Considering that the Docks is a dangerous and chaotic place where PVP and muggings are rife, it seems odd and counter-intuitive that characters based there have to carry all their money around on their person, whereas the relatively safer Dominion has two banks. I think a good idea would be a bank on Gull Rock, which functions like the old Grotto one used to. 500 gold flat fee to open an account, no further costs. A small operation consisting of a sleazy moneylender and a couple of dwarves with big, big axes. You could even have a "contact a DM for a loan" conversation option on him
It would be a valuable service to balance out the large reward potential of mugging someone not of the Dominion, and also a two way gold sink, both on the upfront cost and the ferry cost. Furthermore it would lead to more traffic to and from the island, and interesting encounters with various non-Dominion characters banking.
A good idea, considering that the Bank in traensyr also catered to PCs for a flat 1000 gold fee.
This is a grand idea. If not on Gull Rock, then even right in the Docks, make the fee's higher if need be than that of the Dominion's.
Keep in mind banks need civilized people to run them. If you choose to reject proper civilisation, get used to less services.
Scripted loans i'm not favorable to, because of PCs that just stop to play. Ask other PCs.
I'm actually against this. I find it silly for people living in the essentially anarchic docks and other areas to expect the sort of services and luxury provided by the lawful Dominion.
My second example would be the trader in the docks actually buying objects for more than Tobar does.
Not necesarily. Mobsers look like a perfect way to establish an non-law regulated bank that would want to keep their word, since it's in their own interest. The merchant's guild could do the job.
Quote from: Listen in Silence;190839I'm actually against this. I find it silly for people living in the essentially anarchic docks and other areas to expect the sort of services and luxury provided by the lawful Dominion.
My second example would be the trader in the docks actually buying objects for more than Tobar does.
Agreed.
Quote from: Listen in Silence;190839I'm actually against this. I find it silly for people living in the essentially anarchic docks and other areas to expect the sort of services and luxury provided by the lawful Dominion.
My second example would be the trader in the docks actually buying objects for more than Tobar does.
Agreed.
QuoteI find it silly for people living in the essentially anarchic docks and other areas to expect the sort of services and luxury provided by the lawful Dominion.
A simple bank's no a great luxury. As I suggested in the OP, a strongroom, banker and NPC hired muscle (off duty Sons maybe) would do it. it's simpler than a shop, as you only have to worry about one commodity, and keeping high security. The Merchant's guild could indeed do the job, or Gull Rock having a bank would lend it even more of a "free port" atmosphere, making it a tense and active area. The docks might be anarchic, but it's definitely capitalistic. Remember back in the early days of EfU we had the Malatesta Bank there before we had any civil authority or services.
A simple bank or moneylender's not complicated (the sons have a paymaster), and it's a good thing as it stops plots being derailed by arbitrary mugging or fugueing gold losses. Before Ladderman Hall was set up, Viordilai was walking about with 10-15 thousand gold stuffed down his socks. One lucky mugger, and poof, plan derailed, money likely spent fast. Banks encourage long term planning and more simmering levels of crime as PCs don't have their entire savings on them to lose. it's not something that can be PC-driven either as you can't store gold in chests, and there are both security (you can't have a PC standing guard all the time) and accessibility (if the banker's offline you can't gain access) issues.
QuoteMy second example would be the trader in the docks actually buying objects for more than Tobar does.
That's actually a counter-argument. The Docks trader buys items for 3 gp more but there is nowhere in the Docks to sell spare potions. or buy crafting supplies. It evens out as there are fewer general services available, and it makes sense that shopkeepers would pay at bit more where it's harder to get hold of goods.
LPFF, I never suggested scripted loans, I said add a "contact a DM about this" option, as a PC faction gaining the money upfront and then having to start profiting fast to pay back a loan shark sounds like a good plot hook and a distinct flavour to the bank.
I like the suggestion. I mean, I never use banks anyhow, but it seems like a cool idea.
Right, a bank in a lawless place, where gangs mug and rob everyday, what a fine idea.
I don't know if that's meant to be sarcasm, but yes, that's exactly why it is a good idea. I mean, there are shops selling valuable things in the same place. Although the suggestion was to site it on the aggressively neutral Gull Rock, anyway.
People who come in here moaning about how the Docks should not get a bank because there's anarchy everywhere don't know how the Docks work and should make a Docks PC to find out.
I don't know how the docks work, and yet, i support this idea. I insist, for a gangster in a lawless region, a bank is an exelent idea!
Sounds like a concept for a Touch of Class char though tbh lol if a place that is basically a slums gets their own bank.
Banks aren't always marble and stone, with men in fine clothing and educations. In a slum there's no reason why some ambitious gangster wouldn't create a bank of sorts, and make a killing of his own from it. Where there's a money to be made someone will find a way to manage it.
gj for saying what i said cap and you're confusing a loan shark with a banker, there is no way someone who create that sort of system, that a bank requires, in a place where money is so rare and reflected so in the streets and area.
