for melee classes and more for everyone else.

I'm really loving the diminishing returns idea. The use of this skill is great, but being locked down for long periods of time with no hope of resisting can be a real buzz kill.

I'd propose the diminished effect be different for KD and IKD, however. With KD granting +5 per knockdown, and IKD granting only +3 discipline to the target.

It would probably be more practical, from a technical standpoint, to affect the user of KD than the victim.

Quote from: DollarPhil;182735...
On EfU, low AB casters have it hard in PVP, unless they specifically prepped for it or get the jump. There's the rest timer, the proliferation of save gear and defensive potions, Seeing pots and immunity items, and the low CL of offensive mage supplies. You notice it more if you go and play on a PW or campaign where supplies don't dominate as much and indeed spells give you the upper hand. If you want effective ways to beat up a wizard try Blindfight, Darkness or tanglebags, or just a clarity, blur, shield  and insulation chugfest.

Well, what I meant is that in the case of melée combat, the full AB classes should have the advantage. The mage's strength lies in the diversity of options they have, and the many ways in which they can kill fighters before they get in melée range. Being prepared beforehand is an issue of chance. The full AB classes have the same chance of being prepared with the potions you mentioned, as the mage has of being prepared with his spells, perhaps even less because some of those potions aren't very common.

I think that mage's should have a distinct disadvantage facing off fighters or barbarians in melée, and knockdown is one of the key feats that assures this.

There's sort of a difference between key advantage and the ability to stand on top of someone and just whack them until their DR fades. Considering all it takes is an invisibility potion to get that close, I'm not convinced that it's necessary for a fighter to be able to keep a mage on their back to compete.

My mind's going straight to Disarm. You know how with the first version of Disarm, you suffer an attack of oppourtunity? How about it becomes the same with Knockdown?

Improved Knockdown would remove that attack of oppourtunity, but then it doesn't really have any benefit, except against larger creatures.

In RL you feel a pain the rum when you hit the ground. I think it should be 50%

I am against making any changes to this feat, and for the record, it gets used against me a lot more than I've used it against others.

It should stay as it is. A greataxe hit still hurts as hell, even if it is swinged from the side to knock you down!

It's bad enough that you can watch a halfling KD an orc right now with a dagger.  If he can somehow do such a pansy blow that it doesn't even damage the halforc yet still puts his ass on the ground, it's just going to be that much more lame.  The only way it should really happen to begin with is if said halfling managed to hamstring the orc or rupture some groin.

IMO, the only time KD should ever do 0 damage is from a non lethal unarmed attack.  Perhaps some sort of tumbling check could be applied to break the fall for 50% damage from other forms of attacks as well.

I am for leaving it as it is.
 
Is this really a problem amongst our player-base that in PvP we have those that spam knock-down?
 
It is a good opening move to start a fight... after that... meh.

KD spammers do exist. But as a DM has stated, its not against the rules.

More discipline potions, more items with discipline.

Is it possible to make Discipline a class skill for every class?

OR!

Can an EFUSS skill be added that boosts Discipline?

There's enough + discipline items out there, no more are needed, but more discipline potions would be nice, and I like the idea about the EFUSS discipline boost.

The problem imo isn't with the amount of discipline items for fighters (this isn't an informed viewpoint, just what I gather); having played numerous Fighters, there is a massive amount of stuff with +AB; but I think certain classes get ruined when KD comes into play, especially when one buffed party can surprise an unbuffed one.

I would be all for the diminishing returns idea, but personally only think KD is a problem in PvP; I would leave it as it is usually against NPCs personally.

Quote from: Nightshadow;182881I like the idea about the EFUSS discipline boost.

Me too.

Knockdown is nice for pvp. However it is hardly the be all and end all. Improved Disarm with a large weapon is quite a bit more powerful due to an ab GAIN of +4 on use against weapons smaller than meduim. Knockdown is percieved as powerful due to its ability to buy a round or two on initiation against a usually unprepared foe.

