I've noticed a fair few players who recently seem to be able to turn over very large amounts of gold for their PCs very quickly by powerquesting as opposed to trading or crafting, rapidly acquiring Patricianship/powerful wands in a week or so. One guy I was speaking to was planning a collection of L4 wands and claimed to rake in >3k a day, which i found surprising. Having an Cure Crit wand as the medium term goal for every ranger and Imp Invis for every guy with a bard level doesn't seem to be that great a thing. This isn't aimed at singling out players to say "U SHOULD SIT AND RP MOAR" but to ask whether the rest of you feel there's a growing amount of ready cash of late. I might be wrong, or it might be that the lowered general server level has lead to more spamming of lower level, good gold reward quests.
It's not a suggestion so much as a discussion thread, as I'm unsure if my experience is representative. It might be I just ran into someone who's very good at quest trains. I think though, it might be beneficial to tweak some of the quests to give out less gold but more lightweight valuables and consumables to encourage trading. Stuff that most PCs want, rather than gold which allows made to order consumables, especially for wand users. Recently I have noticed more of well, every sort of activity, even PC trading in the formerly barren docks, so I wouldn't say that's been harmed.
However, gold is very convenient. It's easily converted to just the supplies you want with just one PC interaction (talking to a crafter). On the other hand, everyone wants blurs and healing, but it's less easy to convert those into a Wand of Darkness, haste pots or custom Fullplate, and the trading needed to acquire gold from them acts to slow down consistent questing and keep areas lively. Possibly this whole thing is just a temporary effect from everyone making a fortune off the gem dealer before he got nerfed and it'll go away. Possibly it's just proof of how far determination will get you.
Opinions, please.
Being rather very good at the gaming the quest system, i must say, that 3k per day is an absolutely ridiculous myth, ser, and you were probably trolled. Your average quest pays 200 gp. And most in fact, pay less.
Or, the person you spoke with, spends 12+ hrs/day questing/selling loot from questing/brewing potions, and/or the person is a caster and has 2 melee PC minions to crush each quest for him.
IMO.
One dangerous thing about changing how much gold is out there is you don't want to gimp the people who maybe don't "grind" for it, or don't play as much, and are always on the low end of the scale. I personally don't feel as if everyone should feel the need to play a merchant or a crafter in order to just stay afloat goldwise.
The amount of coin around has pretty much stayed the same. But, yes, I do agree that there are some that always seem to have it.
They know the best ways to get it, they know which Quests to hit with exactly the right number of players to get max coin, they know what to sell and how to sell it and at one cost.
I have found that generally it's those that are "Masters" of the game that are capable of doing this. Personally I have NEVER had enough gold to become a Patrician. Thankfully I have never wanted to buy the Full Plate, because I would never afford it.
*shrugs* Don't worry to much about it. The only time is really 'sucks' is when you want to buy a item but are out bid by those same players. :P
I have no clue how some players rake in gold at all (save for from DM events). I've never had a PC that made enough coin to buy Patricianship (even if I wanted it, which I dont).
I haven't noticed that there is a lot of gold. I myself am relatively poor. However, it may be due to the fact that people are getting better at the game, and it costs less to survive a quest.
Working on the assumption there is a reset a day,
You can useually do the following, goblins, trogs, harpies, snakes, gnolls, TOM, orcs, Ooze.
Between waiting for them, you can go skinning and rack in 2-300 gold a trip.
Throw into that RP that pays gold.
Selling of items accumulated on quests.
And accumulating stacks of CSW on quests, selling them at 900, and buying wands with more charges at 6-800. In a single day its preatty easy to make money.
Edit: Regret contributing.
Craig has it rather succinctly. It is IMO easier than for a while to be able to pull off that sort relentless questing and acquisition, which can let you pull right ahead of most PCs.
There's a partial level cap at 8, but smashbotting your way around the server is a good way to pull in gold for supplies, which can count as much if not more than levels here. Thing is, I can't think of a way to suggest a similar sort of tail-off for being able to powerquest for gold without actively penalising higher levels that aren't in a paid faction or getting DM quests. I've known a couple of players reach level 10 just by surviving for ages rather than aiming for it, and then say "well... that's dull, can't do any quests, any exploring and RP will just wear down my stash.".