Banks are based on trust. You put your money there and you trust it will stay there until you come back to withdraw it. How can a business based on safety, stability and trust work in a place where robbing is actually legal?
Now, a loan shark would be perfect for a slums environment.
yeah i mean what next?, have duergar manage the bank? gez! [ j/k]
<.< Oh, the bemoaning groans of thousands of coins lost
Guys-
Gull Rock
The perfect location. There's just no conflict there.
I think docks characters should periodically lose gold to reflect that they live in an environment of pickpockets and gangs.
When will Gram Fathands come to set up a bank? Please come, we are waiting for you.
Quote from: Nihm;191041I think docks characters should periodically lose gold to reflect that they live in an environment of pickpockets and gangs.
Most of us do...only we get mugged by either PCs, or NPCs. Which is kind of why this thread started. Even those characters who have access to places where they could stuff the gold in their mattress can't, they need to carry it. Which means a Docks PC can easily go from several thousand to nothing, whereas a Dominion PC with that much gold would almost certainly be a Patrician, and be banking gold for free.
This isn't to say that I don't understand the difference, because I do. Docks PCs should be at more risk, and they are. But I also wouldn't mind seeing some option to stash some gold away so a single, random mugging doesn't have the potential to derail a player faction that's depending on that gold to reach some goal.
Some kind of compromise, something costly and appropriate to the setting, seems like a valid idea to me. Whether or not it gets adopted is up to the gamestaff, though, and if nothing is done well then that means we'll just go along playing as we have been. But after all, that's why there's a suggestion forum, for suggestions.
Quote from: Damien;191027, there is no way someone who create that sort of system, that a bank requires, in a place where money is so rare and reflected so in the streets and area.
Considering that the problem is "docks PCs can gain money but lose it extremely easily", that's not exactly true. There are rich and poor PCs and NPCs alike in the Docks, and it makes sense the rich would be even *more* careful than in the Dominion as they have no legal protection from theft other than what they can personally arrange.
QuoteHow can a business based on safety, stability and trust work in a place where robbing is actually legal?
I'm not sure if anyone even read the first post before naysaying, but my suggestion was
"Put it not in the Docks but on Gull Rock where troublemakers of any kind get locked up to die". The title even read "neutral" bank not "docks" bank.
Alternatively, for the Docks:
Quote"Welcome to to Alastair, Cleric of Waukeen's Bank. The management thanks you for not stealing, and reserves the right to send merciless bounty hunters after anyone who does and cripple them beyond recognition."
Nobody robs the shops or shrines and they must have tens of thousands by now. Nor indeed the Sons' quartermaster.
Quoteyeah i mean what next?, have duergar manage the bank? gez! [ j/k]
We tried that before. They nicked it ;). In the early days of the Underdark setting, there was indeed a Duergar Bank.
As Capricious points out, there is no way to stash gold even in a faction HQ. or even for the Sons, I hear, other than their pay account. Also, loan sharks and bankers suffer from *exactly* the same issue of having to keep their money secure. I have always heard the idea of increased risk supposedly being linked to increased rewards on EfU, but this is an area where that certainly doesn't hold true. It's also something that is not directly solvable in-character, as there is no way to run a secure bank with PCs.
I personally like the idea of unique benefits to siding with the Dominion. It makes sense that those who support the powerful receive more privileges than those who live elsewhere!
I think it's best to keep the bank uniquely in the Dominion.
Money lenders have been around for centuries, as have people willing to look after your money for a fee.
In the middle east there would be literally, houses that got turned into forts with a lot of big men inside armed to the teeth and a man who would -sleep- on the treasure chest.
I don't see why, especially on somewhere like gull rocks, there couldnt be another bank. Hells, if it doesnt get implemented i'd be tempted to make it a pc goal for my next son or w/e.
Sick idea.
Quote from: 12 Hatch;191056I personally like the idea of unique benefits to siding with the Dominion. It makes sense that those who support the powerful receive more privileges than those who live elsewhere!
More shops, slaves, potential for Court power, greater security fom law enforcement, government... A bank is a very large benefit to not "people who actively side with the dominion" but "people who are passively able to go there unhindered". Patricianship is actively siding with the Armada, and offers significant perks like registered factions and legal freedoms. It does not make sense that nowhere other the Dominion would offer simple financial services.
The main rationale though is that you are taking a higher risk of crime and sudden conflict by living in the docks, and that risk shouldn't additionally be inflated by a complete lack of anywhere non-Dominion to store gold. Not just in case of muggings, but that its a good idea to have a "float " of a few hundred gold in case you get fugued alone and need to buy a couple of invis of a merchant, or other emergencies.
It's a sick opportunity for a PC to start a banking/loan shark business in the Docks.
Everything doesn't have to be scripted. :(
It wouldn't work with any degree of usefulness, Canzah. There's no persistent storage for gold, and it would simply exacerbate the problem of plots and savings relying upon one PC. You'd have to have a character carry the money, they'd have to be on regularly, and if they die or get robbed, the business goes tits up in 2 rounds. A banking system needs to be scripted in order to eliminate OOC issues from getting in the way. Loan sharking, though has worked, Yalta's done it, and I've sold items on credit.