Now in a fight that is not so ridiculously one sided that knockdown would not be needed to win it, using knockdown wil reduce your chance to hit signicantly and landing one that hits is rare. Diminishing returns might be nice against npcs as would no damage on the knockdown itself. However if a character with low discipline and low ac or poor spell set finds himself within KD range of a semi competant warrior he isn't going to last more than two rounds anyway.

Pretty sure its been saidknockdown can't be made to do no damage before by members of the DM team though. Has a way been found?

I think this really only effects the low discipline classes. Maybe add an effect to some spells that strengthens discipline too? +5 for blur, 10 for stoneskin, 20 for greater stoneskin...

Something like that?

We aren't adding +discipline to spells. Seriously, WTF?

If you are a wizard, you run the risk of being KD spammed. End of story.

Don't take KD, it's all we got :(

I added Secondary Discipline as an EFUSS skill. I don't think modifying any spells is desirable.

+discipline items exist IG

Potions of discipline are a bit more common, and I'll look into making them an alchemy product too....

Brilliant, Howl. Alchemy could use more stuff available. I spent ages looking for and guessing recipes on a previous PC, but found about twice as much if not more for Herbalism.

I fail to see how this would balance the game. A change of nerf won't be for the better here. It is one of those things that give high AB characters an edge agaist people with lower AC; where people will lower AC are usually the biggest threat for a the classes that pick up KD. I don't see how it puts things out of balance.

Are you sure about that? Generally speaking the only people with low AC that a kd'er goes for are mages. The rest with low ac are useually high str two handers who will have discipline to resist a KD.

KD is often from my experiance on PVP servers, the way to go against high ax dexers, who you cant hit but chip away at you slowly. A KD on them often=death due to low health.

As usual the discussion segues quickly into arguments where specific cases (unprepared vs. prepared, caster vs. melee, melee vs. melee, etc) are blown up to represent the entirety of the situation, which they do not.

Hold Person ends a fight in a single round.

Disarm disables a melee class easily.

KD, used in chain or singularly, is devastating.

Taunting makes a tough-to-hit character a sure target.

Dispeling makes a nearly-unbeatable enemy into a fleeing coward.

PhK, Firebrand, Empowered Evocations turn single PCs or even entire groups into corpses over the course of a round.

All of these abilities, as well as the other 'imbalanced' stuff that exists in EfU have counters.

I am in favor of removing all damage from halfling characters as they are too powerful.

Quote from: Kiaring;182984Hold Person ends a fight in a single round.

No. You can hold a person with buffed AC and still not hit him, and since HPs are superior to what is initially intended in PnP, even spamming spells might not deal enough damage to finish a warrior or barbarian who'll gulp down CSW and not care much.

Quote from: Kiaring;182984Disarm disables a melee class easily.

But it can be countered by all melee classes, and other classes don't care so much.

Quote from: Kiaring;182984KD, used in chain or singularly, is devastating.

Yes, but certain classes can't counter it AT ALL, hence the OP.

Quote from: Kiaring;182984Taunting makes a tough-to-hit character a sure target.

Yet most classes can counter it via concentration.

Quote from: Kiaring;182984Dispeling makes a nearly-unbeatable enemy into a fleeing coward.

No. It'll send spell reliable builds away, but melee types will just buff up again using the hoard of potions they have, while a dispelled mage is screwed.

Quote from: Kiaring;182984PhK, Firebrand, Empowered Evocations turn single PCs or even entire groups into corpses over the course of a round.

I've used two PhK wands without killing anyone. Pfe+ two saves makes it near useless. Firebrand is countered by cheap insulations. Evocations too+they have a save for half damage.

The main issue with KD is that some classes just can't do anything against it, and when it's spammed, even the -4 penalty is taken away because the target is on the ground.

It's like giving a spell that both holds and deals regular damage, unlimited use, and that some classes just can't save against.

Quote from: Letsplayforfun;182994It's like giving a spell that both holds and deals regular damage, unlimited use, and that some classes just can't save against.

A nice summation.