Thing is though I'm really just musing and talking crap here, because the server does seem active more than usual. However, we all know how finding an optimal way for supplies tends to lead to bandwagons who have all the stuff. (See "spamming lizards for cure crits back when fewer people knew the way")
Or be a merchant! Definately 3k gold a day. <_<
Never forget you have to live in the Police State you create! Not sure that is relating to the subject completely. But yes, perhaps one person can make that coin a day, but as you raised your brow, we all do, its not common. So, to stop one person we change everything? Im never a fan of nerfing as you know, i dont believe in changing the laws for everyone just cause there is a small percentage of [insert namecalling] running around.
One of the problems with it though is that those that know how to do it, get it with each and every PC they create. We all would do that as it's fairly simple to justify alot of OOC information to IC info. Just like other OOC knowledge that seems to carry over per PC. Those of us that don't know how to make the tons of gold, mix those herbs and potions, locate those hiden groves, etc., etc. never will. Because the only answer you get when you ask is FOIG. Kinda like a palm to the forehead; Hello, I wouldn't be asking if I could foig kinda thing.
I've probably spent weeks of real time IG trying to mix ingrediants in that damn herb pouch and only found one that works.
Quote from: Craig210;186476Working on the assumption there is a reset a day,
You can useually do the following, goblins, trogs, harpies, snakes, gnolls, TOM, orcs, Ooze.
Between waiting for them, you can go skinning and rack in 2-300 gold a trip.
Throw into that RP that pays gold.
Selling of items accumulated on quests.
And accumulating stacks of CSW on quests, selling them at 900, and buying wands with more charges at 6-800. In a single day its preatty easy to make money.
There are two things necesary for this to happen, first, you need a decent party to do so. The part needs to be thew right level, and it needs to be an optimal team of over 3 people usually. Also, none has to have taken the quests previously. This is not as easy to get, not for me at least, perhaps due to my schedule. Usually i can get a friend and a random PC to quest with me and do 1, 2 quests at most. If we are lucky, other PCs will join us and we'll have a small powerquest train of 3-5 quests, but then, that happens once every three months for me. Ocacionally i join a party headed to orcs I, very, very rarely i manage to get myself into a powertrain. This due to how hard it is to get a party.
Additinaly, a new player, or just a non-hardcore non-veteran player like me is unlikely to be able to do all this quests without a large consumable waste, that is unless i play a wizards who sits back and scratches his wizardy balls the whole quest, OR i metagame everything and manage to get majorly unharmed through all the quests. Lag is also an issue. A bad lag moment and BOOM either suck on 3 cure serious wounds potions or die.
Second, it's time. Firstly, you need to log and wait untill people are avilable. Sometimes that takes 5 minutes, others, it takes 2 hours. Let's leave it at mere 10 minutes, perhaps becuase you OOCly agreed to powerquest through IRC or somethign. It takes 30 minutes to get all the PCs to "finish" their stuff and be ready to quest toghether. Then, it takes about half an hour for each light quest, and about an hour for heavy quests, like orcs. This considering the time to reach there and stuff. So, you named goblins, trogs, harpies, snakes, gnolls, TOM, orcs, Ooze. That's 9 quests if we count both snakes 1 & 2, 4.5 hours. Plus the time to wait for people to be avilable, plus the time to wait for them to be ready, plus the time it takes for the rest in between quests...
sure, it's easy to get 1K cash through quests a day, if you an spend more than 5 hours dialy on EFU (or should i say waste? it's fine to play 2-3 hours, and the ocacional 8 hour marathon may be harmless if it is not frequent, but spending 5 hours dialy on EFU, or just in front of the computer, is really, a waste, no offence DMs, the gameworld is awsome.)
Unfortunately Im currently Unemployed, my uni degree doesnt start till september, and I've moved to the back ass of nowhere in NI. My play zone has a good amount of new and old players willing to quest, And im finding myself hoping off one quest to go onto another.
Sure im spending an unhealthy amount of time playing right now, unfortunately until I get a job to do the summer so I can afford to do something other than a Free MMO, i'll be wracking in alot of game time. And hopefully contributing to other peoples game times.
That said, the moment someone announces a quest and it shows on IIRC, you get alot of takers. Especially if its one of the harder lot.
Craig, no offence meant. If you felt my post was some kind of personal attack, it wasn't. I was actually grounding myself because i've spent too much time on the PC lately >.>
The problem with maintaining any form of stable economy (especially limiting inflation (//%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation%22), which is the issue at hand here) on EFU simply originates from the fact that every day, many thousands of gp enter the game, but not nearly as much leaves it.