I burn for Gram : (
If this is going to happen in the Docks, I recommend it be tied to one of the major, relatively stable factions as a way to secure an edge. To give people an incentive to side with the more developed Duchy, make it 2-3 times more expensive.
Bank on gull rock.
Perfectly reasonable, ICly sensible (being a neutral territory, not the DOCKS where babies get eaten and explosions happen as badass gangsters calmly walk away without looking back.)
And people still need to pay 50 gold or whatever to get there. There's your incentive to be a Dominion boy.
It seems like the Docks district has ended up being far less dangerous functionally for players than the setting would suggest. I'm not sure providing extra safeguards for Docksmen would do much except make the Docks seem even cuddlier despite being a run-down slum crawling with thieves, brigands, and ne'er-do-wells.
I'd be in favor of the implementation of things that would do the opposite of bank access - bring more danger to that place!
Which is why a neutral bank was suggested somewhere other than the Docks.
I'm all for the Docks having more criminal elements and becoming more dangerous to operate within but there does need to be some sense of balance and upsides to playing in the setting.
Having no place for successful Docks PCs to keep their gold is just ludicrous. If you could keep it in persistent storage, that'd be one thing, but such functionality does not exist. I know one recent Docks PC was forced to carry around around twenty thousand gold because of this.
Even storing it under a mattress would be fine, but no such options are available.
Just an option, would be enough. And frankly setting up a bank is not difficult in the least. Criminal NPCs would all welcome a bank themselves given the sorts of business it would allow them to put their gold into!
To be quite frank, having to carry huge amounts of gold around actually discourages PCs from engaging in criminal behavior. You've already got a lot of gold, why risk it for a few more here and there? If more conflict is wanted then there needs to be ways the criminals to protect their gains, otherwise they're just going to play it safer and safer so as not to tread on toes and lose 10k trying to get 200 gps off someone.
Coral Cove Bank, protected and overseen by Kozah and Umberlee fanatics. Go go go.
Why do people seem to think banks discourage criminality? Lots of crminals use banks, especially organised crime. How many mafia badasses and crime barons walk around with thousands tucked in their sock?
I think it was exact oposite what the post implied: When mugging someone you risk loosing your loot and gold, if you are a docksman and are carring 2k in your pocket, you are less likely to risk loosing them for a chance of earning 200 gold. If there was a bank the mugger can place most of his gold in the bank, and if he looses and is drylooted, he won't loose 2k, thus he is more willing to take the chance.
Having a bank somewhere outside the Docks for Docksmen would be nice. Honestly, a bank in the Docks would be a mugger hotspot. But a bank somewhere would really be helpful to have around.
I think a lot of people are getting hung up on the word 'BANK' and the connotations associated with the word.
BAILOUTS
ahhh its a bank they are going to come ask us to pay the mortgage for our homeloan
I'm not sure why everyone's freaking out about this. It's a good idea. There are two banks. TWO. Both are in dominion territory. It been said about five times that this suggestion was for Gull Rock, not the docks. Even if it were for the docks, the docks have pretty much nothing but flavor, to be frank. If they get a bank, it's not like they're suddenly going to become better or even equal to the dominion. The docks have like what, one freaking merchant? Who doesn't even sell a respectable amount of goods, just the bare essentials. It's kind of bumming me out that people who have characters in the dominion are whining sort of like a child who's being threatened with a toy being taken from away.
It makes sense for there to be a bank in Gull Rock.
It makes sense for some company in the docks to have a bank as well, and here's why: There are dozens of players based in the docks that have gone out of their way to make the area a prospering place. Most of the Laddermen, for example, or the members of the Illmatari Temple. I've seen it happening for the last couple of weeks. A bank popping up would reflect the efforts of those players.
Basically though, all the points have been made. At this point it's going to be squabbling over who is right and who is wrong. The suggestion is out there for the DMs, and it's up to them. The thread has served it's purpose, in my humble opinion.
"here friendly PC boppo hold on to my money and don't lose it i'll let you keep 10%"
bank created
Thier are gangs there.. they have the power to hold a bank and defend it? Well then let them make one, also when pcs go to make a place better that doesnt mean it -will- get better. It just means effort is being pushed towards that goal.
Also a bank in the docks would have to have somethign perhaps like a drain on the money you place in side perhaps a -.05% per reset that its in there, hence the taking of money by the greed gang that owns it.
Also, It could be plot material for a pc group to try and rob a bank if there was one in the docks. *Shrugs* Make it expensive..
Make it dangerous... Make it barely worth the trouble. And its docks material I think.
Derf, I already explained how PCs alone cannot create an effective bank. Lenthis, if it would be barely worth the trouble, who'd use it? The idea of implementing services is for them to contribute to better gameplay and RP, not be tokenistic. And, as I keep saying, It Doesn't Need To Be In The Docks. yes I'm working on a docks bank idea IC but thats because my PC has no real interaction with Gull Rock.