KD is the only trick that doesn't (Didn't maybe, we'll see if we get a flood of Disc pots or not) have an "cheap enough to use on suspicion" preventative measure when you know an possible enemys might line one up on you.  Disarm? Who doesn't carry another couple of weapons, usually for +AB vs werewolves or Risers? Mindspells? PFX/Clarity/Mindblank/Wear a Mind of Slime.

Taunt, Disarm and Dispel are the hardest to deal with but they won't stop someone getting away unless they're very attached to their weapon. I wouldn't say dispel screws a mage in a fight. Depends on the situation. If one of my wizards gets dispelled in a fight, he'll use his own potions, wands and scrolls, because he's saving slots for mayhem-causing spells or buffs depending on what he was about to do, not more blur.

Empowered Evocations are scary as hell but nobody's generally running around with more than a couple of them.  And good luck using them in confined spaces or around non-hostiles unless it's Combust, which may still have that lame immunity cape to stop. All it takes is one of your buddies charging in or some innocent bystanders to make firing AOEs be more trouble than its worth.

As far as spells go, my vote goes to "hostile one guy and missile storm him" for approaching the level of gankasticness buffed Imp KDs can pull, since only wizards and sorcs (and Spells Domain Clerics) can really afford to spam Shield. That though only works against one enemy and it's rarely if ever useful generally, plus has to be prepared. KD's always an option.

Given the arguments above, i agree, reduce the damage, make it a full round action, or something.

Can KD be done so that in addition to knocking the target, it gives it inmunity to knockdown for one round as well?

The stacking Discipline boost seems the smoothest solution to me.

I concede, Lppf. Perhaps a different way of looking at it is that every single melee character no matter the build seems to have knockdown. This is not true of the other abilities I listed, for their respective classes/character profiles.



Still waiting on that halfling ban though.

I never took knockdown on any of my melee builds...

Can statistics be provided on how many characters have knockdown? I wouldnt mind seeing an overall percentage.

seeing as my suggestion went through i fully expect a designer credit on any future efu projects

Quote from: Craig210;183080Can statistics be provided on how many characters have knockdown? I wouldnt mind seeing an overall percentage.

No.

I also want a raise.

Quote from: FleetingHeart;183084No.

Simple requested because I dont think -every- melee character has knockdown. I don't.

I've often seen people make assumptions and not back them up with facts. So unless people can provide facts with their statements I wont take them in.

It isn't a problem and there is equipment out there to handle it. For mages afraid of being knocked down, invest in Discipline (Skill Focus Discipline) Cross Class Skill and buy equipment. You aren't lacking in skill points or feats.

Quote from: Craig210;183090Simple requested because I dont think -every- melee character has knockdown. I don't.

I've often seen people make assumptions and not back them up with facts. So unless people can provide facts with their statements I wont take them in.

...right.

I was just making the point that it's the feat I see the most - by far - in melee characters. If you don't use Knockdown, kudos to you I guess?

EDIT: I sounded perhaps a little too snide, I am sorry; what I meant is that KD seems to be by far the most common melee combat feat, which was in support of my concession to Lppf's argument that it may be overpowered.

Blind Fight is much better.

I've never thought this feat was overpowered, in fact, it's one of the few things a pure warrior has to keep a fleeing opponent from doing just that.

Whatever though, really, as it can't be modified!

I think the feat has its pros and cons. On one hand its good to stop people from fleeing. On another it pretty much screws up a lot of classes completely.

To me KD isn't about the feat being overpowered it's wether or not the player can keep it IC. In PvP, if you are only using it against PC's that you know are a certain class and that KD is an advantage then you are taking advantage of the sytem...
i.e.: If you, not your PC, knows you are facing a druid and you spam KD yet when you know you're facing a ranger you don't bother because he may have points to discipline then you're taking advantage of the system. How does your fighter, that thinks of all druids and rangers as tree huggers and doesn't know any of them by name know that one can be knocked on his ass and that the other can't? So if you actually use it against those classes that have a good chance of resisting (like the ranger) then you're RPing, if you only use it against PC's that it will be an advantage against then... Well... You're not RPing, you're taking advantage of the system.
 
