Currently, the water elemental perk's ability has no saving throw, and takes effect even if all of the elemental damage is blocked by elemental resistance. Meaning, no matter how high the saves, and even if you have protection from elements up, a ray of frost is an unavoidable several second stumbly-wumbly state where you move very, very slowly.
So, I suggest one or both of two things:
First, that there be some kind of saving throw the victim of this attack can make, given the immense power of slowing someone to an absolute crawl with a cantrip.
Second, that this effect not occur if all of the damage is resisted from elemental shielding.
The implementation of both of these in tandem may be a good idea!
Thoughts?
Agreed on this. The problem would complicate even more with icestorm becoming an aoe snare death trap.
My suggestion would be to add a rather high fortitude save as compensation.
Ray of Frost DC 15 fortitude save
Ice Storm DC 20 fortitude save
Cone of Cold DC 25 fortitude save
Or perhaps even higher than that.
While we're at it why not add saving throws to all the other special effects? save on the combust effect, on the lightning effect, a save to stop the ac drop on the acid effect?
They are all equally as strong as each other in different situations.
It seems like a lot of work for little gain.
One guy firing off cantrips can keep you permanently at a crawl. I'd say that's far more powerful than a little extra fire or electric damage, or an AC reduction. It's heavily encumbered speed, about!
One wizard with ball lightning and the electrical perk can rape you outright, one sorc spammign fire perk empowered combusts can floor a guy in a round or two. an acid focused wizard who can take a away a ton of ac from anyone they choose at any given time. All situational, all powerful. slowing down one orc when a horde is chasing you isnt going to do much. But electrical perk rapes the whole group.
As said before, it sound slike a lot of work for very little (if any) gain.
Well, I won't disagree this is a bit powerful for a cantrip. However I don't know that it's a great idea to nerf the perk totally when it comes to the higher level spells, since the slowing effect is all it does. If a save is added it should be very high, don't forget those AoE spells can catch allies too, so their use in some situations is often limited.
But Equinox is right, I've seen the other perks tear people apart. There's less cold spells than fire, electric, or acid spells, and other than Ray of Frost they're all higher level than the others as well. This is probably why you see the other perks in effect far more often than the water perk.
How long does the slow effect even last for?
Ah, but those things have counters. Combust can be countered with elemental resistance, for example! And many evocation spells can be dodged outright. For Ray of Frost to become a massive PVP powerhouse of a spell with no actual counter, well... that's probably not how the perk was intended to work!
I'm just proposing that -some- kind of counter becomes available!
It is one thing to have extra damage piled on, or even your AC reduced substantially, but it's quite another to be permanently slowed to a crawl because a mage has ray of frost and the perk. There is a reason the spell "Slow" has a saving throw!
Theres a nifty little spell called blur that blocks all spells lower than lvl 1....
This does sound overpowered - there is no way a cantrip should ever become a no-save slow.
Freedom of Movement should prevent this as should blur - but who cares? Not everyone has endless potions, nor should they have to have them in order to protect themselves against a cantrip.
There are only two spells which are feasibly available to most people taking the water perk-
Ice ray, and ice dagger.
Ice storm only if you hit level 7, or 8 if you are a sorcerer.
The Ice dagger already has a save attached to it. The Slow effect lasts for only 1-3 rounds, enough time to floor someone, but also enough time to counter it with a haste, a FoM, or a displacement.
.... Blur.. EVERONE has it honestly and if you dont get it. Ghostly visage is the most used spell and the easiest to come by, If you have it on your not slowed easy as that.
I am the reason hes making this post honestly xD Beacuse when we were getting mauled to death I slowed him with a slow that lasts about 1 round.. the slow for an ICe ray lasts only 1 round.. So its not over powered beacuse with everyone who saw it we got pummeled into dust, At best a mage can keep throwing the rays at you. But why would he? When he can use more powerfull spells. That was all I had left and If I had something better I would have thrown it.
The effect is the only + really to the elemental perk besides the flame weapon to Ice weapon. As the saves are often not used, and Its really the only perk to my doctor the cryo mage.