Sure, there's things that remove coin from the game world (NPC merchants, pots'n'wands, patricianship), but these don't nearly take up as much gold, especially considering that pots'n'wands are basically investments that get you more gold over time (because you use them to win quests, etc).
In MMORPGs that try to simulate a stable economy, but deal with the same problems, they use money sinks for this end.
Basically, a money sink is something that costs a lot of money, but provides no real benefit. What you buy with money sinks is cool, because it allows you to make clear to other players how much money you have and thus how much better you are than them at playing the game.
If thought through, this system can work perfectly. A nice example of what could be considered a money sink on EFU are rentable inn rooms. They don't provide a real benefit (save for very limited storage, and a free rest area which doesn't save you nearly as much as it costs), but are nifty, cool places to RP in, there's only a few available, so it's special.
If developers put more of this stuff into the module, the sheer amount of gold can easily be pushed back to an amount where, say, two thousand gp is still a lot of money. Don't forget that in PnP, your average working guy has to work a few day at least to earn even a single gold piece. If we're to even consider that, the amount of wealth even your average poor PC has is just ridiculous.
Hmm, money sinks sound like a good idea, rooms, guildhouses and patricianship are already there, but we could add more, such as:
-The ability to modify your armor, helm, shields and weapons so they look the way you like it, for a price.
-The ability to change the hair colour, or perhaps even modify the head model (haircut) for a steep price.
-More rooms, some bigger, and more luxurious. Perhaps adding another inn, an "elite" inn that rents more expensive rooms to patricians with larger storage and that look a lot more luxurious.
-Horses. Even if they costed 10K gp, people would buy them if they existed on the module. A character with a horse would look so bad ass, too, that it would be the ultimate sinkhole IMO.
It's easy to make 3k a day. But only if you play certain types of pcs.
Some people know how to make the most efficient use of those garnets, gems, scrolls that drop on quests.
I could type a explanation of how to make $$$ on efu but I am to lazy.
To be honest, I know how to rake in 4k easily, but that is because I am half decent when it comes to finances. I don't mindlessly toss around gold, and I know how to ration and set budgets.
What? It doesn't take a mastermind to lay out your inventory in-front of a stall and make a sending, wait for offers, then put the gold into the bank. Plenty of people will be willing to sell things to you cheap as well. Like Sandstorm said, as your horde of treasures grows, and you buy and sell, three thousand a day isn't out of the question. (if you really enjoy sitting around bartering all day)
Anyone can do this with or without a great understanding of the server. Persistence, good relations, and sometime luck is key.
I once raked in 2k in a minute because I knew who to talk to.
Porkolt the economist broke it down perfectly. We can definitely use a few more of these money sinks. I think the perfect way to make some of these is to allow a bunch of aesthetic options that would not only help lowering the amount of gold, but also make things look a bit cooler. You can have exotic dyes available to be ordered for import for a steep price, or as Tannan said you can allow NPC crafters to modify armors and helms and such with some cool unique options (not sure how easy this is to implement).
I personally prefer to think of the ducat as a copper piece, not a gold piece. I also prefer to think of many thousands of gold being an assortment of gems as well as silver, gold, and platinum coins, not a wheelbarrow full of ducats. Thinking of it this way, it's not the most ridiculous thing in the world to be paid 15 ducats for delivering some soiled rags to a little girl, nor is it outlandish to think of someone carrying around many hundreds or thousands of ducats.
Anyway, more money sinks that take up gold but are entirely optional and aren't necessary for the survival of your character would be nice, like more inn rooms and other things would be nice, just to make me feel a little less poor when I walk around with 600 gold thinking I'm doing well, and then I see someone else handing over almost 10k gold for something.
Were it up to me, you'd all have 9 gold, rusty chainmail, a club, Duergar invisibility potion, and some rat meat.
Quote from: Secutor;186581Were it up to me, you'd all have 9 gold, rusty chainmail, a club, Duergar invisibility potion, and some rat meat.
Says the creator of "Pantless Plate" and "Crossbow?"
Quote from: Secutor;186581Were it up to me, you'd all have 9 gold, rusty chainmail, a club, Duergar invisibility potion, and some rat meat.
Is that why you once gave me 4000 gold? To buy those for the whole playerbase?