Obviously if you see a guy in wizard robes your PC can pretty much guess he can be KD fairly easily and you should go for it before he blasts you with a fireball. If your PC sees a tank in full-plate with a shield dont bother. But if you cant tell the ranger from the druid try to keep player knowledge adn character knowledge seperated.
 
I think the feat is fine the way it is.

QuoteTo me KD isn't about the feat being overpowered it's wether or not the player can keep it IC.

O_O
So we're also expected to try and Fear paladins, Evards Halflings, and drop fireballs down the pants of rapier-finessing fighter/rogues just to "stay IC"? In a PVP, 99% of the time you are playing hard to win, and have no reason to be expected to gimp yourself tactically unless you're some minmaxer who's being exploited for his low INT/WIS. As for telling rangers from druids, i present a handy Spotter's Guide.

• Did he just cast Barkskin?
• Did he just turn into a Giant Bloody Overpowered Spider?
• Did he open the combat by trying to fill you full of maggots?

If you have answered "yes" to any of these questions, your opponent just MIGHT be a Druid. Or a Werespider, in which case, RUN. Note that all observations are IC as these are things you only ever see druids doing. All classes are hidden from OOC view, and it's perfectly possible to make bad guesses even with OOC knowledge. Rogues in fullplate, high CHA wizards you might assume are sorcs, and Clerics who disguise as melee mages are just some examples I've seen. In fact, just this week, Utucha was ICly mistaken for a Cleric of Waukeen by a guy trading with him.

Besides, anyone with a Int or Wis score greater than that of one of Buttercup's little green friends is going to rapidly realise when KD is resisted every time.

Actually good point, while trying to instigate you proved my point. If you see a PC fighter in plate armor and don't try KD and then see a disguised PC (you know as a wizard, but your PC wouldn't) in full-plate with a visored helm and you start spamming KD you took advantage of the fact you can see his name bubbled over his head and basically are cheating.
 
I never said if you can't justify it IC... It's when you run up to that elf in a chain shirt with a shield yelling "Savage!" and have no IC clue, yet somehow the KD gets tried when you OOC know it's a druid and doest for a ranger. A fighting style is one way or another. If you always go for KD's then do so regularly, if you wait until you asses the other person first then deside if it's worth trying then do that. Pick a fighting style for your PC and stick to it. Dont only use abilities based on OOC knowledge. (Yes, I do RP ("gimp") my PC's in this way.)
This is just my opinion, if ya'll wanna power-game instead of RP, your choice [shrug].
 
You want to spam KD on a giant spider, or a bark skinned druid. Or better yet a barked skinned giant spider... Go for it!

cool argument for removing damage or not.

On what LPFF said earlier. There are almost as many classes without concentration as discipline and KD is as easy to counter for all classes as taunt. Talking about not killing someone with a PHK wand seems like a joke as there are a number of better pvp wands for your 8k.

In addition KD is bugged in such a way that based on your initiative you often cannot re-kd someone before they get up for 3-6 seconds. So, no, the penalty is not negated by itself.

There are three methods for evading KD as a mage. Method 1 avoid mellee, keep see invis up and invest in detection (7 ranks is enough for those who do not cripple themselves for stealth.) Method 2 keep your ac buffed. It is very easy to walk about with 25+ ac over extended peroids. Imp invis or a displacement potion work wonders. Method 3 elemental shield, even with the best elemental protection potion a fighter will have to stop to heal if you use the action window correctly.

The action window is an important factor when being KD 'spammed' for one moment provided you mash the action enough you will cast a spell or drink a potion.

Above all if you die in three rounds to three KD's the reason you died was not KD. Easy to blame KD. But if your charactor cannot survive 18 seconds toe to toe you were goig to die regardless. Eliminate kd from your mind and consider your opponent is hasted. Meaning you will need to survive at least three rounds of damage while hasting and attempting to run.

Bottom line is that if you get into a kd spam situation and die it was either bad luck or stupidity. Its like if I complained that my rogue can't get high enough ac to make a dex build work as well as it can shifting the balance greatly in favor of strength based ac builds. The arguement just doesn't work. If we had a higher level range there might be some issues worth addressing.