I think they shouldnt have saves as its a slight augmentation
To the spell to show you power behind it, if you made a save every fighter and his grandmother would make it which would be annoying and rediculous.. Espec when the instant fail on a one is no longer valid on saves.
And lets be honest, how many people take the water perk when compared to say, the air perk, fire perk? Or even the earth perk...
I simply think protection from elements ought to protect you from the freezing effect. If the spell does 0 damage, there ought not be such a powerful effect.
Quote from: 12 Hatch;191296I simply think protection from elements ought to protect you from the freezing effect. If the spell does 0 damage, there ought not be such a powerful effect.
I agree there.
Its the ice surronding you and slowing you, even if it doesnt hurt it still cocoons about you. Thus the slow, and if your so worried about said effects use blur. So then next time you decide to assult a group of people and such, thier spells cant hurt you done and done.
For something like Ice Storm, you may be right!
But I think we can all agree it's a bit of a stretch to say that a simple cantrip like Ray of Frost can somehow form a freezing cocoon that defies even the strongest of elemental protections.
It just seems odd for such a powerful effect to come from such a cantrip, unavoidably (excluding blur / freedom of movement).
Perhaps if the amount of speed reduction was based on the spell, so ray of frost provided a slight slow, while the more powerful cold spells got progressively more slowing?
12 Hatch is bringing up a point Lenthis, he isn't complaining about the effect he won PvP, and could of won still regardless of what you did or I tried. He is merely expressing his concern over the possibility of instant no-save spell which slows a person down to the point of immobility.
It's incredibly powerful.
Keep in mind, then ray of frost would have to be something like 25% dagger 35% Storm 60% cone of cold 75%
I think its fair as the spells progress to levels only the dedicated could reach its power grows greatly.
I agree! It makes complete sense that the high level cold spells have devastating effects. A progression like the one you listed would be nifty.
there are so few cold spells, i think the whole point of the perk was to make it so they are useful instead of every mage using fire and lightning like it has mostly always been
Basically my quick summary:
1. There's very few cold spells are aside from the cantrip and ice storm they are rarely used.
2. Slowing someone isn't that much more powerful than making their AC so low you can hit them to the floor.
3. The only AoE cold spells come at 4th+
4. No other elemental perk has a save.
5. Water is probably chosen least out of them anyway (from what I've seen)
There are saves for fire/electric. Everytime you cast an aoe lightning spell your log gets filled up with a hundred reflex saves.
Reliquish is right.
12Hatch (as much as his avatar creeps me out) is right too.
Keep it as it is, just add a save. Make it something like 11 + (spell level)x2
The reason this perk is good is that not having a save makes it a kick in the balls to saves-built or evasion Pcs that can normally screw up a mage, as it lets you get out the way. A save would defeat the object. Ray of frost is blocked by blur, as is Ice Dagger. No change needed, it's perfectly fair. And generally counterable. Water spells other than icestorm are all sub par. Shorter ranger, higher level for the same effect, one target rather than AOE...
Potion chugging should not be able to solve everything either.
Blur is a very commonplace potion, as well.
I would say a save is definitely important; yes, okay, a spell can protect it, but all you need is a single dispel and a Wizard/Sorc with this effectively has a no-save Knockdown / Tanglefoot to screw over anybody trying to run away; fixable yes but I'm pretty sure that's crazy op for a cantrip.
Remove all elemental perks from Cantrips imo; stacking -10 AC or something on boss fights or a guaranteed, unresistable slow effect in PvP are both a bit of a downer.
O_0
One major bonus of the perks is they makes cantrips useful and flavourful. They are easily blocked in PVP and frankly participartion by mages in fighting should be encouraged. Dispel should be powerful in combos. These perks do that by allowing a "ranged Taunt", or a slow to save someone, or minor AoE off cantrips. They give PCs with the perk a way to be consistently useful ins a PVP with careful dispellin too, not just "blamgank".
Slow is also much less dangerous than KD or entangling. It reduces speed, but it doesn't reduce AC, doesn't apply spellfailure, doesn't reduce DEX and doesn't immobilise the PC and prevent them taking actions.