You mean Secutor actually gives you guys loot before you die? What the hell, Secutor?
I don't see where a "money sink" changes the fact that some players know how to get thousands of gold and others are happy to have over 500. A money sink only gives those that can make the money better things and keeps those that cant down. How does that help?
I'm not complaining, the fact that some play well enough to make that kind of coin shouldn't mean they should be punished. But it doesn't help those that cant figure how to get rich.
Example: Only taking half of of a players 400 gold in that mugging... Yet that players has spent days getting that 400 gold and they may not be able to come back from that kind of loss. Say the player of the "mugger" knows how to make thousands in a few hours so to him that 200 gold means nothing. To the player that doesnt know how, it means everything.
I have retired characters because they went broke.
I look at it like this, even IRL there are those that have money and those that struggle, and in between is the vast majority of us.
We can't all be the Trumps of the world. So I scrimp and save to buy X, where as he can do so on a whim. It's the same here. There are those that know the ways and can do it on every P.C, then there are those that can't keep 100 coin in their pockets, but the vast majority of us can at least keep 3-500 coin on us. If you want to buy that Armor, weapon, patrician status or what ever... well, you need to save for it.
I don't see a problem adding 'money sinks' to the game. It let's those that have the money, or even those that want to "Look like" they have the money a way to do it. Sort of like that person you knew that drove the holy hells hot car, but their house was a POS... it's all about perception.
But, that is just my .02 cents worth.
Calculor made Pantsless Plate and Crossbow?, you noob.
No comment. >.>
I believe that some now how to make money and are good at it. Others are not as good at it. I do not wish to make it easier for those who are not as good at it to make gold. I do not wish to limit the gold that the pro's can make.
But this is all new stuff ain't it?
http://www.escapefromunderdark.com/old_forums/viewtopic.php?t=13609&highlight=rich+4000
There are benefits to knowing the engine/ server. I just play my way and enjoy myself, and don't worry about anyone else. Don't worry about others, and play your way, IMO. I've never run into problems with powergamers or what-have-you. Often I've been very successful just playing my way, pretty incredibly successful actually. Do your thing and enjoy yourself, I say.
Hey guys, I don't mean to be nitpicky, but try to keep to the topic at hand.
It's not about how unfair it is that some players are better at making money than others, it's how there is, in total, too much money flowing around in the module.
As mentioned, some people are going to be rich, others are going to be poor. This isn't really a problem, because wealth doesn't provide any -real- benefit (especially if DMs implement more of those money sinks I mentioned earlier). Eventually, an influential PC is not made by the amount of gold he makes, but how interesting his concept is and how well he's played.
The more gold = better gear argument doesn't hold either, if only because DM loot often doesn't cost gold, just an investment of time and quality RP.
Well I think there's a balance to strike, between having PCs just be totally reliant on finding their supplies vs. having to buy some as well.
Some of the more recent changes I made were done with the theory that it's better for PCs to have some gold to buy things from merchants rather than just rely exclusively on questing to get the supplies they need/want.
So for example a lot of potion drops were nerfed, but a few minor changes were made to make it easier to make GP.
Generally I don't think the goldbloat is that bad (judging from access to our graphs), the ideal for me is a successful adventurer be able to make a little gold but for gold to still have meaning and be desired/in limited supply.
Obviously 3k a day seems way too high for me, but I do think that is the average player experience to earn that.
It would be helpful if players could PM me the exact means by which such high quantities of GP are earned. As always, opinions about what quests are too rewarding are also appreciated.
The money sink suggestions appear extremely suitable to me. I would definatley be interested in for instance, highly expensive inns or taverns for the elite and lords, with rentable luxurious rooms. This reminds me of the grotto in sanctuary, which was really fine.
Dyes are another such thing. As long as the price is put very steep, it would be kept rare and exotic. Still I am certain the richest characters would be wanting to purchase.
Absolutely SUCKS that you guys can find gold at all. I haven't made a single gold piece in EfUA in MONTHS!!!
:me[/color] shakes fist
I would say no, not really. I think there are some gold sinks around, but generally aside from a few spots of luck my characters seem to stay poor.
Quote from: Secutor;186581Were it up to me, you'd all have 9 gold, rusty chainmail, a club, Duergar invisibility potion, and some rat meat.
Hear.
Making gold is easy. All you need to do is mug a PC. (You know, the ones that brag about having money all the time.[/b]